Newborn Circumcision pros/cons

CUNexTuesday · 2014-12-11T13:55:57+00:00

It is not yours to cut.

/thread

rottingchrist · 2014-12-11T14:05:34+00:00

There are no pros to chopping off an infant's body parts.

Zero1343 · 2014-12-11T14:33:50+00:00

With the STD/STI one, my main argument would be. Is a newborn baby going to be having sex? if not then its a pointless argument for a newborn. If your son wants to have it done around the time he would be having sex then that's his decision, if he is old enough to decide to have sex then he is old enough to decide on circumcision.

Hygiene one is kinda moot if you have access to clean running water.

kids will pick on kids for anything, if its not one thing it will be something else, weight, glasses, skill at sport etc. most of the time this teasing between boys isn't serious either.

CedarWolf · 2014-12-11T16:24:42+00:00

Hello. I'm bi/pansexual, and I'm intact. My foreskin is laughably easy to clean. I slide it back in the shower or the bath, and I'm done. It is actually harder to clean behind my ears or to brush my teeth than it is to take care of my foreskin. It's really convenient to have, and I'm really glad my parents gave me the option when I was older. Mind you, my mother waited until I was 5 to ask, and they should have waited longer, but I'm really glad that they gave me the choice and that I made the decision to stay intact.

For the first few years, you don't need to do anything at all. A baby's foreskin is attached to his glans and will not retract. That is entirely normal. It is healthy and is designed to protect the glans until he is older. It will become fully retractable in time, usually between the ages of 5 to 7. My father actually told me to pull mine back in the bath as a child, and in doing so I damaged mine a little, so it's a little tighter than most. It's not phimosis, it's not a problem, it's just an annoyance I could have lived without. I can't blame my Dad, though; he didn't know any better. My first boyfriend had a fully functional foreskin, and I had a lot of fun playing with it because it was so easy to play with him and get him going.

Now, as mentioned, I've had some experience with men, both with foreskins and without. I've also spent some time living in Europe and the US, and I spent a little time in the US Army. I also attended a Catholic school as a child. No one has ever teased me for having foreskin. On the contrary, men and women have actually found me interesting because it's a novelty. They want to know how a foreskin works and what it looks like, etc. I've given a simple "Foreskin 101" class among my closest friends about a dozen times... but we're pretty open about such things.

Speaking of the sexual realm, I can say from personal experience, an orgasm for me can be an earth-shattering event or just a little bit of quick fun, depending on how much effort I put in. I have a lot of leeway that my cut friends simply don't have. I have a low refractory period, so I can go up to four times in a single evening. I've found my intact lovers to be similarly sensitive... they're simply easier to get off, easier to tease, easier to hold them on edge and keep them there... It's a little more fun. Meanwhile, my cut lovers... well, they're fun, but there's something missing. It takes concerted, focused effort for them to finish, and once they're done, they can't be touched for a while afterward. It kind of kills the mood a bit. It interrupts the tempo.

It really does make masturbation and pleasure a breeze. I don't need lube or lotion or anything, my foreskin handles all of that. When I finish, if I don't have something handy, I can simply pinch my foreskin and it'll catch everything until I can deposit it somewhere appropriate. I'm not bound by the nearest sock or box of tissues, for example. It's so ridiculously convenient. I don't even need a sheath or any sort of masturbatory aide, my foreskin slips back and forth along the glans so I get full shaft and tip/head sensation as I play. I'd like to think this has made me a very responsive lover, because it's taught me exactly how to tease another person.

If you want some actual, factual back up, I can suggest /r/Intactivists. They've got the studies and the medical literature that will tell you roughly how many nerve endings are in the foreskin, and how there are specialized cells found in the foreskin that simply aren't found anywhere else... and the way that circumcision allows the glans to become keratinized. Basically, this means that without the foreskin to protect it for all those years throughout childhood and into adulthood, the glans rubs against the child's underwear and becomes desensitized. On /r/Intactivists, you'll also find graphs and charts correlating the sales of ED medications such as Viagra with the nations on Earth who regularly circumcise their children. The US and Israel are far and away the highest markets for erectile dysfunction medication on the planet... and both nations regularly cut their children.

But don't take my word for it. Here's an excellent presentation about it, with an excerpted, shorter version here. Read up on the way circumcision came about in the US as an anti-masturbatory crusade by Harvey Kellogg (the cereal guy). Read up on the way that high-end beauty creams use neo-natal foreskins in their creams as a ready source of stem cells, and how much they pay hospitals to get their supply. Foreskins are big money in beauty supply and as seeding material for growing skin grafts. Look up how an actual circumcision is done, or the variety of methods, and realize that it's often done without anesthetic in a sound-proofed room so that Mom can't hear her baby's anguished cries. They're doing studies now which indicate that a circumcision causes psychological effects into childhood and stretching into adulthood... and that babies who have been cut suffer a fracture in their relationship with their mothers, because they went through this trauma without any sort of explanation.

Oh, and remember how I mentioned earlier that a foreskin is attached to your baby's glans at birth, and will remain that way until he's 4 or 5, sometimes a little older? (Don't retract his foreskin! It's there to protect your child, just leave it alone.) Well, when a circumcision is done, the docs slide a forceps up in there, wiggle it around until it's mostly detached from the glans, forcing it to detach, and then either cut or clamp the foreskin off. After the cut, they lift the foreskin away and sort of peel it away from the glans where it's still attached.

Check out a video of how it's done, it's extremely painful and the child often turns purple or passes out. Then he may be handed back to Mom with "See, no big deal, he slept through the whole thing!"

How anyone can believe an open wound in a diaper is somehow "more sanitary" is beyond me. Babies don't have a whole lot of blood to lose, and children die every year or lose functionality in their penis from botched circumcisions or various complications... sometimes resulting in another, corrective surgery.

There's not enough incentive on the planet for me to do that to my child when the time comes. It's barbarism masquerading as medicine.

Edit: Oh, and I've been sexually active for roughly a decade, now, give or take a year or two... and despite of all the things I've done, I've never caught an STI. I have running water and condoms, and even when I'm out camping or backpacking, I still bring protection. I get tested regularly, and it's never been a problem.

Roddy0608 · 2014-12-11T15:44:08+00:00

Tell your partner that in order for the boy to be mutilated, you both have to agree with it. You don't agree with it, therefore it shouldn't happen.

Ultramegasaurus · 2014-12-11T15:18:06+00:00

Pros: -

Cons:

no pros
his body, his choice
pain, trauma
reduced sensitivity, dependency on lube and lotion for even vanilla sexual activity
pretty much irreversible

Drabbeynormalblues · 2014-12-11T16:59:42+00:00

I've been with both uncircumcised guys and circumcised guys and as a woman I've never heard of any uncircumcised guy saying they got made fun of. If anything the women I've ran into are curious about it because they've never seen one before and are rather pleased by it.

If a simple circumcision was all that was needed to prevent STD's then America and Africa would be one of the safest places to have unprotected sex. Condoms prevent STD's not circumcisions. Teach your children about safe sex practices instead.

If your boyfriend doesn't feel he can teach your son proper hygiene then maybe he shouldn't be a parent. Is it that hard to teach him to pull the skin back and run some water over it?

The foreskin has many functions and benefits for the female as well.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Functions.html

http://www.circumcision.org/femalesex.htm

paladin_ranger · 2014-12-11T16:27:24+00:00

Whose penis is it, your boyfriend's or the baby's?

ExpendableOne · 2014-12-11T17:04:53+00:00

Sounds like your husband was circumcised as a baby, and is projecting his insecurities/misconceptions against his son. "He will be made fun of" is not a good excuse for circumcision. If the norm for women was female circumcision, than an intact girl would also be made fun of. Conformity is not an excuse, nor should circumcision really be the norm(it's not the norm in a lot of other countries, and I believe there's a decline for it in America as well). "a lot of kids had it done and they're fine" could also be used as an argument for female circumcision as well(when it's the norm they grew up with, they don't know any different and would have a very strong natural bias in defending circumcision).

The cleanliness and STD arguments are also both incredibly ridiculous. The only way to keep your dick clean is to clean it and the only way to avoid STD's is to wear rubbers. Cutting a piece of your dick because it creates a desolate environment would be like telling kids they should cut their ears because it's cleaner. The exact same argument could also be used to justify female circumcision. The misconception that a foreskin increases STD transmission is also pretty ridiculous and using some pretty sketchy/misleading data at best.

In any case, there's a lot of resources you can find about why you shouldn't circumcise your son online(plenty of youtube resources on too). It is his foreskin alone to cut. It never grows back. It contains thousands of nerve endings. It serves a function(a few actually, it keeps the glans hydrated and protected, and it helps with the fluidity of motion when masturbating/having sex). Without it, the head will chaff and callus, losing even more sensitivity. Circumcision is a traumatic experience for a baby. It's cruel. It's unnecessary. It was popularized because it was thought to be a deterrent against boys sexuality(basically stop masturbation, which is pretty fucked).

xNOM · 2014-12-11T14:49:30+00:00

His reasoning is he doesn't want our son to be made fun of

Actually I can relate what happened to me (uncut). When I was a kid, the circumcision rate was MUCH higher than it is now. As part of PE we were required to wear uniforms and shower after gym class starting in 3rd grade. They were communal (not private) showers. Unbeknownst to me, in addition to hygeine, part of the idea behind this was a health education thing to get comfortable with one's own body and nakedness, i.e. what is "normal?" Girls had to shower as well.

I was the only uncircumcised kid. My first conversation on the topic with a classmate shortly thereafter was "my dad says that I had the end of my dick cut off as a baby, is that true?" He was a bit horrified, actually.

IMO shielding a kid, especially a boy, from this kind of thing only makes things worse. Dealing with not "fitting in" is one of the trials of manhood, IMO.

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2014-12-11T15:00:24+00:00

The best approach isn't to try and counter his feelings with facts, but with more feelings.

Who will be making fun of your son's uncircumcised penis before he is old enough to make the choice about it himself? You and your husband changing his dipairs. Possibly Your parents helping with that task. If your boyfriend is saying that HE will make fun of your son for this, you should dump him.

It is "more hygenic". Well so is not using diapers. Diapers hold the poop and pee against his body while waiting to get changed. Letting him poop and pee all over everything would be "more hygenic" for the baby, but require excessively more work cleaning up after him.

It can minimize the risk of contracting some STD's. Well where is your baby boy going to be having sex so that STD's are actually a concern? Once he is old enough to be having sex, he is old enough to make a reasonably informed decision about his own body and at that point can choose circumcision for himself.

While these are not the most intellectually sound arguments, they are much more likely to speak to your boyfriend than dry facts.

RayMan7155 · 2014-12-12T00:25:03+00:00

I am an early 40's married man who was cut (Type 4 as IFD noted earlier). No arousal issues, ne ED. However lifelong I have had sensitivity issues and frankly it sucks. There is no such thing as a 'quickie' to me. No 5 minute BJ's, no lunchtime hookups, at least none where I get to completion. Let's just say her orgasm ratio to mine is about 15 to 1 LOL. 1-2 hour sessions before I finish are quite common. We are also both in good health and IMO attractive for our ages.

My two boys are not cut (19 and 13). Neither have EVER been made fun of. Also, I don't stand around comparing my junk to theirs. Who the hell does that? Any medical 'benefits' with regard to UTI are almost identical to the rate of serious complications from the procedure.

With some exceedingly rare medically necessary exceptions, I see NO valid reason for a parent to elect to mutilate their child.

Let them choose when they reach adulthood.

aesopstortoise · 2014-12-11T16:24:07+00:00

I seem to be posting this a lot lately, hope you find it useful:

Two excellent blog articles:

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/02/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/05/when-bad-science-kills-or-how-to-spread-aids/

Blog post, lots of detail and sources:

http://www.blogher.com/attempting-unbiased-post-about-circumcision?page=full

Circumcision for food vouchers:

http://www.trust.org/item/20140721144650-quat2/#comment-1500374725

Foreskin cells for sale:

http://ccr.coriell.org/Sections/Search/Search.aspx?PgId=165&q=foreskin%20fibroblast

Uncircumcised, then circumcised, then reconstructed - Dr. Paul Tinari, Engineer, Vancouver:

http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/07/25/Circumcision/

Washington Times - Article points out limitations of prospective benefits of medical circumcision:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/29/adult-circumcision-drive-fight-aids-faces-resistan/?page=all

The official side of the argument, but even here the benefits can be questioned:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/prevention/research/malecircumcision/

Botched traditional circumcisions lead to infection and death - this is a regular tragedy:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/south-africa-old-custom-becomes-health-crisis

http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/editorials/2013/07/09/editorial-circumcision--a-winter-horror-in-rural-south-africa

http://allafrica.com/stories/201406251112.html

rapiertwit · 2014-12-11T17:54:04+00:00

This is a plea to emotion, but you might try having him watch a few videos of babies having the operation. You can see quite clearly they're suffering. Then ask, why would we make one of our child's first experiences in life one of extreme pain? It fucks with my head that I live in a culture where people who wouldn't dream of wrapping their baby in anything but the softest blankets washed only in carefully selected additive-free detergents, think nothing of strapping that same baby to a miniature torture table and slicing part of their genitals off.

walkonthebeach · 2014-12-11T18:00:18+00:00

Ask your boyfriend if he would be OK with you having your little baby girl "circumcised"? Because often, this is a lot less damage then male circumcision:

Q: Which one of the following two photographs would you deem "genital mutilation" and "child sex abuse"? Note that you have to work out which picture is which.

SAFE FOR WORK Picture A

NSFW: NOT SAFE FOR WORK Picture B

One picture shows the amount of flesh removed from a 3 month old girl undergoing "sunat" in Malaysia. Here, a scalpel is used by a nurse or doctor in a modern hospital to shave off a tiny bit of flesh from the mound on the prepuce of the clitoris. ie: just a tiny, tiny part is shaved off from the top of the female "foreskin" of the clitoris. There is no bleeding.

The picture was taken from a blog written by a mother in Malaysia, who documented the "sunat" of her daughter, who was just a few months old, in her blog. She has since removed the post, as there was an outpour of international outrage in her comments section.

Millions of girls in Malaysia undergo this "procedure" each year. And it's correctly labeled "genital mutilation" by WHO, UN, UNICEF and every medical association of every country in the world. 80% of this FGM is performed by "competent" medical personnel in clinics or hospitals.

Of course, there are far worse forms of FGM than this — but the point is, that even this level of removal of flesh is considered FGM and a serious crime in most countries of the world. It's also recognised as torture and child sex-abuse by WHO and the UN

The other picture shows the male newborn's foreskin a nurse salvaged from a garbage can after an infant "circumcision". On the left, the foreskin is shriveled up. On the right, the same foreskin is unfolded, with the inner mucosal surface exposed.

The foreskin is not "just a little bit of skin." The foreskin is a complex, double-layered fold of flesh, laden in thousands of nerves and blood vessels. Keep in mind that as a child grows into a man, his foreskin grows too; it isn't so little by the time the child is an adult. And adult foreskin can be from 12 to 15 square inches in size.

The foreskin is not a birth defect.

Neither is it a congenital deformity or genetic anomaly akin to a 6th finger or a cleft.

Neither is it a medical condition like a ruptured appendix or diseased gall bladder.

Neither is it a dead part of the body, like the umbilical cord, hair, or fingernails.

The foreskin is not "extra skin." The foreskin is normal, natural, healthy, functioning tissue, with which all boys are born; it is as intrinsic to male genitalia as labia are to female genitalia.

Unless there is a medical or clinical indication, the circumcision of a healthy, non-consenting individual is a deliberate wound; it is the destruction of normal, healthy tissue, the permanent disfigurement of normal, healthy organs, and by very definition, infant genital mutilation, and a violation of the most basic of human rights.

Genital mutilation, whether it be wrapped in culture, religion or “research” is still genital mutilation, and it needs to stop NOW.

Genital Autonomy for all - Intersex, Male & Female

Vaphell · 2014-12-11T16:54:05+00:00

His reasoning is he doesn't want our son to be made fun of

according to recent stats, under 60% of boys or so are circumcised today in the US and the trend is heading down, approx 5% per decade. If every other boy is uncut, how is that going to be unusual and a reason to be made fun of in a locker room? And it's not like the problem cannot be solved with a bit of trashtalking ( eg. guys, why are you so interested in my dick, you want to suck it or what?). Also the kid's future sexual partners are not going to be grandmas but his peers raised in a different reality than you, the parents.

its more hygenic

hygiene is bullshit. Almost nobody is cut in Europe and we don't have a plague of dick diseases here. Dicks au naturel don't cause troubles and are very low maintenance. Brushing teeth which anybody with a pulse can perform requires a lot more effort comparatively. Never heard of anybody getting penile cancer or whatever and chicks have it 100x worse with UTIs, it's a non-issue really.

and it can prevent/minimize the risk of contracting some STDs

STDs again is bullshit. One - kids don't stick their private parts in other human beings, 2. if circumcision was a silver bullet, the cut US wouldn't be as affected by STDs, HIV included, as it is. Rubber > all. Depending on circumcision is like playing russian roulette with a slightly better odds. It's still a russian roulette and sooner or later you are going to blow your head off.

TheRealMouseRat · 2014-12-11T17:37:59+00:00

Pros:

You get to mutilate your son, and if you are an evil person that may bring you some pleasure.

Oprah can make more of her foreskin cream.

Cons:

Your son gets mutilated.

Reduced sexual pleasure.

Chance of complications: infections, or worse.

Pain for the baby.

Not having a foreskin, which has a lot of benefits from protecting the head of the penis -> less penis discomfort, easier masturbating, natural lubrication holding when aroused (less leaky penis). Circumcision removes all the benefits.

Your son may feel mutilated, betrayed by you, different, broken, which can reduce his self esteem.

Those are the only pros and cons I can think of right now. People who lack the foreskin usually don't know the benefits of having one, I have one and it's great! Keep your son intact is my recommendation.

chocoboat · 2014-12-11T18:26:49+00:00

Please don't do it. Stand up to your boyfriend on this issue. If your son ends up needing a circumcision when he's older (or wants one for some reason), he can choose it for himself when he's old enough to make the decision for himself.

1) It is immoral to perform cosmetic and medically unnecessary procedures on anyone without their consent, regardless of whether there are benefits or not.

2) The supposed benefits are virtually nonexistent, they were invented by pro-circumcision people once "it's just tradition" stopped being a good enough excuse.

3) Yes, in the vast majority of cases the baby suffers no serious damage... but in rare cases, babies are mutilated to the point where the penis has to be amputated, or they can die from blood loss or from the anesthetic. Taking that kind of risk (even a small one) with your newborn son just for cosmetic reasons is a terrible idea.

4) "It's more hygenic" applies in third world countries where being able to wash the penis is a rare event. If you live in a place that has running water, washing should not be a problem.

Educate your boyfriend on these issues and find a video of a circumcision being performed on a newborn and get your boyfriend to watch it. I have a feeling he might have a change of heart.

DavidByron2 · 2014-12-11T16:42:19+00:00

His reasoning is he doesn't want our son to be made fun of

Probably the only sound reason (just as good a reason to support FGM of course - and nobody takes it seriously as an argument for FGM) that I've ever seen. However these days it's just not true because about half of boys are circumcised and half aren't in the USA (the only civilized country that still performs this barbaric quasi-religious anti-masturbation surgery) so who gets laughed at? Boys with it or boys without it? I'm sure that wasn't true when you and your bf were kids but things have changed.

it can prevent/minimize the risk of contracting some STDs

So claims the CDC which is a very anti-male institution, but it's important to know they don't claim this potentially lethal surgery will help the boy; they claim (falsely IMO) that it might help women he has sex with, if he gets AIDS or whatever, it helps stop him spreading it to women they claim. But no other civilized countries believe this.

His body, not his choice. Not even his benefit.

Megistias · 2014-12-11T18:24:04+00:00

I'm cut, my three sons are not. It's an ancient religious practice that got restarted in the US during the mid-late 1800's by prudes with hangups in the hopes of diminishing penile sensitivity and reducing masturbation. It doesn't. I'd no more have it done to my boys than crop or notch their ears, or prophylactically have their tonsils or appendix removed.

His reasoning is he doesn't want our son to be made fun of

I had the opposite problem from being circumcised. While stationed in Germany, I became friends with a family of German nudists. I ended up going to their favorite lake location several times. I'm a tall blond American of German heritage and blended right in. Or so I thought. The second trip there I noticed that I was getting a bit of attention from the tween-aged girls. It was a bit disconcerting. Then I realized why. One of these penises was not like the others. Mine. My cover was blown. No one made fun of me, but I did get some unexpected attention.

I_DOXX_CATS · 2014-12-11T19:28:51+00:00

I'm cut, my son is not. Just leave it and allow your son to make the choice. Babies sometimes die from it.

clockworkgirl21 · 2014-12-12T01:24:14+00:00

The bottom line is this: If he regrets being circumcised, there is no way to fix that. Yes, you can restore, but that can take years, and it isn't a real foreskin. It can make the glans a little less dry and calloused, but all those nerves and anatomical structures are gone forever. If he wants to be circumcised at a later date, that's a possibility. One decision you can make impacts his life forever, the other does not.

But beyond that, here are some facts.

Infant circumcision is often performed with no anesthesia. And no kind of anesthesia (if it's given at all) eliminates the pain. It only dulls it. Adults getting circumcised can be given general anesthesia. That's dangerous to give a baby.

Circumcision also has a negative affect on sexuality.

It's true that American medical associations tend to promote infant circumcision and say that it's beneficial, but they're outnumbered by foreign medical associations that say it's risky, harmful, and abusive. Someone else on Reddit created a little list of all the medical associations that have a negative view of infant circumcision, some of their quotes, and mentions which of them outright call for a ban.

I'm also throwing in the protestation written up by several foreign doctors when the AAP said infant circumcision was beneficial in 2012. It contains rebuttals for things like circumcision curbing STDs, infections, cancer, etc.

Just show him all of that. If he still won't come around, here's what you say: "We aren't discussing it any further. It's his penis, not mine or yours. End of story."

belil569 · 2014-12-11T17:24:08+00:00

I am not cut. I have never been made fun of due to it with any woman I have been with including my wife.

Hygiene? Be a damn parent and wash and show them how to clean themselves. Thats like saying you want to cut off fingers so you dont scratch yourself with your nails.

STD: Wear a freakin condom. If you are betting on being cut to save your child from an STD then you really dont understand things well enough.

Forcing that on a child is genital mutilation and wrong on so many levels. With all due respect if he would listen to facts you would not be here.

kmaster2520 · 2014-12-11T19:12:41+00:00

There is no justification for this cruelty, do not circumcize.

xxxbeardl · 2014-12-11T20:25:05+00:00

its his penis, let him decide. its not your penis or your bfs.

zpatriarchy · 2014-12-11T17:37:28+00:00

let him know that his son will not have a problem getting laid when he gets older. girls may say they prefer the look of a mutiliated penis but remind him that girls aren't as visual as men & they barely look at it anyway.

source: my intact penis

deadalnix · 2014-12-11T21:33:10+00:00

Pro:

dubious research show that it reduce the risk of hiv transmission (the studies only focus on hiv and compare men circumcised + given information about prevention to the general population, so there is no proof that circumcision is actually the cause of reduced transmission). It is imperative to get it done fast as newborn babies tend to have a lot of unprotected sex.
social conformity will make you feel good. And who wouldn't mutilate his child to feel good ?
we all know that men are too dumb to wash themselves, so it is gonna be cleaner.

Cons:

Obviously, you have to mutilate your son. But that's all for the greater good, so don't let your bad conscience stop you.
There are good chance of complications. Going from reduced pleasure for your son (men who want to have pleasure in sex are pig anyway, so it doesn't matter) to death. I don't have the exact number, but it is in the hundreds per year in the usa. Weak men dying is a good thing for the human race as a whole so it is not that bad.
You also may end up being seen by your son as the twisted psycho that cut his dick. Don't worry he cannot sue you.

Considering the pro and cons, it is fairly clear you should do it, unless you are a descent human being, or simply have some empathy for your son.

Your husban here is not thinking about your son, he is thinking about himself. Admitting that it is absolutely inconcievable to do this to your son means that his parents did something horrible and barbaric to him (which they did). He is protecting his delusion, and is willing to sacrifice your son in the process. He needs therapy, as this is very unhealthy.

iongantas · 2014-12-12T04:26:34+00:00

His body, his choice. Not yours, not your boyfriend's The reasons mentioned by your boyfriend are all bs. Would you circumcise your daughter? I assume no, so why would it be ok to mutilate your baby boy's penis?

wufoo2 · 2014-12-12T13:28:27+00:00

Your BF is unconsciously projecting his own insecurities over not knowing what he missed by not having his foreskin. But confronting that directly won't work.

Here's what a friend of mine in your situation did, and it worked:

Print this article and this one, hand them to him, and say you want to talk about them when he's done reading.

(It's important to use printed copies for this. Links can get ignored.)

If he's not convinced by the time you have your discussion, boot up the computer and watch a YouTube video of an actual circumcision, with the sound up.

smokeysmoker · 2014-12-11T14:14:29+00:00

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/MC-factsheet-508.pdf

tHrOWAwAay1423 · 2014-12-11T16:36:20+00:00

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cmt1uPzlVaM

I_fight_demons · 2014-12-11T20:51:39+00:00

Types

There are 5 classifications of circumcision, based on the degree of skin removal, ancient Jewish practice was of Type 1, modern medical, Jewish, Muslim and African circumcision practice generally is Type 3 or 4. (this is from /r/Intactivists wiki):

Type 1: The most minor circumcision is the excision of the part extending beyond the glans only (acroposthion). This corresponds to the original Judaic operation of brit milah before the institution of brit periah in the Hellenic period. After this very minor form of cutting, there may be no visible indication of circumcision. The scar may be lost among the ridges of the intact ridged band. Michelangelo's David is an example of this form of circumcision that's so minor it might be called circumscription today (Hall, 1992; Peron, 2000; Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion). ("doesn't even look circumcised")

Type 2: Minor/partial circumcision: Excision of foreskin to a point partway down the glans. ("very loose circumcision")

Type 3: Excision of the foreskin to the glans corona leaving the glans fully exposed but retaining more of the frenular delta and some of the rolling skin. For brit periah, cutting has to be as destructive as this or more destructive. ("looser circumcision")

Type 4: Excision of the foreskin to the glans corona, also excision of the frenulum including most or all of the frenular delta; very little of the rolling skin mechanism remains. ("low tight circumcision")

Type 5: Maximum destruction: Excision of all foreskin beginning at some point behind the glans. The skin is tight and cannot move at all increasing sexual friction much more than lesser varieties of foreskin destruction. ("high, very tight circumcision")

About 50-60% of men in the US are circumcised today, a generation or two ago this was 80-90%. The idea that the boy will 'look different' is now confused- he's going to look different than about 1/2 of his peers regardless of which way you go. The idea that a boy must look like his father is awful- you do not perform cosmetic surgery on infant genitals so they 'look right.' Many boys rarely or never see their father's penis and when they do are much more likely to notice that there is hair and that the testicles are bigger. Would your boyfriend shave his pubic hair to make sure he 'looks like his son'? If not, then the look alike argument is silly.

Health Effects

Modern medicine focuses on three major health benefits, STI reduction (including HIV), UTI reduction and cancer prevention. These are weighed against significant risks associated with the procedure- including castration and death. Death rates are almost certainly under-reported (death by infection or bleeding would be listed as such, not as death by infection from a circumcision or death by circumcision on a hemophiliac newborn).

STIs: Keep in mind that in all cases we are talking about female to male transmission, not male to female or male to male. As you may know, F->M transmission of most STIs is far more rare than M->F and especially M->M transmission. So we are already talking about curing a very limited percentage of the total problem associated with STIs.

There is some evidence of STI reduction, but this is a considerable controversy. Many studies barely meet requirements for statistical validity, or have big problems with confounding variables that were not controlled for and self-selected populations studied. It is also the case that you need to be at risk for STIs and have poor hygiene in many cases for the reduction to be attained. So female to male transmission is reduced very slightly if there is risky sex (multiple partners, poor condom use) and poor penile hygiene. The proper way to protect against STIs is abstinence or safe sex practices. Circumcision might reduce some transmission rates by minor amounts, but condom use reduces many by 99%. Which is the better intervention to recommend? Cost effective education and contraception, or painful genital surgery on a defenseless newborn?

HIV studies have almost all found no difference in cut and uncut men. There are a set of famous studies by the WHO that are very controversial. These found reductions but I have them and they were absolutely and unquestionably biased. I have read many, many academic papers and they had some of the worst statistical controls and methods I have ever seen- they wanted to show a reduction as the result and they got it. The authors also conveniently left out the fact that men that volunteer to be cut are told that they are less likely to spread HIV, and thus they have more risky sex, which makes them more likely to infect future partners.

UTIs: UTIs are virtually eliminated in boys by modern circumcision, this is true. But UTIs occur in only a few percent of boys (3-4%) that are uncircumcised. UTIs are easily prevented with good hygiene or easily treated with antibiotics. If we aren't surgically genitally altering girls to prevent UTIs then why are we treating boys for a rare problem with a scalpel when we could do so with soap and water or antibiotics, if needed? It is also worth mentioning that many studies about UTIs in uncircumcised boys reflect nothing more than the terrible education we get about uncircumcised penile care. Many parents are told to not retract the foreskin, expose the glans and clean under it. This is awful advice since in young boys the foreskin is attached to the glans with material similar to the stuff that keeps your fingernails on your fingers. Pulling the foreskin back painfully tears this bonding material and creates a wound and space for infection to be trapped- this is then blamed on the foreskin, when it ought to be blamed on uninformed child care.

Cancer: Some studies show a very slight reduction in penile cancer, some do not. It should be noted however that penile cancer is both incredibly rare and generally happens much later in life. Like prostate cancer it is a slow spreading cancer that often develops in a man's 60s or later. Men generally die with it not from it. There is no other surgery we perform with the hope of possibly preventing a rare problem many decades down the road. Also, I have never read a study which mentioned the obvious point- amputating any part of the body will prevent it from ever getting cancer. Cutting off 50% of the skin of the penis does indeed prevent cancer from ever forming in that skin- because you have destroyed it preemptively. We do not slice off ears, noses, breasts, fingers or tonsils at birth to prevent them from becoming cancerous. Why do we do it to boy's penises? There is also good evidence that penile cancer is mediated by HPV, a sexually transmitted disease, see above about that.

The US is the only modern western nation where some medical organizations are friendly to circumcision. Europe, the UK, Australia, Canada, Japan and South Korea all universally state that the risks outweigh any potential benefits. The US joins central Africa, Israel and the Muslim world as the only places where circumcision is common-place. Clearly this is an issue of culture and tradition, not medical need.

mean0dean0 · 2014-12-12T16:19:05+00:00

If you wouldn't have your daughter cut on in any way, why would you have your son cut on in any way? Social pressure? Tell your boyfriend that he needs to put you in a niqab and force you to stay home, because some societies consider that the appropriate way to treat women. And then when he's grown up, tell him "our son's body; our son's choice."

Faryshta · 2014-12-11T15:16:27+00:00

pros: your new born cock will look sexier to some people

cons: his rights and health

TriangleBasketball · 2014-12-11T18:21:54+00:00

Guy here, being honest, what is the big deal about circumcision? I don't see it as a big deal, but it seems like a hot issue around here.

THROWAWAY23422134 · 2014-12-11T14:49:03+00:00

Using a throwaway because I don't like talking about my dick on the internet.

Alright.... So I'm snipped, was as an infant. I don't care that I was. At the same time, I it feels wrong to me to do it. And at the same I did it to my own son. So here we are, guess I'm a bad person.

In my case it was the opposite: my wife wanted to do it, I didn't. I left the room while they did it as a small silent futile protest, but as you can obviously tell, I didn't protest enough to stop it which I know I could have. Bottom line is it's done and I did nothing to stop it from happening and I'm OK with that.

To say that "I regret it" would be an overstatement. I don't regret getting my son circumcised, even though I object to it on purely moral grounds. I'm not sure how to reconcile that, but it's the truth.

Anyway, back to myself (cuz that's all that matters ;), to say that "I don't notice" is the simplest truth. Many will tell you that sex feels better when you have a foreskin. I do not doubt that, but I have nothing to compare it to. I enjoy sex plenty. Would I enjoy it more if I had my foreskin? Maybe... Probably? Don't know. But I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

I will admit that I think that circumcised penises look better. Is that a good reason to get something like that done? No. But there's no reason to get your ears pierced either. That last sentence will no doubt be the bait that people take to disagree with me. If they do, they're missing the point.

Parents make lots of decisions on behalf of their kids that are irreversible. This is one of them. There will be others in your life. This one is politically and emotionally charged.

So if you want a TL;DR, I'm not sure that I can offer one because the truth is that I don't have an answer. Do I think it's inherently wrong to do it? Yeah, probably. Do I regret having it done to me or doing it to my son? No. I might have even regretted it the other way around to be honest. I don't know.

aslak123 · 2014-12-11T19:11:18+00:00

it makes it impossible to get cancer on your foreskin. thats the only benefit to it really.

roadrunnersk · 2014-12-11T17:25:35+00:00

I think your responses in this particular forum will be polarized, and I'll be downvoted for saying this -- but gather input from responses here and other subreddits as well.

I'm a guy saying this, FYI.

Keche06 · 2014-12-11T22:08:21+00:00

It does minimize the risk of getting std's.

soalone34 · 2014-12-11T20:03:10+00:00

This is a biased place in this regard honestly. Here basically everyone who gets up voted is going to say that it should stay intact. The CDC released this http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pdf/prevention_research_malecircumcision.pdf

But some news sources are giving them criticism for it

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/9/cdc-circumsion-proposal-getting-thumbs-down/

Title	Newborn Circumcision pros/cons
Author	chesterfeildsofa
Upvotes	25
Comments	102
Date	December 11, 2014 1:25 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2oyxya/newborn-circumcision-proscons/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/newborn-circumcision-proscons.1623817 https://theredarchive.com/post/1623817

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