Q4E Accountability

MongoBobalossus · 2024-05-25T18:27:38+00:00

Accountable for what, exactly?

Maffioze · 2024-05-25T19:41:43+00:00

1)No not really, I think it compares pretty evenly overall, however they are held accountable in different ways. I think women are significantly more accountable when it comes to childcare and household management. However in pretty much everything else, I think men are more accountable but the difference in magnitude is somewhat less so I think it cancels out pretty much.

2) taking care of children, doing household chores and more importantly learning how to do them. Also being nurturing and emotionally supportive in general.

3)admitting any kind of wrongdoing in a relationship, punishment for doing crimes, responsibility for supporting sexist/hateful ideologies and saying and supporting harmfull things, being abusive.

4)admitting wrongdoing in relationships, self-improvement, abusive behaviour, responsibility for saying sexist/bigoted things, basic responsibility for saying something stupid, caring more about truth over what's convenient.

5) anything related to caring for kids, being responsible with birth control, managing household chores, basic hygiene, adult life responsibilities, maintaining social relationships, ...

6) I think I'm fairly accountable, however I reject the idea that you have to take responsibility for the actions of other people. Some would call that a lack of accountability, I call it having self-respect and healthy boundaries. An example is me skipping classes because the professor is useless, some call that avoiding responsibility, but in my view it's the professor who's failing to take their responsibility by not providing proper teaching to the point their classes are useful. So I study at home from books instead. There are a lot of people who want to make you take responsibility for other people's failures and you shouldn't do it. However its important to always critically examine yourself often, you're probably not as virtuous, smart and without blame as you think you are so it's good to check yourself from time to time.

Enzi42 · 2024-05-25T20:40:56+00:00

I find this a very interesting and important topic from a societal (if not dating) perspective so I'll throw in my two cents.

Accountability for me is being held responsible for one's actions, for good or for evil or the myriad of gray interactions in between those two extreme points of the moral spectrum.

Since it's easier to explain a morally dark exampleif I, a man, loses control of my temper and assaulted someone I was arguing with, I would rightfully be held accountable for my actions. I would likely be charged and prosecuted, and moreover I would be subject to all sorts of social condemnation. I would be called "brutal", "violent", "an animal who can't control himself" and all sorts of other colorful insults.

Furthermore my moral character would be called into question. Hurting that individual I was arguing with would make me a bad person, someone who is dangerous and untrustworthy.

And you know what? If this was just a minor argument and I exploded like that, I would deserve those outcomes. Perhaps some of them are over the top but they are expected consequences if those actions.

Speaking of which...

On a different note (but one that will become important later on) I should address the immediate consequences of hauling off and hitting someone.

The moment I lose control and initiate physical violence, I expect to receive it in return. It is just common sense, no matter how furious I am, no matter how justified I feel, I wouldn't expect to just have the target of my attack just shake it off. I exoect violence to beget violence. Again, it might seem like an odd tangent but I will get back to this.

Something I have noticed is that women are not held to the same standards that I just waxed poetic about. At least not socially, legally is a whole other sphere. I am aware that men receive much harsher sentences than women for similar crimes, but my knowledge of the legal field is limited and I'm not comfortable going there.

What I will say is that morally and socially women's wrongdoings are looked upon with a far more favorable eye than a man's even if they are of the same nature. So many times there is an excuse, a minimization and even a justification.

There are times when those trying to hold her responsible for what she did are subjected to a barrage of manipulative tactics from shaming to playing on kindness to make them back off.

You can see it on social media all the time. I'm not going to barrage the thread with examples, but a truly nasty one that stands out in my mind is a post here on Reddit where the OP's sister in law hit his toddler-age son (not simple corporal punishment but an actual severe beating) because the little boy was making top much noise.

The sister in law was supposedly traumatized from a year-long abusive relationship wherein the abuser would often scream and yell at her. Thus she hated raided voices and she lashed out at the child when he was being too loud for her to handle. The father (the OP) understandably flew off the handle jf berated and yelled at the sister in law for what she had done to his child.

But you know what? So many people in that thread took the sister in law's side and went in on the father for his reaction. He was "insensitive", he was "being harsh on someone who needed understanding and compassion" and "he needed to be more trauma-informed".

Because of course an adult woman can't be responsible for beating a two year old boy, her mental health is far more important than holding her accountable/s.

And I could go on and on. Heck look at the lady who lured her husband away from the house so she could kill all of their children. Look how many people (many of them other women) took her side and made a damn hashtag about supporting her.

While I think women are held to the same legal standards as men overall, morally I've seen so many get a pass or at least a lesser judgment on their acts of cruelty and even evil. Sometimes literally for no other reason than they are women.

And speaking of accountability, I hold both genders responsible for this sad state of affairs. Men have an instinctive drive to protect and stand up for women, a drive that is often further pushed into us from a young age. It makes us not only minimize, excuse or justify women's wrongdoings, it makes us stand against those who don't do this. We slit our own throats with a smile and call it righteousness.

Women of course have their own part to play. I cannot tell you how many times I've argued with a woman about something nasty she's said, only for her to try to make me feel bad for taking offense or trying to hold her accountable.

"You're being selfish. I'm worried about my life and wellbeing and you're making it about your ego! You're so selfish/mean"

"I shouldn't have to be kind or watch my words. Just existing as a woman is pure misery, the least you can do is accept that I'm going to be hateful sometimes"

"I'm so disappointed in you, I thought you were a better person than to make my insults all about you. Maybe try having some empathy".

And so on and so forth. These are classic techniques (or at least my approximation of them; I can give actual verbatim quotes if desired) designed to push away any kind of accountability. The woman in question is a victim, thus her cruelty must be excused or you are the bad guy.

And finally we come down to my earlier point about retaliation and fighting that I promised I'd address.

Something that baffles me (and that I have asked good faith questions about here, in vain) is that a large degree of women don't seem to understand that initiating strifeband conflict whether physical or otherwise will result in an exchange of "blows".

Again something I've seen happen a lot is that so many women seem to not comprehend that spewing anti male rhetoric will result in men becoming bitter and hateful and doing the same in kind. I have tried on many occasions to explain that "lords of misogny" like the infamous Andrew Tate only arise due to a plethora of societally accepted misandry.

Yet this point is met with anger and outrage, often with the point that men have no right to do anything in response to this kind of rhetoric apart from sit there and take it on the chin. It's a response completely detached from reality.

So yes, these are my feelings on gendered accountability. Well, somewhat my feelings, I had to compress this into a single post after all.

TheRedPillRipper · 2024-05-25T22:41:06+00:00

to make things clearer

Accountability isn’t gendered. It is though a skill. Just like any other. Personally, I had always considered myself a fairly accountable person. It wasn’t till after my first divorce, and subsequent therapy, that I was able to get a truly objective viewpoint. On my world view.

On some level, we all possess Self Awareness. It’s however one’s world view, one’s perspective, that impacts how far one takes Self Responsibility.

Godspeed and good luck!

EulenWatcher · 2024-05-25T18:48:45+00:00

I don’t think in the general sense, that men or women are more accountable. My father, for example, never admits when his stance is wrong, and also doesn’t apologize. He will just double down when he doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Examples of people failing to take accountability include:

Cheaters. “The opportunity just came up,” or “she/he wasn’t satisfying my needs,” etc.
Creeps and SA. As a lesbian, I get that whole “our eyes are just drawn to it,” because mine are as well. But it’s not polite to stare, or criticize a woman for her choice of clothing. People also saying shit like “she was asking for it,” or “what was she wearing?”

This pins the accountability of men’s actions on the woman.

This isn’t a gendered issue, mind you. It affects women to a greater degree. Rapists in general are nigh never punished sufficiently. Such a crime has a 5% rate of conviction.

Murders. I’ve seen instances where men have killed their family and themselves and subsequent headlines focused on male mental health. I’ve seen men get cheated on and kill their partners, and the woman would be blamed for her murder. Hell, women have to take accountability even when the victim of murder… even if the thing they are supposed to be held accountable for is blatantly false. There was a recent murder case, that of Carey Birmingham, in which he shot and killed his wife. All over YouTube there were false rumors about the fact that she stole $200k from him and gave it to her affair partner. Infuriating, right? Well, turns out it wasn’t true. I researched the case extensively and nothing regarding stolen money came up.
Burden of proof.

A. This depends on the context and can go both ways. For example, men have to bear the burden of proof when it comes to reporting sexual assault. People more easily believe women, even to the detriment of men.

B.Women have to be more responsible for evidence to substantiating their arguments, as people are less likely to believe their factual claims. Meanwhile a man, in some instances, can say something without proof and he wont be questioned.

“Boys will be boys.”

Initially a harmless saying that has been misused for when sexual assault happens. When women get harassed at school, the dress code is updated. So it’s ultimately blamed on the women, because apparently “boys will be boys” and SA is normal.

Making comments on Women’s bodies, judging them openly for how they look, holding random women accountable because they aren’t held to your standards. This is what I’ve seen as common behavior in men, especially older generations.

Hateful speech. This is a big one. In-group A makes fun of out-group A and creates an environment where bashing on out-group A becomes acceptable. They foster a culture in which offensive or dismissive behaviors towards the out-group and aren’t held accountable for what they say. Then when you confront them about it, they shut down and say “I was just joking!!” Now replace “in group a” or “out group b” with men and women, women and men, white people and black people, straight people and gay people, etc.

IronDBZ · 2024-05-25T19:18:53+00:00

Yes, men are generally less able to skirt around consequences, socially or legally, things tend to stick. If I accuse a female coworker of harassment, they might pull us to the side for some kind of arbitration. If they accuse me, I won't have a job by the end of the week. Women's transgressions are generally seen as far more manageable and excusable. So yeah, men are more accountable by default. We're touchable.
Pretty much any consequence that women can face for anything. Eviction for not paying bills, etc.
The issues with accountability more apply to social situations than not. A woman can scream and hit on a man in public and the guy gets blamed, man asks woman out respectfully woman doesn't reject them in civilized way yet more people will back up the woman, lesser sentences on crimes, not admitting blame for things they obviously did, blatant double standards and hypocrisy, refusing to acknowledge the reality of their own behavior (tends to go hand in hand with weaponized incompetence).
The other side of every situation I just mentioned. Very rare to have a situation where both a man and a woman get off easy.
Unreported crimes, unprosecuted crimes. Anonymous harassment, in person harassment among people that know the man but don't know the woman sometimes. Partner abuse if they're a police officer. Partner abuse if the partner doesn't report.
I think I admit my faults and apologize as much as or maybe even more than I should. I try to be even-handed and conciliatory when the situation allows for it. It's part of having integrity. And I try to apply it to situations where I deal with other people.

giveuporfindaway · 2024-05-26T17:12:38+00:00

Women are not accountable, they're overgrown children. It would be stupid to give a child the right to drink and drive and then blame it for getting in an accident.

AutoModerator · 2024-05-25T18:24:36+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Cethlinnstooth · 2024-05-26T06:08:00+00:00

I think broadly speaking, normal men and women are similarly accountable. The vast majority....those in the bulging centre part of the graph for most of their measures...are similarly accountable.

If you're looking at those who are in specific niches such as introverted sexually unsuccessful man or introverted homebody woman or crazy disinhibited individuals or whatever then it varies remarkably according to the group.

So if you compare our problem child demographic we mainly deal with here, the introverted sexually unsuccessful young man, against for example batshit crazy but attractive young women those guys are on average more accountable than some chick who gets mild hypothermia every Friday and Saturday night because she doesn't take a cardigan with her because it will ruin the look. Those guys at least take a hoodie with them if the night might get a bit nippy.

But...compare them against a niche demographic that is rather closer in the major personality attributes to them...the introverted homebody girl...the introverted girls are not only winning that race they're coming back to complete a victory lap before their male equivalent even finishes the race. Introverted girls are more likely to have savings, less likely to go bankrupt, more likely to have some long-term financial plan for themselves, more likely to be a functional contributing member of their parent's household if they still live with their parents, more likely to have basic household skills to take care of themselves.

How accountable am I? Idk.I don't think most people in their fifties see things the way people in their twenties see things. I've got strengths and flaws and I try to prioritise and I keep going. One task after another. Eventually I'm going to just...stop. A stroke a heart attack a car accident. Possibly I wind down a bit first....cancer, diabetes, dementia. Am I as perfectly prepared as I should be and have I been provident to self and others? Well y'know...I have strengths and flaws and I try to prioritise and I keep going and try to give enough of myself to the priorities, there's really little more to say about most people being accountable than that. That's the heart and soul.of accountability. The to do list. What makes it on and are you actually keeping at it.

Junior_Ad_3086 · 2024-05-26T06:45:49+00:00

i would say women are less accountable when it comes to dating because of the general societal messaging. guy struggles with women? he gets told to work on himself, improve his social skills, dress and groom better, change how he meets women, improve his finances and so on. of course there will be voices shifting the blame on women but generally men are pretty realistic with each other and offer practical advice. it's hard to live in lala land when reality blatantly slaps you in the face day in and day out.

woman struggles with men however? it's his loss, men are the problem (insecure, avoidant, narc bla bla), she will find her special someone who loves her just the way she is and so on. a lot of the time women tell other women whatever makes them feel better in the moment instead of what might be uncomfortable truths. it seems like the only thing a lot of women think they need to work on are their boundaries when it comes to dating, which is only a small part of the equation. other practical advice is often labelled misogynistic, pickme etc.

it's a lot easier to be delusional as a woman (as far as dating goes) because they still get attention and matches on dating apps and the illusion of being desirable (for more than sex) even if none of the men they 'date' want a relationship with them. women get rejected on the backend while men get rejected on the frontend and many women conflate sexual interest with relationship interest. they need to understand that their league is the guy who commits to them, not the guy from tinder who bangs them on a slow tuesday. there's a massive disparity between what kind of women guys sleep with and what kind of women they would want a relationship with (and it's not just related to looks). this disparity is a lot smaller for women so i think it's not very intuitive for them to understand this dynamic.

Intelligent-Bad-2950 · 2024-05-26T20:43:14+00:00

Everyone is accountable by default for all of their actions by the results they get.

Willow-girl · 2024-05-27T01:22:59+00:00

No

2.-6. I do not think accountability breaks along gender lines.

If it's to be, it's up to me.

apresonly · 2024-05-27T17:46:07+00:00

1/4 divorced men completely abandon their children.

when its so common for men to leave the lives of the children they brought into this world there is no question about who is more accountable.

Lilrip1998 · 2024-05-29T20:31:57+00:00

You’re accountable for yourself and your actions.

No one owes you anything and sometimes things don’t work out the way you want them to.

That’s it that’s the whole thing.

superlurkage · 2024-05-25T19:24:19+00:00

Women

Because we’re not complaining about male accountability

Meanwhile, men deny their own involvement in their issues, particularly with regard to their thirst

“Women have so many options! They think they’re better than they are!”

Well, uh, exactly who is making them think they are better and have options? Elephants?

Significant-Level-14 · 2024-05-25T18:52:06+00:00

I literally influenced you to write this. Call me influential

jazzmaster1992 · 2024-05-25T18:53:36+00:00

I think the real factor that determines how much someone is "held accountable", aka punished for anything, is how much money, power, and influence they have over a situation, court or institution. It's why corporations and celebrities get away with the most vile shit, and most of the rest of us have to play by the rules or else. It also comes down to interpersonal relationships and biases. Your boss doesn't get fired for his bad decision making that tanks the business before you do, when he can just blame your "performance issues" and put you on a PIP before canning your ass. But also, you may not get fired because your boss likes you too much, and chooses to look the other way when you technically broke a workplace rule.

I could see an argument for women being held less accountable legally speaking , but again, it's hard to always boil it down to simply one gender receiving more favor, since we don't always readily know what money, status or influence the given party has. Sure, there's rich and powerful men and women, but I hesitate to make a sweeping claim that the average woman could basically get away with murder the way a celebrity, politician or CEO could.

But outside of this, when it comes to every day affairs and civil disputes, I don't really believe one gender or group of average people has it all that easy. When someone you don't like seems to not be held accountable the way you believe they should, it doesn't mean they and everyone else like them should be taken to task because your feelings got hurt.

Dertross · 2024-05-25T22:05:23+00:00

Accountable:

(of a person, organization, or institution) required or expected to justify actions or decisions; responsible.

I'm noticing an unsettling amount of people in this thread operating on shame based morality rather than guilt base morality. They speak of an external authority that needs to exist for people to be held accountable. When it's really as simple as reviewing a circumstance and seeing what factors existed that lead to it. Yes, some of those factors will be your own decisions. Women seem to be allergic to acknowledging that part, however. Hence that "Women don't take accountability for their actions" meme.

So I'm only going to speak in terms of self imposed accountability:

Do you think one gender is more accountable than the other? Why?

Men. Because men hold themselves accountable in addition to society.

What are examples of women being accountable?

Whenever a woman has sex she regrets but doesn't blame anything external for it happening.

What are examples of women not being accountable?

If a man and woman are drunk, the woman's decision to have sex and the male also being drunk being made irrelevant. Choosing and staying with abusive men. Going to parties and getting intoxicated.

What are examples of men being accountable?

Acknowledging it when told they are worthless boring losers who need to get a hobby, get in shape, learn to socialize, get more money when they are having trouble with acquiring romantic relationships. The redpill is a result of this.

What are examples of men not being accountable?

Similar the above point, acting as if "just being themselves" is enough for women to find them sexually attractive, without thinking about if there is anything about themselves that a woman would find attractive.

McTitty3000 · 2024-05-25T20:12:05+00:00

Do you think one gender is more accountable than the other? Why?

Generally speaking yes, men in large part because we've had to be more accountable, men generally lead society and are the leaders of their household as it should be, and there's generally more grace given to women in terms of their screw-ups and everything, I know times have changed with the economical implications but for the longest time unless you were going to college or something , it was hard to respect the guy who was like 24, 25 years old and still living with his parents, whereas with women nobody really cares if a woman is 21, 22, 25 living with her parents. I will say in general the last 40 to 50 years has severely screwed up accountability for everybody

What are examples of women being accountable?

Given the nature of the sub I'll just stick to a relationship and dating examples: like if a woman cheats on her husband, and goes to him and tells him with no excuses, even knowing that it might end the relationship I would say she's holding herself accountable for her actions, or something a little less tame like let's say a woman likes to post provocative photos on social media or has only fans, instead of complaining about what guys SHOULD find attractive if she just tells herself "I'm going to do this and I understand that it's going to disqualify me from a lot of men and I'm okay with that", that to me is being accountable

What are examples of women not being accountable?

"I was 20 and I was banging a 50-year-old, there was a power dynamic, I was gr00000med by the patriarchy" those kind of feminist idiots, or to go back to an example I said in number two, if she gets CAUGHT cheating by her husband, and then says "I was in a bad place, I'm getting professional help" that to me is more so "I'm sorry I got caught" than taking accountability

What are examples of men being accountable?

What are examples of men not being accountable?

I mean you could do similar stuff that I laid out in the previous two examples, I look recently at like Shaquille O'Neal admitting that his cheating ruined his family and that he doesn't blame his ex-wife for divorcing him or not ever being in love with him, now I don't know all the specifics of their relationship but he's never ran away from that, no recent example of not being accountable would be like the Puffy apology, that tape took place 8 years ago and he initially denied any wrongdoing, but once he knew it was out there he came with the typical BS apology, didn't actually even apologize to Cassie in the video and was only sorry that he got caught

How accountable are you in your personal life?

Very , going back to the age Gap thing when I was 19 I was in a relationship with a woman who was 40 when we started dating and we dated for quite a few years, I pursued her, there's no scenario in which I was a victim of anything, I haven't let society look back at that in gaslight me into thinking that something was wrong about that, I hold myself accountable with my diet and my fitness, I hold myself accountable in my marriage, I can comfortably say that I've never told my wife a lie unless I was trying to surprise her for her birthday or something like that, I told her when we started dating I'm not doing monogamy, I told her what I expect from her in terms of holding herself accountable, and vice versa and so on and so forth.

Title	Q4E Accountability
Author	EulenWatcher
Upvotes	4
Comments	81
Date	May 25, 2024 6:24 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1d0i6ut/q4e_accountability/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4e-accountability.1519518 https://theredarchive.com/post/1519518

Comments