Why is Warren Farrell called a rape apologist?

marbledog · 2013-04-21T18:32:58+00:00

Farrell has acknowledged the phenomenon of "token resistance" in his writing and lectures, and he argues that we need a more nuanced understanding of sexual relations, especially between young people. Some feminists have strawmanned this stance into a defense of rape.

From The Myth of Male Power

If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal ‘no’ is committing date rape, then a woman who says `no’ with her verbal language but ‘yes’ with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says ‘no’ is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said “no” to sex even “when they meant yes.” In my own work with over 150,000 men and women – about half of whom are single – the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy’s place “just to talk” but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they’ve recently said something like “That’s far enough for now,” even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his.

We have forgotten that before we called this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. Somehow, women’s romance novels are not titled He Stopped When I Said “No”. They are, though, titled Sweet Savage Love, in which the woman rejects the hand of her gentler lover who saves her from the rapist and marries the man who repeatedly and savagely rapes her. It is this “marry the rapist” theme that not only turned Sweet Savage Love into a best-seller but also into one of women’s most enduring romance novels. And it is Rhett Butler, carrying the kicking and screaming Scarlett O’Hara to bed, who is a hero to females – not to males – in Gone With the Wind (the best selling romance novel of all time – to women). It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.”

From "Does Feminism Discriminate Against Men?" - a written debate

Robbery-by-Social-Custom: She Exists, He Pays

To shorten the period of potential rejection, men learn to pay for all of the 5 D’s-- Drinks, Dinner, Driving, Dating, and then, if he is successful at repeatedly paying for the first 4 D’s, he gets to pay for the fifth: the Diamond. Or, more precisely, a diamond with the right 3 C’s (carrots, color and clarity). Together, the expectation for him to pay for these 5 D’s can feel like robbery-by-social-custom: she exists, he pays.

The only other social transaction among humans in which the person paying is not guaranteed to receive anything in return is that between parent and child. Women who do not fully share the expectation to pay are children-by-choice; they are not women, but girls.

Few men are conscious of how the expectation to pay pressures him to take jobs he likes less only because they pay more; how this leads to stress, heart attacks, and suicides that are the male version of "my body, not my choice."

"Date Fraud"

If a man ignoring a woman's verbal "no" is committing date rape, then a woman who says "no" with her verbal language but "yes" with her body language is committing date fraud.

The purpose of the fraud? To have sexual pleasure without sexual responsibility, and therefore without guilt or shame; to reinforce the belief that he is getting a sexual favor while she is giving a sexual favor, thus that he “owes” her the 5 D’s before sex or some measure of commitment, protection, or respect after sex...

EDIT: Punctuation

roadhand · 2013-04-21T20:55:23+00:00

This is also noteworthy:

When the second wave of the women’s movement evolved in the late 1960s, Farrell’s support of it led the National Organization for Women’s New York City chapter to ask him to form a men’s group. The response to that group led to his ultimately forming some 300 additional men and women's groups and becoming the only man to be elected three times to the Board of Directors of the National Organization for Women in N.Y.C.

He has participated, and not in any small way, on both sides.

Everything went well until the mid-seventies when NOW came out against the presumption of joint custody [of children following divorces]. "I couldn't believe the people I thought were pioneers in equality were saying that women should have the first option to have children or not to have children--that children should not have equal rights to their dad.[12]"

Then the objective of feminism changed:

However, when NOW took policy positions that Farrell regarded as anti-male and anti-father, he continued supporting the expansion of women’s options[3] while adding what he felt was missing about boys, men and fathers. He is now recognized as one of the most important figures in the modern men's movement.

A consistent method of dealing with dissenters of feminism's party line has been to shame, discredit and silence by any means, whether you are male or female. Warren Farrell is a particular thorn in their paw as he is considered as one of their greatest traitors for actually questioning the direction of the movement while being a member, and using their loudest claim of ideology, equality, against them in a very public way.

They have never recovered from the perceived sleight. Source.

Bla34112 · 2013-04-21T20:01:50+00:00

The Feminist machine slanders anyone who gets in their way.

I'm sorry, but there simply isn't anything else to it.

He's being called a rape apologist because he criticized the ever expanding definition of 'rape'. They've somehow managed to convince themselves that their perspective on rape is the only one allowed, and if you question them you're a rape apologist by default, no matter what your actual position is.

Warren Farrell springs that trap, simply by openly opposing them.

Now, I'll let more industrious men than myself do the quoting for me.

NeuroticIntrovert · 2013-04-21T18:45:01+00:00

Somewhat off-topic, but if you hear Warren Farrell being called an incest supporter, particularly using a Manboobz article:

http://voiceofreaaaasoooon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/ive-seen-quotes-floating-around-about-dr.html

Grubnar · 2013-04-21T18:10:59+00:00

The main reason I have heard about is something he wrote about how sometimes a girl may say "no" but mean "yes". It is taken out of context and, if memory serves me right, meant to emphesise the importance of communication. I am sorry I do not have the actual quote.

paracog · 2013-04-21T20:56:01+00:00

Because rape is one of feminists' handiest bludgeons and they flame anyone that says or does anything that weakens their ability to wield it. This is why they minimize and avoid discussion of the phenomenon of male rape.

ekjohnson9 · 2013-04-21T18:10:41+00:00

He doesn't turn a blind eye to issues that men exclusively face in society.

PieMasterBob · 2013-04-21T22:15:29+00:00

Out of context quotes.

Funcuz · 2013-04-21T23:44:44+00:00

It certainly looks like something of a damning piece of evidence for the contention that he supports rape.

One must look at it for what it is though...it's the truth. Perhaps his phrasing was wrong but what he said is basically true. For me to appreciate the phrasing I'd also have to see the entirety of the passage rather than the one short extract presented by marbledog.

The real problem , it seems to me , is that men have a lot of difficulty distinguishing between a genuine yes and a genuine no. From there we have no choice but to ask why men would risk unwittingly raping a woman even when absolutely nothing in their history leads one to think that they're even capable of it.

The answer , of course , is the biological imperative that drives men to seek sex in the first place. It does tend to overrule what we may otherwise consider common sense.

Basically , he wants to get laid. It's a primal urge. She also has it but she is the gatekeeper. He's well aware of this fact so he embarks on a series of calculated risks. He's not actually interested in raping her but because he recognizes that she may simply be saying no for the sake of propriety he decides to push forward anyway. At this point , the only thing that will get him to understand that no does , in fact , actually mean no is if she says so in a very clear manner. One would think that a simple , whispered 'no' is enough but given this particular set of circumstances , it should be obvious to all reasonable people that if she often says 'no' but admittedly means 'yes' and he's aware of this based on her behavior so far , a whispered 'no' is NOT clear in the least.

I realize that any feminist seeing this would call me a rape apologist as well. I wish that my own statements could somehow be less inherently damning but unfortunately what I've said is a simple fact of life that virtually everybody actually knows even if not consciously.

2013-04-21T20:12:54+00:00

Because feminists don't reality.

typhonblue · 2013-04-22T04:10:02+00:00

Meanwhile a prominent feminist works to keep the rape of men invisible.

rightsbot · 2013-04-21T17:56:17+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

Sasha_ · 2013-04-21T23:14:57+00:00

I think it's because feminists can't argue with him about the ideas he raises in his books, so they resort to yellow slander.

mikesteane · 2013-04-22T01:21:32+00:00

It's their only means of attacking him. The aggression of their attacks is in proportion to the perceived threat.

2013-04-22T01:11:25+00:00

Because he is on team penis, that's why

Zeddikus · 2013-04-21T21:40:20+00:00

Because a certain percentage of women are incapable of understanding context.

Title	Why is Warren Farrell called a rape apologist?
Author	smalrebelion
Upvotes	80
Comments	93
Date	April 21, 2013 5:52 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1ct5wz/why-is-warren-farrell-called-a-rape-apologist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-is-warren-farrell-called-a-rape-apologist.1611049 https://theredarchive.com/post/1611049

Comments