Genuine question here

D_Luffy_32 · 2023-06-13T06:38:52+00:00

As someone who's friends with multiple ftm trans people. They have said they realized that being a man has its own issues. They thought that they would just stop experience misogyny and their life would be perfect once they were passing. And as the became more and more passing they saw a transition from experiencing misogyny, to transphobia, to a whole new type of bigotry which they didn't understand at first which was misandry.

They at first couldn't understand why even though they were very passing they were getting treated like shit and it actually caused gender dysphoria because they thought people were still being transphobic and people could somehow tell they were trans. It wasn't until they had insults directly at them being men that they realized it was misandry. Long story short, yes trans men are a big part of men's rights. As it can make gender dysphoria worse and the overall transition worse.

chupasway · 2023-06-13T03:21:28+00:00

They don't experience circumcision, family courts, or the draft ( I think?).

Vaudeville_Clown · 2023-06-13T10:44:06+00:00

Partially. There will be times and places were they walk into the same social dynamics we do. This especially if it isn't possible to see they're trans. Although they lack the experience of growing up as a boy child, which is a disadvantage here, they do have a unique position to compare how adult men and women are treated differently.

Other than that, they tend to belong in subcultures which are very woke and high on gender ideology. This, in my book, is more of a disqualifier to being an MRA than anything else. Often though, they find that they can't stomach all the shit talk about men there "but you're totally an exception/one of the good ones!" any longer. In which case I say, welcome!

duhhhh · 2023-06-13T02:47:55+00:00

Trans men face issues because they are trans, which is more trans' rights, and issues because they are men, which is more men's rights. Most of those issues would go away if everyone had human rights.

iainmf · 2023-06-13T05:42:01+00:00

It’s not the gender/sex of the person being discriminated against that makes it a men’s rights issue, it’s if the person who is discriminating is doing it because they believe you are a man. It’s like a person is being discriminated against because someone thinks they are gay is a gay rights issue, regardless of whether the victim is gay or not.

zourz · 2023-06-13T04:23:43+00:00

Trans people are properly better served by a community for the specific group. That's not to say you can't join and be concerned about the issues of men. We do have mother's here concerned about their sons, and sisters concerned for their brothers. It is just a place to talk about issues as they relate to men.

PizzaLikerFan · 2023-06-13T03:58:02+00:00

What is a man?

JayMeadows · 2023-06-13T03:58:35+00:00

I guess so.

Since they'll have to put up with the same shit we do. Most will obviously be ill-prepared to deal with the reality of being a guy, so if you're gonna identify as a Man, then yeah, for sure. We're in this shit boat together.

One_Bunch_7770 · 2023-06-13T13:20:36+00:00

Socially yes, especially if they pass as a man. Legally, no because they are privileged in the sense that they have never faced male genital mutilation, don't have to face longer sentences, don't have to sign up for the draft etc.

I think we should be welcoming of trans men who want to fight for mens rights just like we should be welcoming of women or non binary people.

BetterOffCamping · 2023-06-13T03:47:29+00:00

I don't see why not. In all regards on the surface, they are perceived as men. Only if he plays the trans card will anybody see otherwise.

Certainly, he does not have the same lifelong experience that shapes men, but that is a matter of personality and experience, and discrimination is not about those things. It is about how people treat one based on surface appearance and internal prejudices.

PupCourage · 2023-06-13T05:21:02+00:00

If it walks and talks like a duck it's a duck. I understand why people disagree with me on this though... but I really don't like to over complicate things. I don't like alternative pronouns in general... I think we've been thinking of people in he/him she/her for centuries and that the human mind needs to stop overcomplicating stuff. So if someone is ftm just call them for what they are or identify as... a dude. I don't think anyone signs up to be shat upon willingly anyway... which is basically what being a dude has become.

Njaulv · 2023-06-13T05:04:54+00:00

Mens rights and trans rights I would say they fall under if you want to boil it down, but human rights are the starting point I think we should all be at first.

Terrible-Ad9335 · 2023-06-13T16:29:07+00:00

No. They get all the attention and sympathy the moment they go on camera and cry. Its not the same at all

UnconventionalXY · 2023-06-13T07:53:09+00:00

I think the question highlights how society has lost focus of what is important: just like MensRights may not include trans-men and other diverse individuals yet to be identified, WomensRights may not include trans-women and other diverse individuals yet to be identified; therefore MensRights and WomensRights do not cover everyone in society and trying to apportion them only complicates matters unnecessarily.

It's not about pursuing mens or womens competing rights in a diverse world that contains more than just men and women, but fundamental egalitarian equal rights that cover everyone.

MensRights has served its purpose of highlighting where rights for men are deficient in comparison to everyone else and the womens rights movement has highlighted where rights for women are deficient in comparison to everyone else. Consequently I really think MensRights should be transferred to Egalitarian rights to discuss rights to cover everyone, and laws to support them, with ways to implement them to reduce friction between diverse people.

It's all very well to hear cases of women receiving greater sentences than before to better equal men, but it doesn't address the reality that the justice system is no longer blind but biased in favour of particular genders and the accuser and using the justice system itself to punish.

Perhaps a discussion of rebalancing of the justice system is in order, including the modification of such atrocities as Title IX to prevent it being used to bypass the justice system, as well as individuals being able to punish others through their authority without the checks and balances of the justice system (eg bosses being able to cancel the livelihood of an employee based only on allegation). Loss of livelihood is a severe punishment for many people that should not be done arbitrarily or on accusation only.

Eventually we also have to tackle the drift in the justice system from objective harms that can be measured, to subjective harms that can't and the blind eye turned to extra-judicial punishment in prisons by lynch mob.

Another principle we have not yet tackled is the right to sexual expression not being held hostage to the wishes of another.

But these higher level rights should be discussed under r/Egalitarianism because they should never be gendered.

Zook-Cantaloupe-7970 · 2023-06-13T17:20:19+00:00

The trans man in this video still found a way to attack me on the basis of being a cis man (not to mention my race but whatever) as he said "the feelings of women and others about cis white men are real and valid" despite bitching about how he supposedly feels being a man is hard.

I'm guessing the majority of trans whatever are like this so I do not consider them a part of the men's rights movement at all. If we check the causes they support they're almost certainly zealous opponents of this movement, I would guess.

Angryasfk · 2023-06-13T06:36:46+00:00

It depends upon whether it’s a trans issue or a man issue!

Marvinkmooneyoz · 2023-06-13T10:47:03+00:00

Yes and no, its going have to be context specific. If they are treated assumptively in the same way biologically born men are, then it fits in mens rights. I dont know how courts handle child custody situations if they find out one parent is trans male, if they treat such a person they would a bio male or a bio female. I imagine that info is always known by the court at least.

anonymeaime · 2023-06-14T03:20:10+00:00

apollyoneum1 · 2023-06-13T10:31:07+00:00

Let’s try to be as different to TERFs as possible. All welcome. Even cis women. Even ex feminists.

Za__guy · 2023-06-13T03:27:36+00:00

Hell no

Did people really consider them men?

I will pass the biology and assume it's a good trans (who you will be mistaken as man). The worst what he could face as a men is the assumptions from strangers (which I am not against since it's just culture and view)

But anyone know him won't treat him as a man in any regard. He will get the trans treatment but not the man (I am even including his family)

Like he won't have problem with accusation of sexual assult or rape.

Rude_Shock343 · 2023-06-13T15:45:26+00:00

if you weren't born with a penis and xy chromosomes, you are not biologically a "man"

Puppyboy321321 · 2023-06-13T10:43:07+00:00

Just watched a Better Bachelor on Locals about this. Not the same.

Stunning-Cost-5752 · 2023-06-13T12:57:14+00:00

I'd say no.

It comes down to it how many would revert to being female when it suits them? If they were eligible for the draft, how many would be women again?

Prison same thing how many would go back to being female to avoid a men's prison

Sad-Supermarket-9793 · 2023-06-13T14:25:52+00:00

I'll give this as a warning, remember the civil rights movement, and how it was taken over by feminist, and then pushed to the side? Same thing will happen to men's rights, I promise you that. So stay vigilant.

Catch-the-Rabbit · 2023-06-13T04:57:20+00:00

For the standard of this subreddit I would say no.

Only due to the fact that alot of the issues on this subreddit don't pertain to women in the least.

Trans men would only be seen as a woman to some, invalidating their identity.

I would encourage you to find a more welcoming subreddit. Shit gets a little too budlight up in here.

penisland_citizen · 2023-06-13T02:35:31+00:00

Trans men are men. So yes.

CanniBal1320 · 2023-06-13T06:52:38+00:00

Yes they do. They have been living their whole life presenting as a woman and they don't know/aren't prepared for the shit that's about to come tackle them. We r in this boat together

horonlapsi · 2023-06-13T10:32:16+00:00

yes ofcourse if they look like men they will be treated like men and also alot of questionable opinions here

Ill-Menu5401 · 2023-06-13T11:42:25+00:00

From what I've read, FtMs also face the exact same discrimination issues that cismen face, so yes.

josip333 · 2023-06-13T13:46:19+00:00

I'm a trans man who started transitioning at 12. I honestly never experienced misogyny, because I always presented as something "in between" and was never socially seen as a girl. Then, when I started transitioning and passing, I was seen as a man. I think I experienced all the struggle cis men have to put up with, excluding circumcision, but that is not experienced by a lot of cis men too, especially here in Europe. I really don't see why trans men shouldn't be a part of men's rights movement, as long as they live in society as man.

whtsnk · 2023-06-13T10:21:08+00:00

100%.

PositiveBoat · 2023-06-13T12:48:43+00:00

Metraxis · 2023-06-13T10:11:21+00:00

A trans man who passes will have a man's social problems, and, depending on jurisdiction, may also have a man's legal problems, so generally, yes.

sand_snapes · 2023-06-13T14:41:35+00:00

Just to give a trans male perspective here, since I have fully transitioned (legally, medically and socially) I just live as a male and being trans is not an issue. Sure there are situations this difference may be important, but I am yet to see them. There are trans people who live as trans more than as one or other sex, but this is not the case for binary, passing + stealth trans men.

Akuna_My_Tatas · 2023-06-13T02:48:26+00:00

Yes.

loganmacoy · 2023-06-13T09:41:49+00:00

When a woman becomes a transman they realize how hard life is (surgeries are becoming better at faking it)

https://youtu.be/MbjZgG-_Zwg

pomegranate2012 · 2023-06-13T09:28:54+00:00

Lot of TERMRAs on this post, smh.

skcuf2 · 2023-06-13T12:13:04+00:00

I'd say no. A trans man might experience the same social experiences as a man, but the actual discrimination they'd face wouldn't be the same. They don't have circumcision forced upon them, for one. I can't confirm as I've never seen it, but I wouldn't imagine a trans man would have the same issues in court that a real man would. Eg. custody battles and divorce theft.

Anyone can join the movement, but trans men and real men don't share the same experiences. Both groups have separate issues.

Dapper_Platform_1222 · 2023-06-13T21:00:48+00:00

Of course. As long as the line is issues that they are experiencing due to being men, and not being trans then they are by definition "men's rights".

Having transitioned allies can only strengthen the cause. It's really kind of a win/win for everyone. The only party that is outright rejecting the trans community is the feminist community and they're kind of a movement of bigots so let's not stoop to their level.

UghNeyko · 2023-06-13T08:07:50+00:00

To some extent yes and I've seen cases of women transitioning to men where they pointed out how much worse their life got when being perceived as a man both in terms of loneliness and how much more difficult dating is (one of them even ended up committing suicide I believe). So to some extent when it comes to being subjected to the same hardships as biological men, yes, but someone transitioning could never get the full experience of being a male since you were born which includes childhood hardships.

HipsterNgariman · 2023-06-13T08:39:21+00:00

They can face the same issues. And help the cause (so are women able to be MRA). If the question is about transmen being welcomed in the men's rights activism movement, I don't see why not.

However I'm not going to pretend they are biological males. Their existence as a whole is still intrinsically different, for better or for worse. With all my respect, swapping genitals and taking testosterone is just tryhard LARPing.

Akuna_My_Tatas · 2023-06-13T07:16:17+00:00

[permanently deleted]

RoryTate · 2023-06-13T13:37:18+00:00

In the end, I don't think there is a strong overlap in the issues that affect the two groups. For example, men's health focuses on getting better funding for prostate cancer (which affects vastly more people than breast cancer, yet strangely receives significantly less funding...only about 10% in comparison I think), testicular cancer, etc, and those are obviously not applicable to the other group. Or even preventing suicide, which is a concern for both groups – the biggest risk factors for men are unemployment, financial issues, legal problems, etc, but for women who are or have transitioned it is instead self-image problems and feelings of isolation/loneliness that increase the risk of self harm. So the focus and solutions offered there are quite different on average. Circumcision and the right to bodily integrity is certainly a priority issue for men, but that isn't shared either.

That said, I think everyone benefits from more rights and better lives for everyone, so even though the overlap is not so large, it doesn't have to be seen as a zero-sum game between the various groups vying for care.

Clockw0rk · 2023-06-13T21:33:02+00:00

Men's issues fall under men's rights. Period.

If you're being treated differently because you're a man, a man, a "man", a man, or a ~~man~~, then you're included in our movement.

If you don't understand this, you're either an irredeemable jackass, or deliberately stupid.

This isn't feminism. We will not make space for "exclusive" rights and privileges. We do not need gatekeepers.

Title	Genuine question here
Author	itsjustaxo
Upvotes	80
Comments	309
Date	June 13, 2023 2:31 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14849t0/genuine_question_here/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/genuine-question-here.1222260 https://theredarchive.com/post/1222260

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