Quick debate:

randomusername1934 · 2023-12-13T11:40:05+00:00

Thought Experiment: A man on the train is getting held down and raped by another (presumably larger, and aggressive) man. Do the women in the train carriage while this is happening have a responsibility/obligation to step up and get their jaws broken in their attempts to save him? If not then, assuming that men and women are equal, there can be no reason or expectation for a man to step in to help a woman in the same situation.

Vaporwatac · 2023-12-13T11:08:18+00:00

You could argue whether they had an ethical duty to at least call the police (who will only come after the crime is already done), or alert other passengers, but I don't think that you can expect them to put themselves in harm's way. You cannot be expected to go into a fight that you are not likely to win.

Furthermore, putting the responsibility solely on male bystanders is wrong, both male and female bystanders are equally responsible in how they react to the crime.

WhereProgressIsMade · 2023-12-13T14:58:18+00:00

In the USA, there was a stretch where bystanders who tried to help someone injured in a car accident or having a medical emergency before paramedics arrived were being sued successfully for things like not doing CPR quite right, etc.

So people stopped helping. Which should surprise no one. So, there was a big push to pass "good Samaritan" laws to shield people trying to do their best to stop someone from bleeding out even if they didn't do it to the level of a trained paramedic. So now people are helping again.

We're kind of heading back though with guys getting charged with sexual harassment for doing CPR on a woman and ending up on a sexual offender's list.

With the way things are in the US right now, the only thing you can do in your situation is call the cops and not get involved. I think it would be a better society if we actually supported people doing their best to prevent things like a rape happening but that's not the society we currently live in.

LOPI-14 · 2023-12-13T12:04:00+00:00

Outside of law enforcement, who gave on oath to protect and serve, nobody is obligated to help anyone else. You can consider it a personal or social responsibility even, but the decision must rest only on the individual and not some sily sexist law that may or may not become real due to cases like this, that demands a man to forcefully endanger himself.

WeEatBabies · 2023-12-13T12:32:56+00:00

Bystander should call the cops/security.

Do not get yourself in arms way you can get seriously hurt, leave it the professionals.

LowAd3406 · 2023-12-13T19:24:46+00:00

Considering 2 men died trying to intervene on behalf of a woman being harassed in my neighborhood, no way in hell am I getting physically involved in any altercation. I can call 911 and that's about it.

shit-zen-giggles · 2023-12-13T11:45:42+00:00

Let’s define helping a little more precisely:

Should you call the authorities? Always and before everything else

Should you intervene physically? Depends on a multitude of factors: Single perpetrator vs group, atmend vs unarmed, Physiological differences (height, age, general fitness,…)

This holds true for all types of interventions, not just in the case of rape

EfficientSimplicity · 2023-12-13T12:37:03+00:00

A lot of Captain Save-A-Hoes have been getting screwed. Recently a man fired a few warning shots to scare away a man robbing a woman, and he was thrown under the bus by the woman and the legal system. Why stick your neck out for an ungrateful woman?

solar-garlic1776 · 2023-12-13T19:29:43+00:00

There was a time when I would have said yes. When good men stand by and do nothing society, as we are seeing takes a huge shit

Now a days fuck no. If I don't know you, married to you, in a real relationship with you, not family, or one of my boys Im not helping anyone

Society hates good men and shits on us so fuck it let it all burn

TenuousOgre · 2023-12-13T17:11:00+00:00

We may argue that there's some form of social agreement that men protect in general. But legally, we have far too many cases where that behavior is punished. Socially the same thing in recent decades. Given that the situation can be one where the victim put themselves into that position I know of no argument justifying a stranger to sacrifice their life or help for such a thoughtless act.

Which leads me to the conclusion that bystanders have no responsibility to prevent a physical confrontation. Maybe to call the police.

Main-Tiger8593 · 2023-12-13T12:13:16+00:00

if you put yourself in danger "hurting the attacker also counts sadly" no...

the jordan neely case comes to mind...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jordan_Neely

NorthwestDM · 2023-12-13T13:53:08+00:00

It's London so the response to an intervention depends entirely on the race of the perpetrator. For the most part intervening by force will see you prosecuted by the police potentially to a greater extent than the rapist and potentially attacked on the street by activist groups, because your name face and most of your address will be public knowledge within 24 hours.

jaypb182 · 2023-12-13T11:23:47+00:00

“Should” it be the responsibility of innocent male bystanders to step in and prevent this from happening?

Nope. Not my responsibility. Women won't move a finger to help men in any other area of life, so why should we?

Input_output_error · 2023-12-13T12:40:17+00:00

Here's the thing, if the police isn't held responsible for not acting in a situation because of fear for their own health and safety, then how can we hold random people responsible for doing the same thing?

hwjk1997 · 2023-12-13T20:17:08+00:00

No. Call the cops if you see a crime being committed and stay back. If he's that bold, who knows what he would do to you?

Learn2BGood · 2023-12-13T14:24:49+00:00

Nope. We're all adults, protect the children.

cruisinforasnoozinn · 2023-12-13T16:28:37+00:00

Why males specifically? It's a human responsibility to help someone who's being raped in front of you

eldred2 · 2023-12-13T21:51:49+00:00

I thought they told us they need us the way a fish needs a bicycle.

Extreme_Spread9636 · 2023-12-14T00:14:23+00:00

I think that we're forgetting one important part of the feministic rhetoric, which is that women don't need a man. Why is this even a discussion?
Second, we seem to only ask questions like this that affect the female population as a human/societal responsibility, but the moment men are affected, we're not ready to talk. No, then we start talking about what men should do to prevent men from being affected.

Rock_Granite · 2023-12-14T01:48:53+00:00

Should a woman who's friend is cheating her husband have the responsibility to step in and prevent it or tell the husband?

IndependenceNo2060 · 2023-12-13T11:14:57+00:00

It's not just a matter of holding bystanders accountable, but also of recognizing our shared humanity and the need to protect one another. We must create a culture where stepping in to help is the norm, not the exception.

Kinexity · 2023-12-13T15:30:44+00:00

Your responsibility is calling the police. I'd say helping should be a thing irrespective of sexes of either victim, perpetrator or bystander - assuming you aren't putting yourself in danger.

PrecisionHat · 2023-12-13T16:00:56+00:00

Why are we making a gender distinction, though? Should women not jump in if they see a man being assaulted?

I can understand the argument about relative size and strength, but this lets a lot of men off the hook too.

ElisaSKy · 2023-12-13T18:58:29+00:00

Hot take:

My moral take on this:

Proposition 1) People should look out for each other.

Proposition 2) punishing people for not looking out for each other is too easily exploitable and is exactly what enables violence by proxy.

Proposition 3) As a general trend (there are exceptions, which are, by definition, uncommon), most women don't look out for men. In fact, many will abuse in one form or the other any man simply stating he's been given an unfair deal, let alone suggesting any specific alteration to that deal.

Proposition 4) You are under no obligation to rescue people whom are hostile to you. While Franz Stiegler escorting Charles "Charlie" Brown to safety, out of the killzone, giving him a short salute and then departing is an admirable display of human compassion, I wouldn't consider Franz to have been in any way obligated to Charles.

Conclusion: in an ideal world, we would look out for each other. We don't live in an ideal world, and just as a Ukrainian/Russian soldier would be under no obligation to rescue his Russian/Ukrainian counterpart from a third party, and in fight would be very justified to Maxim 54 ("the best way to win a one-on-one fight is to be the third to arrive") whomever came out on top, you have no moral obligation to rescue someone whom, statistically speaking, has made their hostility against you very clear.

My pragmatic take on this:

Question 1) very well, what should the man do to stop it? Engage in CQC against someone more vicious and probably more experienced than he is, and therefore most likely lose? Pull a gun/knife/taser/pepper spray can he may not have the legal right to own, let alone carry, and use it to put an end to the fight?

Question 2) Assuming he did do that, whether because he was legally carrying, or he was illegally packing some heat. Will you punish him for doing the right thing? yes? Then why would he do it?

Sir_Spectacular · 2023-12-13T21:32:15+00:00

You could argue a person, in general, has a moral obligation to do something when they see something awful happening to someone unable to defend themselves, at they're in a position to help. Whether that's a sex assault happening in public, or just some kids bullying another kid. Ordinary people doing ordinary things in exceptional circumstances are how heroes are made...

The thing is, you shouldn't have any legal obligation to be a hero.

Interfering with a crime in progress can be quite dangerous, just ask literally any police officer. You don't know know how the aggressor would react to being interrupted, you don't know if he'll run away, or turn on you instead. You don't know if he having a psychotic episode, or if he has a weapon on him. And as a civilian, even if you're a decently big guy, you probably don't have the training or equipment that a proper police officer does.

It's right to praise people who, despite the risks, act selflessly to help others in bad situations. But it's wrong to condemn a normal person who isn't willing to accept that risk. Personally, I'm not a big guy, I don't have martial arts skills, and I don't carry a weapon, so if I saw a sketchy situation, I would just call the police and discreetly follow them until someone in a uniform showed up. I'd try to intervene if it looked like someone was going to die if I didn't, but other than that, I'd leave it to the professionals.

imbetterthanyou30 · 2023-12-13T23:17:14+00:00

stupuff · 2023-12-14T01:28:41+00:00

what about the women near by? are they not as strong and capable as men?

alleycatz2 · 2023-12-13T14:48:36+00:00

Let's look at this in reality, if said man is trying to rape said women he's going to have his pants down it's going to be easy to beat his ass if more than one person gets up maybe one person will get hurt but you will overpower him. Instead of being a bitch stand up and do something cuz I'd turn my attention to you after I cave the guys skull in. And trust me if your bitch enough to not go at that guy your not going to fight my psychotic violent ass that's already pumped and ready to go

supacrusha · 2023-12-13T15:45:21+00:00

I personally believe it is the duty of every good human to step in if someone is being violently assailed. Of course, this should only be done in so far as it makes sense and is relatively safe for the bystander to do, for example, man with gun is commiting the crime, or man much larger than you is commiting the crime and you are alone, maybe don't step in, instead flee to a safe distance and call the police.

But if anything can be done to prevent these crimes against humanity, then it should be done.

Tyrion_lannistar · 2023-12-13T13:58:16+00:00

Any crime you see , if you can prevent it or help in any way without being harmed yourself, you should do it. That's my opinion. Regardless of whoever is involved, man or woman.

PrecisionGuessWerk · 2023-12-13T17:56:24+00:00

Regardless of the law, I absolutely think it should - and I would if I were there.

If anything, for the selfish reason that I ain't allowing that shit to fly infront of me, in my own home.

I don't know if you can legally be held accountable though. My argument is a moral one, not a legal one - the legal one can get complicated.

Agreeable-Progress48 · 2023-12-13T11:06:40+00:00

I think so. "All that is necessary for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing."

dolltron69 · 2023-12-13T15:44:04+00:00

Not an obligation but after contacting police look around for fire extinguisher, grab it and ensure you have backing distance to retreat, fire off extinguisher in his face.

This could result in him coming towards you. In which case use extinguisher as a combat weapon to smash him into pulp.

ETF-The-Token · 2023-12-13T11:38:55+00:00

I help those I can because it makes me feel good about myself

OldTrapper87 · 2023-12-13T13:03:12+00:00

It should be the responsibility of anyone witnessing a rape to stop it. My 5 foot wife would attack a rapists and so would my teenage daughter.

Striking_Extreme_250 · 2023-12-13T14:45:31+00:00

Not SPECIFCALLY Male but in general if people see this happening and don't even TRY to stop it than they are partly to blame.

Huntress_Nyx · 2023-12-13T12:03:19+00:00

Imo if anyone sees that someone that's sexualy assaulting or harassing or raping someone else, they should at help.

Regardless of the bystanders', the victim's and the aggressor's sex.

People should help other people.

Now, it's their responsibility or are they obligated to? No.

But it'll make the world a better place imo.

Other-Medium5577 · 2023-12-13T14:00:17+00:00

There is no fucking way I'm sitting back watching a man rape anybody. If you fucks here don't have the decency to intervene no matter how big the guy is compared to you, then I'd say that male-ness is dead and society is dead and the dark ages are upon us. Good fucking grief.

OldTrapper87 · 2023-12-13T19:33:35+00:00

The men of men's rights on Reddit are little bitches who would let a girl be rapped because it's not their problem. Fucking pathetic human beings. My teenage daughter has more balls then most of you.

If your guys grate grandfather knew what a little bitch you people were he would rise out of his grave and bitch slap you

Extension-Moose-4662 · 2023-12-13T14:04:49+00:00

Was this a relevant fact in the case?

JJnanajuana · 2023-12-13T21:49:07+00:00

If it is safe for them to do so.

Everyone has the responsibility to help, to the best of their ability, without risking their own safety.

That might mean physicaly intervening, or it might mean running away and calling the cops from somewhere safe, it's going to be very situation dependant.

And there's lots of leeway for "I thought I'd get hurt."

Will also say, in uk, or Australia, you can assume they don't have a gun, might still have a knife, or a hard punch, so that's still dangerous in terms of getting close.

griii2 · 2023-12-13T22:00:43+00:00

“Should” it be the responsibility

That is simply not a good question. Rather ask: what is a decent thing to do? In what kind of world would you like to live? What circumstances...

Fantredath · 2023-12-14T07:16:16+00:00

Absolutely Not. It might be the Morally upstanding thing to do, but anyone trying to Interfere would not only be putting their life in Danger but might provoke the Rapist to Kill his Victim.

Besides, We are all Equal, and there are many Strong Independent Women out there.

The Question itself shows a hateful gender Bias. You could have just as Easily asked..

“Should it be the responsibility of Female bystanders to step in and prevent this from happening?"

or just

“Should it be the responsibility of bystanders to step in and prevent this from happening?"

PriestkillerSparkle · 2023-12-14T12:50:08+00:00

What is your major malfunction, dear?

Title	Quick debate:
Author	youknowthebenadryl
Upvotes	51
Comments	143
Date	December 13, 2023 10:57 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/18healr/quick_debate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/quick-debate.1240672 https://theredarchive.com/post/1240672

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