Do you hate Feminists?

overcontrol · 2012-04-02T03:51:15+00:00

I hate misandrists. The feminist movement has a lot of them. I have nothing against those who fight for the rights of women and against misogyny.

EvilPundit · 2012-04-02T00:25:06+00:00

I hate feminism, not individual feminists.

This is because I believe in equal rights for both genders, while feminism only supports rights and privileges for women.

SpeakToTheSky · 2012-04-02T04:36:44+00:00

No, we are not fighting for the same thing. Your claim has been factualy and logically debunked about 5 billion times in this subreddit.

Feminism is abut female supremacy. Men's Rights is genuinely supportive about rights for men and women.

On top of that, it is Feminists who hate the concept of Men's Rights with a vicious passion. Any claim to the reverse is projection.

pcarvious · 2012-04-02T05:50:04+00:00

This is a model used and created by feminist authors

It explicitly states that men are the only ones that can commit domestic violence. It makes no mention of the possibility of men being the victim of domestic violence. This stems from a bigger problem. It assumes that society is a Patriarchy, a system that oppresses women for the benefit of men and only men. When men are oppressed at all it's benevolent sexism.

This is the problem. Anything that might detract or challenge the modern dichotomy of victimhood is repressed or isn't serious. Even when evidence stands against this assumption it's detracted or considered false.

Edit: Visual representation of the Duluth Model

Edit 2: Some people have tried to adjust the Duluth Model to be a genderless model.

yangtastic · 2012-04-03T07:56:13+00:00

No, we aren't fighting for the same thing at all.

Feminism isn't about equality. "Chairman", "spokesman", and "stewardess" are not gender-neutral words, and neither is "feminism".

Rather, feminism is about female advocacy.

Conversely, the MRM is about male advocacy.

Now, back in the day, female advocacy was a great idea. Just watch some early seasons of Mad Men. Unexamined centuries of cultural bullshit are bad news.

The problem is that there has been a women's rights movement. For decades. It's kind of a big deal. There simply has not been any sort of analogous movement for men, and... unexamined centuries of cultural bullshit remain bad news, even when said cultural bullshit applies to men rather than women.

Now, you claim to be an egalitarian. Awesome, me too. But I'm also an MRA, though I hope to be one only temporarily. Here's how this works.

As egalitarians, we're committed to the claim that individual human beings, not any community or identity, are the locus of moral relevance. This makes a lot of sense. It's that "We hold these truths to be self-evident" moment in the Declaration of Independence. Indeed, all great evils of history can be viewed as a failure to treat individual human beings with the rights and dignity they deserve. Really, just think: Holocaust (all genocide, really), Slavery, Inquisition, Crusades, Terrorism, Ethnic Cleansing, whatever. As difficult as absolute statements can be when you're thinking about ethical frameworks, this one actually fucking works.

As such, there aren't really any men's rights or women's rights, no black rights or gay rights, no Jewish rights or Kurdish rights or Irish rights, only human rights. Here, lemme prove it. A common argument to the contrary would be that cultures are inherently valuable, especially minority cultures, because they are cultures. But if we're committed to the claim that cultures are inherently valuable, then we're committed to the claim that German culture circa 1941 is inherently valuable, what with the Lebensraum and the whole nine yards.

No, indeed, cultures are complex sets of values and propositions which are independently awesome and/or fucked up. Note that this would mean that some aspects of minority cultures are almost certainly inherently valuable. Note also that this in no way legitimates cultural chauvinism on the part of the majority culture or anybody else.

Rather, the American, and perhaps now simply modern democratic, challenge is to affirm and critique all cultures simultaneously. To have our nation be an ethnicity of ideas, such that that which defines "Us" and "Them" is what we believe, and no accident of birth.

The problem is that it's not that fucking simple.

See, people deserve their rights as individuals, but they are denied their rights as groups. Enter advocacy movements, stage left. They're vitally necessary, especially because discrimination is so often unconscious. Boys are 86% of all adolescent suicides. Now the problem isn't just the extremely lopsided number, because I don't think for a second that it'll ever hit 50/50 because men kill themselves more than women in every country in the world except China (which just goes to show how much China needs its own flavor of feminism) and teenage boys are awash in three to five times the testosterone of a grown man (Spoiler Alert: They'll always wreck cars more than anybody else too.). No, the real problem is that boys are EIGHTY SIX PERCENT of adolescent suicides and that nobody knows or cares.

Now, what about feminism and feminists? Eh, I'd say a lot of MRAs don't really hate the 19-year old girl who took Women's Studies 101 and might call herself a feminist, but has awesome relationships with her dad, her brothers, and her boyfriend, and doesn't intend to fuck up the latter's life.

Now, by contrast, I'd say most MRAs would hate the people who drafted the rape laws of most states, the letter of which would indicate that her boyfriend is "raping" her every weekend, because they're in college they have frequently have sex after she's had one or more drinks, which legally "impairs her consent". (I polled one of my classes in college. Over 90% of the female population of the class had been "raped" according to the state law.")

The real problem, though, is that continued female advocacy, in 2012 in western democracies, in the wake of the "he-cession" that left women the majority of the workforce, in light of boys being 86% of adolescent suicides, in light of the current education gap debacle (check US census bureau education press releases), etc. etc.... is simply no longer justified.

Sure, sure, everybody's all worked up over Rick Santorum. Listen, Roe vs. Wade isn't going anywhere, and anybody who's scared that it might needs to consult a doctor, a lawyer, or both. Let's just say that if it does, then privacy law in this country will have degraded to the point that we have waaaaay bigger fish to fry than gender politics. Besides, with as much as MRAs hate their current lack of reproductive agency, the MRM is hardly the problem here.

The only argument I think the feminists have that might be legitimate is that last time I checked, viagra was often covered by health insurance while birth control was not. Then again, last time I checked that stat was pre-ACA, so that might not be a accurate stat.

The problem is that although feminism conquered its way all the way to the Supreme Court, it hasn't stopped carpet-bombing everything. At a certain point, the war for feminism needs to stop and people need to win the peace.

But feminists aren't. They're sucking all the air out of the room, and meanwhile, children are dying. Go watch Bully. All the suicides and almost all the victims are boys. Yes, the gay girl has a ton of fucked up shit happen to her out in rural Oklahoma, but in the end, you get the feeling that she's gonna be OK. Now not all girls end up that way, and that's bad, and shouldn't be ignored--I'm just saying that the way things stand, they're less likely to be ignored. By contrast, when Alex's mom is talking to his dad, she says that he's part of the problem, and it comes out that Alex never sees his dad cry. There's also a scene where Alex's dad tells him he has to be strong and fight back, for the sake of his little sister, lest she take shit for being related to him. His own welfare is apparently not enough to be concerned about. Now Alex's dad is just going with what he knows. What HIS dad taught him. There is a major need for an examination and reconstruction of masculinity in our culture, but feminists don't even want us to have that conversation. Instead, they wonder, "where have all the good men gone?" and bemoan the rise of the "manchild", searching desperately for somebody who will "man up", or asking at the end of the day, "Are men really necessary?"

Moreover, feminists demand all this airtime using intentionally misleading data and arguments. Last I checked, NOW's website's stuff on the pay gap cited a study by the American Association of University Women, which... I'm sure is a paragon of objectivity... but wait, they don't even cite the study entirely. When they quote the paper, the quote has a little "..." which leaves out the actual numbers in the paper, because they aren't the same numbers as the headline on the page. They're dealing in cognitively fluent narrative, not truth.

By contrast, when MRAs talk wage gap, they cite Warren Farrell, a man who was elected to the NOW board of directors three times back in the day, and who didn't conduct a study to get his data--he consulted census data. You can't quibble with his sample--there is no sample. It's just a fucking census.

Similarly, that adolescent suicide statistic? Check the article again. That's not a foundation with an axe to grind. That's the goddamn CDC.

Domestic violence? Turns out, 50% is reciprocal. Of the non-reciprocal, 70% of that is female on male. Source? CDC again. Sorta makes sense when you realize that every little boy is told that you don't hit girls from the time he's about two years old. Other MRA DV sources would include Erin Pizzey, who founded Refuge, a UK organization for victims of domestic violence, but who has been curiously scrubbed from Refuge's history page because she came to the conclusion that women can be perpetrators of domestic violence ALSO. As such, today, a father in the UK trying to keep his kids safe has almost nowhere he can take them.

So do I hate "feminists"? Naw. Too many people claim the title out of ignorance. They're still fucking wrong, and should be corrected, because their ignorance can still fuck the world up, but it's better to educate, not hate.

Do I hate people who perpetuate a world where fathers and children are victims of violence with no escape, where boys kill themselves in droves while nobody notices, where men are assumed to be morally inferior to women, where boys are ever more poorly educated, and most importantly, where nobody knows and nobody cares?

You bet your ass I do. At this time, in this place, it's the only move a real egalitarian can make.

RyanLikesyoface · 2012-04-02T00:12:35+00:00

You are both after all, fighting for the same thing.

this is not correct. Feminists do not all fight for equality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JymN5yu-K_o&t=6m30s

JockeVXO · 2012-04-02T02:16:32+00:00

I loathe feminism, and certain feminists. We are not fighting for the same thing.

Feminism is the ideology of gynocentrism which seeks to maintain and expand female privilege.

The MRM is not an ideology, we're a political movement, in what area do we espouse a wish for male privileges? We are fighting for legal equality: Equal rights, equal responsibilities/duties/obligations, equal protection and punishment under the law. All of these are areas where men are disadvantaged and women advantaged, this is what ideological gynocentrism has brought us.

I support men's rights and women's rights, not feminism (I've never been quite clear on what masculism actually entails, so I can't say if I support it or not).

Shuda7 · 2012-04-02T01:40:57+00:00

I had a feminist teacher in high school. Not once did she compliment or acknowledge a male student for giving a valid point in class. I understand that women do need rights, but most feminists do not see it in that aspect. To some, they think they need to be better than men, which is horrible. That's reverse authority, you are not being any better than us in any way at all. Don't be a feminist, be a humanist, someone who believes in rights for EVERYONE.

levelate · 2012-04-02T00:31:53+00:00

ah, language, it is so malleable.......

also, where is the bot thingy.

giantsnappingturtle · 2012-04-02T07:27:39+00:00

I don't hate feminists, I hate Patriarchy theory.

edit: changed "we" to "I" because I don't speak for everyone here...

CheapCheepChirp · 2012-04-02T09:02:03+00:00

"If so, please tell why. You are both after all, fighting for the same thing."

Feminists are fighting to persecute men.

MRAs are fighting against that.

So no, not the same thing at all.

Good luck next time, though. I really enjoy all these feminists coming here and femsplaining to us how we've got it all wrong and they just want to be friends.

Edit: I take the last paragraph back. Having read further down the thread I no longer consider you a concern troll.

2012-04-02T12:58:11+00:00

no i hate radical feminists who feel just because they are a woman they're owed the world

BlackWind13 · 2012-04-02T13:50:07+00:00

I strongly dislike Feminists. I do support and like women's rights activities.

I believe that in order to see real change, we will need to be a united force. We have to acknowledge unfair treatment of both sexes and work together to find the answers. Pushing blame across does us no good. Only united can we all make a difference.

ExpendableOne · 2012-04-02T14:18:54+00:00

Feminism is not fighting for equality, and it is most definitely not "fighting for the same thing"(history has shown time and time again that feminism has either ignored male issues, perpetuated male vilification, outright opposed male egalitarian efforts and actually instigated a significant amount of social atrocities of their own). Your base premise is false and the misconception is as harmful as it is insulting. By claiming a monopoly on social gender issues(male or female), exploiting chivalry, framing every gender issue as an effect of female oppression or through feminist bias; they have marginalized all male issues, and all men, and warped the cause for gender equality. Everything about feminism - from the misandry is still actively promotes to the sense of female solidarity it demands, along with the blissful ignorance, double-standards and hostile delusions they use to justify themselves through it all - is detrimental to all men.

Grapeban · 2012-04-02T10:44:07+00:00

No, not at all. I identify as a feminist (and a masculinist (but not an MRA, I don't like the connotations that go along with that identity)).

I think that the main problem with the MRM is that it's set itself up in opposition to feminism, which is weird, since you think it's primary enemy would be the sexism in society, which feminism is also opposed to.

If the MRM stopped attacking feminism and instead worked with it, then we could probably accomplish our goals much more effectively, since I firmly believe that the problems facing men and women are generally connected, so solving one often helps the parallel problem for the other gender.

Trol1z0r · 2012-04-02T07:21:51+00:00

Feminism, the idea that you can make both sexes equal by focusing on the problems of one of them.- The Amazing Atheist

Jesus_marley · 2012-04-02T13:35:23+00:00

I don't think it is a questions of hating Feminists but rather Feminism. As a political philosophy, it is horribly misandric and serves no useful purpose in the overall struggle for equality. Individual feminists however run the gamut from misandric to egalitarian. In a sense though, while some may hold to the idealistic definition of feminism that it stands for equality, identifying yourself as a feminist when the movement had demonstrated itself to be anything but about equality, you risk being tarred with the same brush. Basically, Feminism as a movement taints the moderate egalitarian members with it's misandry. Do I hate them? no. I do however try to inform them as to why the philosophy is flawed and corrupt and usually encourage moderates to embrace egalitarianism as a philosophy as it is more in keeping with their views on gender. Unfortunately, Feminism has built up a lot of PR among women since it caters directly to their interests so it is difficult to separate oneself from it.

HalfysReddit · 2012-04-02T14:16:25+00:00

Not at all. I consider myself one actually.

Those women you see berating us men simply for being men? They're not feminists. A true feminists would do whatever it took to benefit their cause, even if it meant acknowledging the other (supposedly privileged) sex. They're douchebags, and nothing more. Just like we don't allow the douchebag men of this world taint our image, we shouldn't let the asshole women of this world taint theirs.

2012-04-02T17:03:38+00:00

why can't we see each other as people, not the genitalia we have, if the men who hate women and the women who hate men, can just agree that we are human, and equal, we would all be given equal rights and responsibilities, the world just needs to get past bigotry, but i am a dreamer.

my_little_mutation · 2012-04-02T13:09:36+00:00

I used to be a feminist and /r/mensrights has shaken my worldview pretty badly. I thought I was one of the good kinds of feminists... my biggest area of interest to this day is gender socialization and how it affects development, personality and socialisation and I have always argued that men suffer just as much in areas of social control, while the womens rights battle should be focusing on equal pay and equal consideration for job opportunities.

After coming on here and reading about all the extremists out there, I dont even want to consider myself a feminist anymore. I was shocked that so many women were actively working against mens rights.

How can you be an equal rights advocate and then turn around and do something like that?

(btw, im female.)

AnonTheAnonymous · 2012-04-02T01:34:30+00:00

No.

They are, like any special interest group, self interested. You wouldn't get angry with veterans groups for not supporting solely gay rights issues, gay rights groups not supporting solely racial discrimination issues, or racial discrimination groups not supporting issues only related to disability advocacy. It is outside their area. Each of these movements shares a desire for equality and fair treatment.

We have to be realistic that feminism is a group that usually ends up supporting women's issues, rather than issues for all as it claimed to. It is unfortunate that they claim to be the sole holders of the banner of equality.

InfallibleBiship · 2012-04-02T19:07:56+00:00

First off, Feminism is not fighting for equality. You need to understand that point before you can understand the point of view of the MRM.

The MRM has very little power and Feminism has huge tracts of power. This means that there is a powerful element looking out for issues affecting women, and no corresponding power looking out for men (other than a few lucky men at the top). If the power balance were more equal, I wouldn't hate Feminism as much.

bohowannabe · 2012-04-02T04:04:05+00:00

With every fiber of my being. I hate them because their aim was never equality at all. They wanted to take over. They wanted ego validation and they stopped at nothing to achieve it.

How can anyone look at the shit end of the stick men are getting now a days and not hate feminists.

But the biggest reason of all to hate them is that they were just a toil used by the big dollar corporatists to get another cheap labor force so they could keep their scam running for another few generations. All those big talking feminists were just a tool to rally women together and get them fired up to the do the bidding of the bastards who own this country.

Women votes and women workers are the reason why unions have no power now. When it comes to standing up the government for what is right FOR ALL females just do not have the guts to take the necessary risks to safeguard the freedom and thus the future of our species.

kragmoor · 2012-04-02T04:01:28+00:00

i hate dumbasses

2012-04-02T09:52:59+00:00

The mens movement is mobilised against laws and misinformation that feminism creates and supports.

Feminism has been covering up domestic abuse by females against men by decades and creating the false impression that DV is gendered in order to support patriarchy theory and manipulate the system. Link to paper here http://www.reddit.com/r/mensrightslinks//comments/rnu4t/dvpaperprocesses_explaining_the_concealment_and/

But if you try and talk to average feminists about it, they scoff and mock.

RubixCubeDonut · 2012-04-02T23:42:35+00:00

Yes, I do, for much of the same reason I hate the majority of drivers on the road: because I see them doing thoughtlessly selfish things on a daily basis, constantly degrading the quality of life for everybody including themselves but mentally twisting and squirming to convince themselves that they're doing the opposite.

In the case of feminism I see, at best, a lot of "useful idiots" clinging onto the "equality" leg of feminism (claiming that feminism is synonymous with the word) and blatantly ignoring that the other leg is the a priori assumption that this is (or was) achieved via raising the status of women.

I will not accept that assumption without evidence and everything I've been shown has been a deliberate misrepresentation (if not a complete fabrication) of facts. And yet people still believe "women are (or were) oppressed" is still simply a "fact" we shouldn't question therefore we shouldn't assume that second leg of feminism makes any difference when in reality it makes all the difference.

I don't have much faith in humanity, though, when even a ton of MRAs accept the feminist historical narrative while choosing to ignore the blatant holes in it.

aetheralloy · 2012-04-02T10:16:36+00:00

I despise feminism because of this statement I see nearly everyone either use or support: "We live in a patriarchy so these two acts are not equivalent." that they use to dismiss all the bigoted anti-male acts that are out there.

Until feminism as a whole actively opposes such hateful double-standards towards men - feminism is the enemy.

Title	Do you hate Feminists?
Author	RyanLikesyoface
Upvotes	15
Comments	130
Date	April 1, 2012 10:12 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/rokrn/do_you_hate_feminists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/do-you-hate-feminists.1024851 https://theredarchive.com/post/1024851

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