When she's finally ready to settle down

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I mean, I'm not a fan of hand over fist free shit by the government either, but... what's your solution? Because while I have my small government, pro-market sensibilities... I'm also not insensitive to the arguments that come from the left. Black people got a raw fucking deal in this country, FOR the "crime" of being black. And it was largely perpetuated upon them by whites.

Like, I get that sucks to hear and it sucks to be lumped in with that, but you undoubtedly did benefit from that arrangement and it's not unreasonable for them to point this out and be demanding a better deal. Ol' Malcolm was right that you don't just pull the knife out of a man's back to right the wrong of stabbing him, you get him medical attention and you see him back on his feet before your bill is paid.

I get that you didn't own slaves , but like it or not your ancestors saddled you with that dark past. We have the power and the ability to really make that difference. To help bridge those socioeconomic gaps and create a truly opportunity driven society.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

White Americans on average don't have larger percentage of slave owner ancestors than black Americans.

you don't just pull the knife out of a man's back to right the wrong of stabbing him, you get him medical attention and you see him back on his feet before your bill is paid.

We're not talking about a man. The black Americans today are not the same people as those 200 years ago, and neither are the white ones.

This is "We Wuz Kangs" bullshit -- "If there had been no slavery, I would be from a rich family, so you owe me." By the same logic whites could say "If there had been no slavery, you would be stuck in Sierra Leone making $10/week, so you owe me."

As long as Americans focus on resentment and demanding payouts in exchange for "transgenerational trauma" instead of focusing on treating everyone as equals and fighting discrimination, things will not get better.

[–]the_calibre_cat2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

We're not talking about a man.

It's a metaphor.

The black Americans today are not the same people as those 200 years ago, and neither are the white ones.

The effects of history don't die with the men and women who perpetrated them.

"If there had been no slavery, I would be from a rich family, so you owe me."

This is not the claim that was made. At all. And I suspect you know that.

By the same logic whites could say "If there had been no slavery, you would be stuck in Sierra Leone making $10/week, so you owe me."

...no that actually isn't at all how logic works. If there had been no slavery, they'd be stick in Sierra Leone making $10/week and they wouldn't owe you jack shit - but likewise generally neither would you owe them.

But.

Slavery did happen. And that sucks, especially given that I know you didn't have anything to do with it and maybe it even is milked to a degree today, but none of that changes the fact that that institution, coupled with subsequent institutionally racist policies (Jim Crow, segregation), set back the African American community socioeconomically - and that the torch of history has been passed to you. And to me. And to all of us.

As long as Americans focus on resentment and demanding payouts in exchange for "transgenerational trauma" instead of focusing on treating everyone as equals and fighting discrimination, things will not get better.

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, willful ignorance and disregard of historical injustice simply allows old wounds to fester. This isn't a little thing. "Oh those people took all your land and destroyed your way of life, get over it!", "Oh those people literally bought and sold your family as property, get over it!" that shit just doesn't square. Especially when we're talking about shit that happened a couple hundred years ago, tops.

It's not the worst man. The best things in life are hard. You don't have to be a pushover bitch to recognize these things and act to rectify these wrongs. Just because native Americans have a valid claim to historical grievance does not invalidate you as a human being. It doesn't make some Native Americans lazy assholes who just want to milk your paycheck - some are. Guarantee there's accountability-pushers in every subgroup.

But we don't have to be them. We can step up where or ancestors failed. It's okay. Responsibility is manly.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

set back the African American community socioeconomically

this only makes sense to racists.

if you're born in poverty to a drug addicted single mother in a dangerous area, you will have a hard life through no fault of your own. that's true regardless if you're white or black.
and if you're born into a stable upper class family in a safe area, you're gonna have an easy life that you didn't do anything to earn. that's also true regardless if you're white or black.

Woke racists hate whites, especially poor whites. They want to hurt white kids born into shitty situations and give advantages (on top of all those they already have) to upper class black kids.

Why? Because the race is owed something.

No. The race isn't being owed anything. Only racists think in those terms.

We need to help kids born into shitty situations. Since black children have a higher risk of being born into shitty situations, this would still disproportionately help black children.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

if you're born in poverty to a drug addicted single mother in a dangerous area, you will have a hard life through no fault of your own. that's true regardless if you're white or black.

Agreed.

But it's far more likely that you'll be born to a drug-addicted single mother in a dangerous area if she grew up poor, and if she's black, she is overwhelmingly statistically more likely to have grown up poor.

Why is that, I wonder? Did her parents just not try hard enough? Or maybe they, their parents, their parents' parents, and their parents' parents' parents didn't have the social support and community that white people have generally had, in no small part thanks to the institution of slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation had?

and if you're born into a stable upper class family in a safe area, you're gonna have an easy life that you didn't do anything to earn. that's also true regardless if you're white or black.

Again, guy who has cited statistics in two comments, the fact is that you are overwhelmingly more likely to enjoy this privilege if you're white than if you're black. And that sucks. I'm not trying to be like "FEEL BAD FOR BEING WHITE", but I'm asking you to... feel bad that some people, overwhelmingly people of color, go through this.

You didn't do this. It's not your fault, and you're not wrong or evil for placing a high level of importance on personal responsibility - not everyone who's black is poor because of historical injustices, sometimes people are lazy assholes. We don't have sympathy for lazy assholes but, when an entire race suffers from generally worse socioeconomic metrics than almost every other race in the same country, and that race just so happens to be the one that has faced grotesque social injustices perpetrated against them in recent history... I mean, it's not that much of a stretch to suggest that maybe those injustices had something to do with it?

Woke racists hate whites, especially poor whites.

Yeah, man, I get that. I'm not even dogging on you for hating those people. That's why I'm trying really careful here with my words, because believe it or not I completely understand your perspective. I used to hold this perspective.

I was wrong. It's possible to acknowledge the reality of the world we live in, the momentum of history, and the effects it has on the people living in the present. I don't like a whiner. But slavery was actually a pretty big fucking deal - my ancestors were from Britain and emigrated here in the late 1800s. There might be some slaveholding ancestry but that's really neither here nor there - it's wrong for a man to be judged upon circumstances beyond his control, and it's wrong for a man to put into a fight with his arm tied behind his back. White, black, Jew or Gentile, I don't give a damn - man to man, that is wrong, and if it's wrong, we, right now, have a duty to address that.

We need to help kids born into shitty situations. Since black children have a higher risk of being born into shitty situations, this would still disproportionately help black children.

I mean, I'd happily take that compromise, but... what exactly are we talking about here? Because I hear this all the time and (believe you me I'm not innocent) then we can talk talk talk, but what about action? What do we actually DO? Because that's where this conversation started - I don't really like free government handouts either, I think the right-wingers make pretty good arguments there (and have a better handle on the economics/incentives than the lefties do), but I don't know of an alternative.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes. That's why addressing the issues caused by poverty, addiction, etc (in a race neutral way) will automatically help black people more.

It isn't JUST about help, man. Part of it is about facing the reality of our history, and choosing a path forward from it - and I submit to you that facing that history, and squaring it not just with our black countrymen but also ourselves, will be more fulfilling and more rewarding than trying to avoid it and pretend it didn't happen.

Knowing the history is the easy part. Acting on it is the hard part.

No, I think a white woman in that situation is similarly likely to have grown up poor as well.

She would. But she is statistically less likely to have done so - which was my claim.

Doesn't matter to the kids why they are born into that situation.

Keep telling yourself that, man. Kids become adults, and adults concern themselves with purpose.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

not everyone who's black is poor because of historical injustices, sometimes people are lazy assholes.

Of course slavery (and all the racist shit afterwards) is the main reason why black children are seven times less likely to be born into poverty than white children.

Nobody is responsible for where they are born and how they grow up (most of all the first years). You can't choose your childhood.

We need to help kids born into shitty situations. Since black children have a higher risk of being born into shitty situations, this would still disproportionately help black children.

I mean, I'd happily take that compromise, but... what exactly are we talking about here?

That's the big question for race-based "solutions" as well, isn't it? What are we actually going to do, and is it going work? It's difficult.

I don't really like free government handouts either, I think the right-wingers make pretty good arguments there (and have a better handle on the economics/incentives than the lefties do), but I don't know of an alternative.

I agree. The economy is fucked. Something has to change fundamentally.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Of course we're counting all ancestors of white Americans. You want all white Americans to pay, no? We're counting the ones whose ancestors came from Europe after the end of slavery, and we're counting the ones whose ancestors fought to end slavery.

If you want to target only those Americans who actually owe something to slavery, I'm on board: investigate the ancestry of every American. We'll probably find a few hundred thousand wealthy families that can trace non-trivial parts of their fortune to slavery. They are the ones who owe. Ironically they're likely also the ones who use race discourse to protect class privilege.

But you don't want to do that. You want to punish every white kid born today, even the ones with less than nothing. And that's racist.

doesn't matter who PERPETRATED it (because they're all dead) - what matters is who was AFFECTED by it.

They're also dead. Nobody alive today is affected by American slavery.

Black Americans are disproportionately affected by POVERTY and DISCRIMINATION. Why not address those things? Two advantages of doing that: (1) it's not racist, (2) it can actually improve things.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You want all white Americans to pay, no? We're counting the ones whose ancestors came from Europe after the end of slavery, and we're counting the ones whose ancestors fought to end slavery.

I mean, realistically, if I were king, everyone would pay in. The point of this is to heal wounds, and to mend a society. Ancestors of slaves would receive the payments, but they would still pay into the fund. We're a society, that part has to be integral.

I'm just saying, your statistic citing slave ownership from 1860 and my ideal policy of reparations in the 21st century are not the same things.

If you want to target only those Americans who actually owe something to slavery, I'm on board: investigate the ancestry of every American.

If I wanted to destroy the country, sure. The guilty parties are dead. I'm not interested in prosecuting the sons for the sins of their fathers. I'm interested in healing wounds and being a better, more moral country.

Black Americans are disproportionately affected by POVERTY and DISCRIMINATION.

To suggest that nobody alive today is affected by American slavery, and then in the next breath say that Black Americans are affected by poverty and discrimination, is missing the link, man.

Why not address those things?

...why not address the slavery? We never really did. And we should. You didn't do it. And I didn't do it. But it was done. And it was not okay. I think you'd find that we'd be a lot more of a unified society if we faced that part of our history, and DID the hard thing and helped those who were affected by it.

And believe it or not, man, I think you'd probably feel good about it. You and me and millions of other white dudes would feel pretty damn good doing a good thing, facing the dark parts of our history and doing right by those hurt by it, than by trying to keep fighting against a guilt that isn't even required of us.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I guess there is a lot of racist resentment among American blacks against white people in general, regardless of their (lack of) connection to slavery.

And your idea of reparations would "heal" that? I doubt it.

I'm not interested in prosecuting the sons for the sins of their fathers.

A father steals a necklace, bequeaths it to his son. The daughter of the owner of the stolen necklace finds it in the son's possession, and takes it back from the son.
A father steals ten horses. Nine horses die. He bequeaths the last horse to his son. The daughter of the owner of the stolen horses takes a horse from every man in the street.

The first option seems more fair to me.

To suggest that nobody alive today is affected by American slavery, and then in the next breath say that Black Americans are affected by poverty and discrimination, is missing the link, man.

No I'm not missing the link. Discrimination and poverty are not slavery.

...why not address the slavery?

Slavery has been illegal since 1865.

I think you'd find that we'd be a lot more of a unified society if we faced that part of our history, and DID the hard thing and helped those who were affected by it.

The last surviving American slave died (at age 130) in 1971. We can't help him.

And believe it or not, man, I think you'd probably feel good about it.

I would find it a racist injustice. Neither I nor my ancestors had anything to do with American slavery.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I guess there is a lot of racist resentment among American blacks against white people in general, regardless of their (lack of) connection to slavery.

Man, but that's just it, and that's... probably where and why they find white people, as a group, fucking clueless about this. And it's why I have both sympathy, and frustration here - you don't fucking know what it's like. They are five or six generations downstream from slavery, four or five generations downstream from Jim Crow, and two or three generations downstream from segregation.

You and me are not. It is the height of hubris to assume that they have a "lack of" connection to slavery - the fact that they are standing on and living off of the North American continent is a pretty fucking clear and present connection to slavery. That IS part of their identity and where I feel sympathy for whites is that... you and I... don't have that. We don't have a unifying struggle. We don't have a purpose and so it's hard for us to imagine it, and that can lead us to insensitively brushing it off as a "lack of connection".

But they have a connection to it. They have a connection to their struggle. They have a connection to their difference in this country, being 13% of the population and sticking out like a sore goddamn thumb. You and I will never experience that unless we were to go to Nairobi or some shit.

And your idea of reparations would "heal" that? I doubt it.

I think it would. And this wouldn't be a one-way thing, it's like a healthy couple having a fight - once something is addressed, it's shitty to bring it up in the fight again. Doesn't mean we forget about it, but you can't sit there and call this country IRREDEEMABLY RACIST from your little bitching perch in the NYTimes right after we collectively pay out of our own blood, sweat and tears to face that dark part of our history... that would be in pretty poor fucking taste.

But likewise, the goal shouldn't be "we're doing this so you'll stop bitching at us", otherwise... it would be justified. The goal should be "we're doing this because you were wronged, and while this probably STILL doesn't make it right, it's an effort to face the injustices of the past and try to heal our society". For fuck's sake, dude, the Japanese who were interned got $20,000 each in 1988 - and like that's shitty, but comparatively internment camps were a fucking cakewalk compared to slavery.

The first option seems more fair to me.

I would agree, but the dynamics change when you're talking generations down the line, and when you're talking about a society, and when you're talking about THIS society, right now. America used to be a nation that understood why it was a nation. But things have changed and now... we don't. Why are we a nation? Do we deserve to be one? Should we be? I think so, but... hell, maybe I'm yearning for something that nobody else wants.

No I'm not missing the link. Discrimination and poverty are not slavery.

You don't think that they might've been seeded and perpetuated or even caused, in large part, by the long-running institution of slavery? You don't think that freeing slaves, but not compensating them or giving them property, might cause them to live in poverty? It's not like the white society they were freed into was just starting off - they all had their houses and shops and shit.

And discrimination? Like... slavery can't not exist without that.

Slavery has been illegal since 1865.

But the wrong and pain it caused was not fixed by that. That was good, but that was "pulling the knife out". We should have rendered medical attention then. That we didn't does not absolve us of our obligation to do so now. It is the right thing to do.

The last surviving American slave died (at age 130) in 1971. We can't help him.

We can probably help his posterity, though. Any father would be thankful for that.

I would find it a racist injustice. Neither I nor my ancestors had anything to do with American slavery.

I mean, if you're living in America today, you certainly benefited from it.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But they have a connection to it. They have a connection to their struggle.

No, they have a connection to each other. Based on a mythology of struggle.

once something is addressed, it's shitty to bring it up in the fight again. Doesn't mean we forget about it, but you can't sit there and call this country IRREDEEMABLY RACIST from your little bitching perch in the NYTimes right after we collectively pay out of our own blood, sweat and tears to face that dark part of our history... that would be in pretty poor fucking taste.

I don't think that's gonna stop them. Organizations, whose funding relies on white guilt and black resentment, have no choice but to keep fanning the flames. Nothing can be good enough, because if it is they lose their income.

"we're doing this because you were wronged, and while this probably STILL doesn't make it right, it's an effort to face the injustices of the past and try to heal our society".

But they weren't wronged, and not by us.

Some other people with similar skin were wronged until 150 years ago.

For fuck's sake, dude, the Japanese who were interned got $20,000 each in 1988 - and like that's shitty, but comparatively internment camps were a fucking cakewalk compared to slavery.

Yeah, slavery was far worse.

But the bill awarded money only to those who were personally interned. "Anyone who spent any time in an internment camp will be eligible for an award, which will be tax free. Awards will go only to those who were actually interned, not to the estates of internees who are dead."

America used to be a nation that understood why it was a nation. But things have changed and now... we don't.

Yeah. Who benefits from that?

You don't think that freeing slaves, but not compensating them or giving them property, might cause them to live in poverty? It's not like the white society they were freed into was just starting off - they all had their houses and shops and shit.

All white people had their houses and shops and shit? LMAO dude, you're intelligent in general, but that's a truly retarded claim.

Not even the majority had houses. The majority were farmhands, or miners, or shit like that. Until 1912 most of the western US states didn't even exist yet. And families with houses had five children, at most one of those children and his future wife would be able to stay in that house. Most children didn't go to school either. The large majority of immigrants from Europe arrived in the US with nothing.

discrimination? Like... slavery can't not exist without that.

Ice cream cannot exist without water, but water isn't ice cream.

But the wrong and pain it caused was not fixed by that.

It's not fixable, not without a time machine.

Neither I nor my ancestors had anything to do with American slavery.

I mean, if you're living in America today, you certainly benefited from it.

Certainly less than today's black Americans, who would be living in West Africa if it wasn't for the trans-atlantic slave trade. Or maybe not?

In order to determine who benefits how much from American slavery, we would need to compare our world with those in alternate universes, in which the USA never had slavery. What would such worlds look like?

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, they have a connection to each other. Based on a mythology of struggle.

It isn't mythos, man. The war the cost the greatest number of casualties in the United States was the one about slavery. Zeus, like, doesn't exist and never did - that's mythology. Slavery, though, and the epic conflict to end it? That fucking happened. And after all that bloodshed, Jim Crow and segregation still fucking happened - segregation not even that long ago.

I don't think that's gonna stop them. Organizations, whose funding relies on white guilt and black resentment, have no choice but to keep fanning the flames. Nothing can be good enough, because if it is they lose their income.

But they only have flames if people believe in it, and I have more faith in my countrymen than that. Don't let the cynic win!

Yeah. Who benefits from that?

China, mostly.

But they weren't wronged, and not by us.

Some other people with similar skin were wronged until 150 years ago.

And I'm arguing that the legacy of that wrongdoing is still felt, today, in the form of discrimination and poverty.

All white people had their houses and shops and shit? LMAO dude, you're intelligent in general, but that's a truly retarded claim.

The point was that they had something, whereas free men walking off of the land that they expected to die on as slaves had nothing with which to enter the economy with. Their families, their posterity, apart from being descendant from an undeniably oppressed people, got an unequal "start" in the country that had built a not-insignificant percentage of its economy on the backs of their ancestors. It wasn't fair then, and the effects of that unfairness are felt now.

It's not fixable, not without a time machine.

We can't undo the past, but we can change its legacy.

Certainly less than today's black Americans, who would be living in West Africa if it wasn't for the trans-atlantic slave trade. Or maybe not?

This argument amounts to "you should be thankful we enslaved your ancestors, because otherwise you'd be living in a shithole country in Africa right now". I'll refrain from getting into colonialism right now, but...

In order to determine who benefits how much from American slavery, we would need to compare our world with those in alternate universes, in which the USA never had slavery. What would such worlds look like?

No idea, and we're not given that luxury. But not facing our past dooms us to continue living in the shade of that guilt.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]red-tea-rex1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For most white Americans today, the only connection to "those people" (who actually did those things) isn't even ancestral relation

I mean, that's not true dude. The genetics didn't just vanish over a paltry five generations, people are absolutely related and have familial lineage to the people who settled here and effectively invaded land that was being used by the indiginous peoples here. It's actually a pretty good direct, historical example of how capitalist property norms are not voluntary - they sure weren't "voluntary" to the people who lived here and used the land before capitalists arrived and started cordoning off land previously available to all.

If Europeans held those kinds of historical grudges against ethnic groups there would never be peace in Europe.

I mean, that's not true. And to suggest it isn't is ridiculous, Germany does have that stain of "started two fucking World Wars and systemically murdered 10 million people that one time" on them, still.

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]jyfjdjgfdhgfdfds1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Of course not. But it's not a uniquely white thing.

You're really hung up on this. I never said it was, but in the United States, the primary benefactors of slavery were white, as were the primary enforcers of it. Either way, that's not my focus - my focus is on righting a wrong, not blaming a race.

And there aren't any non-white peoples who feel that guilty that their ancestors took their land from whoever lived there before.

That is probably not true, but also doesn't invalidate the argument. We're Americans. Let's lead by example.

Compared to all of history it's been extremely peaceful since the end of WWII.

Thanks to Pax Americana, and to a lesser extent the E.U, yeah.

Idk, do you feel like things have been getting better in the past 10 years? I mean obviously things are better than in the 1980s, but I'm not sure we're on the right track currently.

Yes and no. Yes, in that observably, we ARE doing better. More minorities own houses, graduate from college, own businesses, have higher incomes, have access to healthcare, etc. Objectively things are improving, and so this is where I can see the frustration with the New York Times' opinion writers putting some bullshit article about "whiteness", reducing you and me and every white person to some kind of common and inherent oppressive tendency. I fucking hate that, you will not catch me defending those people - even if my rhetoric and their rhetoric overlap, I do think that there is absolutely a point where racial activism becomes actively racist, yes, against whites.

Those people aren't helping. That's where we're getting worse. To throw you another bone, at some level there DOES need to be an acceptance of personal responsibility, and membership among society - but, I qualify this with the condition that it is not unreasonable for blacks to want that dark chapter of history faced in a real way. If we are to be A society, the SAME society, A people, then we must be a people together and we must face the horrors of our past together, make amends, grant forgiveness, and then... the sky's the limit, man.

This was the greatest fucking country on Earth and it has it within its soul to be so again.

[–]Willow-girlNot much to start with and worse for the wear1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Barak Obama's. Dems are a bunch of hypocritical asses who were literally responsible for slavery (look it up, no Republicans did)

This is a pretty un-nuanced view of history - and again, man, my objective here isn't to point fingers at you. The point isn't to make you feel guilty or bad about something that happened in the past - the point is to not run from what happened in the past and pretend it doesn't have effects today. It does. There are families out there, just like yours and just like mine, whose great grandparents were owned and traded like cattle. That isn't that far out of living memory, and they didn't enter society with any property or wealth to call their own.

Their labor and indeed parts of their lives, went towards building the wealth of others - which those others were, by and large, allowed to keep.

They were literally freed, and STILL faced unreal discrimination in the South. They received no property, no money, It doesn't really matter what the political parties called themselves 160 years ago - to even imply that the names are all that matters ignores 160 years of political history and shifting social concerns and power centers. And, hell, if you're still gonna go with that - Republicans in Congress back then had intentions of seizing land from the slaveholders and giving it to the slaves. If you're so mad at the meanie-poo-poo-head Democrats, why not finish what they started?

...and since then are overcompensating by infantilizing and anesthetizing black communities with huge sums of free money until the family structure breaks down because who needs guys around if Uncle Sam is your daddy?

Again, though, the question was... what's your solution?

The thing everybody respects is when a man is hard working and takes care of his own.

I agree, but sometimes the man needs help, fam. Especially if he's born into a defeated people who's land was taken and whose purpose and culture is all but destroyed, or if he's born into a people who have endured unending struggle for over a century and a half.

[–]red-tea-rex0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Many of my European ancestors were enslaved by Muslims sending abduction mobs from ships. The coastal poaching got so bad Europeans were fleeing coastal villages.

I don't live in Europe, though, or in the Middle-East.

I live in America. I believe in America. I believe America has been a moral force in the world, and I expect better of it, still, because the country that reignited the spark of freedom in the world, that brought democracy back from the pages of history, defeated Hitler, and landed human beings on the moon, is capable of doing more good for this world.

America is not perfect, and perhaps it will never be. But if it isn't American as fuck to want to be better, then I don't know what is.

My Irish immigrant ancestors were considered "Ethnic" whites and treated worse than dogs when they arrived in New England.

Man, dogs don't get jobs. Dogs can't own property.

You know who actually couldn't fucking do that? Black slaves in the South. I don't want to downplay the issue but I guess there's no way around it for me: Your Irish immigrant ancestors chose to come here in search of a better life and generally found one. Your Black friend's ancestors were packed on a ship like literally fucking cattle, against their will, in order to be bought and sold as property so that they could spend their lives and their children's lives enriching someone else.

That there was suffering among your ancestors isn't in dispute, but their suffering at least contained the component of agency in it, that they chose to embark on this journey. The ancestors of African Americans did not have that spark of freedom as part of their journey here. Immigrants from other countries absolutely faced discrimination when they got here, but that pales in comparison to the horrors endemic to the institution of chattel slavery, dude. I mean it isn't even close.

The solution IS self sufficiency and equal opportunity.

I agree.

But right now, there isn't equal opportunity. You're kidding yourself if there is. You aren't putting yourself in their shoes.

[–]red-tea-rex1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You discount my example of enslaved whites in history just because it wasn't in America. You can't pick and choose your stance on what slavery is your responsibility, otherwise the argument that "it wasn't ME or my ancestors who enslaved blacks therefore it's not my responsibility to provide reparations" becomes valid, since it is equivalent to you saying "it wasn't America who enslaved whites, therefore it's not my responsibility to do the same for them." Your own white/American guilt argument is just based on you wanting more stuff, and the giving of the free stuff is literally the problem. All a government can do is take from someone (tax/freedom) and give to someone else (payments/advantages). That's morally wrong to begin with no matter how you justify it to yourself. It's theft in one direction and discrimination in the other. So your solution to institutionalized racism is institutionalized racism.

One thing you're right about. There's preferential treatment for blacks for hiring, college acceptance, small business loans, and government contracts. That's not Equal opportunity. So let's go ahead and level that out and go back to a merit based system. Then equality in opportunity that you claim is missing will be restored.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You discount my example of enslaved whites in history just because it wasn't in America.

...yeah, like... I don't see what's so hard about that. I can't vote in other countries, fam, and I wouldn't want to. I am culturally wedded to the United States, and I believe in our way of life and our values, and I want my country to do better and to be better. I think comparing this, the greatest country the world had ever seen, to some backwash theocracy trying to bring back the Middle Ages is a shit cop-out.

We don't compare ourselves to that. We land cars on Mars with sky cranes. The 12 human beings who walked on the moon were fucking Americans. Americans build a war machine the likes of which the world had never seen to stop fascism and, even though we didn't really like communism, we offered to help the Soviets rebuild following our camaraderie during the war.

That's the America I know and love, and that's the soul of America I want to see again. The Saudi Arabia sucks dick at basic human rights isn't a bar I'm interested in comparing my country to - we're better than that.

You can't pick and choose your stance on what slavery is your responsibility...

...yes you can, I guaran-fucking-tee I had nothing to do with the slavery of the Middle East, and I didn't personally benefit from it. The slavery here, though? More ambiguous - I still had nothing to do with it, but my ancestors might've, which ties me to my countrymen in a way I'd prefer not, and it obligates me to be aware of that injustice and act to remedy it.

I'm not insensitive to the slavery and suffering elsewhere, but... I'm only human, man. I can't stop all the evil in the world. But I can try and stop the evil where I am in the world.

otherwise the argument that "it wasn't ME or my ancestors who enslaved blacks therefore it's not my responsibility to provide reparations" becomes valid, since it is equivalent to you saying "it wasn't America who enslaved whites, therefore it's not my responsibility to do the same for them."

It wasn't me. But it might've been my ancestors and even if it wasn't, I certainly did benefit from the oppression and injustice perpetrated against other men, women, and children. Generations of human lives, bought, traded, sold, and used like cattle in my country. I am more responsible for the slavery that occurred here than the slavery that occurred there, and moreover I have some power to do something about the historical legacy of the injustices perpetrated here, where I am powerless over there.

I care about my society, my country, and my countrymen and thus, I have a duty to them - especially given the suffering that they already endured on my behalf, whether I asked it or not. Also, let's be real here fam: This argument (while admittedly clever and almost logically sound!) is... just a way for you to sweep aside any culpability.

Your own white/American guilt argument is just based on you wanting more stuff...

You're making an assumption. I actually asked you what you'd do, I didn't demand anything and as I said earlier - you're talking to a libertarian who has on more than one occasion been happy to grant that people to my right have good, sound arguments concerning incentives, economics, and the role of government.

It'd be nice if you didn't ascribe beliefs and ulterior motives to me. I'm not interested in free stuff so much as I'm interested in mending this wounded society, and finding purpose in nationhood again. I don't think we do that without facing some hard conversations.

All a government can do is take from someone (tax/freedom) and give to someone else (payments/advantages). That's morally wrong to begin with no matter how you justify it to yourself. It's theft in one direction and discrimination in the other. So your solution to institutionalized racism is institutionalized racism.

Do you advocate no taxes whatsoever? Because on that front I ideally agree with you, but that what is ideal and what is practical are entirely at odds. On this, I think the left is quite a bit more practical than the right. So, here, it kind of just sounds like you're in the "do nothing, they should stop bitching" camp.

And I'm afraid I'm just not convinced by that.

There's preferential treatment for blacks for hiring, college acceptance, small business loans, and government contracts. That's not Equal opportunity.

I hope you change your mind, man. I think you'd see things differently if your ancestors had been denied their freedom for generations. There are material changes we can and should make less in an effort to "buy" equality or equality of opportunity, but more to socially face the reality of our history, and create a bond of brotherhood out of the rift that currently exists between our two races, man.

Anyways. I don't think I'm going to change your mind, so you do you.

[–]red-tea-rex1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are obviously very intelligent, and your arguments are also well thought out. But I can't help suspecting you aren't actually libertarian in your premises at least. You use identical virtue signalling and class guilt strategies as the american left, the soviets, the kmer rouge before them, and South African government presently. You asked for a solution and my solution literally is cut that shit out. Because there's no bridging certain divides in cultural and political belief, it's best not to assert your moral framework on anyone else via weaponization of the cold brutal merciless government, beyond I'll leave you alone and keep my hands off your stuff if you do likewise. There is no shortage of compassion on my end, trust me. Nor shortage of experience growing up in a rough, poor, racially mixed neighborhood with underfunded schools and frequent violence. That's why I engaged the dude dropping racist epithets up this sub. We're all God's people my friend, and all deserve human dignity and the right to our own bodies without exception.

[–]the_calibre_cat2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But I can't help suspecting you aren't actually libertarian in your premises at least. You use identical virtue signalling and class guilt strategies as the american left, the soviets, the kmer rouge before them, and South African government presently.

I'm a left-leaning libertarian, which you may find to be hypocritical or mutually exclusive, but I don't. I think the socialists make a sound ethical argument, and I want to do right by my fellow man - black, white, and in-between. Of course, I came from libertarianism - the central part of which I largely object to is capitalism. I think the libertarians STILL make sound arguments - concerning the effectiveness of competitive and free markets (I abhor central planning) and the ethical premise of human freedom.

But I've been on a bit of a quest for purpose lately, and in my own search, I've come to understand that quest in others. As a white guy, I don't... have a struggle. My parents loved me, and are still married. I was never want for food as a child and, while we certainly weren't RICH rich, I would be remiss to say that we "struggled" ever. We didn't. And I've since met people who didn't have the opportunities I had growing up.

I remember meeting people who's parents beat them in fits of alcoholism, or just left entirely. People who didn't have a home, in some cases even, as children. My ex-girlfriend was raped at a very young age by her cousin, and confessed to me some profoundly deep things and even showed her own compassion towards him. I've seen and felt some shit, and I've seen some truly diamond human beings come from the seemingly darkest of places.

But I didn't experience any of that, so my search for purpose largely continues. And it occurs to me that, I begin to think that this is a common thread among... white males in particular. We're the bad guy. Nobody feels sorry for us. We have our struggles, our insecurities, our failures in life and in character just the same as everyone else, but boy are you supposed to shut up about it, especially now, because you're just this foot soldier of the patriarchy and how dare you complain about anything ever.

And that sucks, man. And what am I supposed to do, create a "White Dudes Safe Space?" That would go over like a lead balloon, beyond the name being pussy as fuck. But we DO kind of have our own, unique experience that... we should have a space to talk about it, safely, and decide where we go from there. And I think we are a people who are sort of ON the precipice of some racial consciousness here, and that could go really really badly, or it could be something really, really human and beautiful. And so I'm gonna shoot for that.

I don't care what my ancestors did. But I do care about the suffering of my contemporary humankind. I should do SOMETHING about that. I should be willing to suffer OVER that. The best things in life are hard to get, they aren't easy.

Because there's no bridging certain divides in cultural and political belief, it's best not to assert your moral framework on anyone else via weaponization of the cold brutal merciless government, beyond I'll leave you alone and keep my hands off your stuff if you do likewise.

Well, I actually agree with this, but I don't know if we agree on what this means.

There is no shortage of compassion on my end, trust me. Nor shortage of experience growing up in a rough, poor, racially mixed neighborhood with underfunded schools and frequent violence. That's why I engaged the dude dropping racist epithets up this sub. We're all God's people my friend, and all deserve human dignity and the right to our own bodies without exception.

See, and it's shit like this that I'm convinced that some kind of compromise can be realized, man. Like that's some real vulnerability and experience right there.

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I personally don’t find anyone calling another person “nigger” or other slur socially acceptable. I don’t go around calling white people “crackers, honkies” or Asians “chinks, nooks” or Hispanic/Latino people “wetbacks”. They all similarly have a negative, derogatory meaning aimed to verbally attack someone based on their ethnicity. Childish immature friends might “neg” each other with this banter, because there’s an implicit understanding between the two of meaning no real harm.

Pulling the same kind of shit to a stranger that you don’t share this kind of pre-established relationship with, or even using this kind of banter past adulthood, is very inappropriate. Having lived around and interacted with actual people of color, no grown ass person does this.

I can certainly live with not having the “right” to use slurs. I don’t understand why people like you would be so offended for not having it?

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Well, I am curious becasue there are so many other men to choose from, Indian, Arab, Asian, Latino, but there is a curious fascination with black men specifically from white women. Is it all just sexual, color contrast, taboo, beautiful biracial children, fertility or just power?

I don't have a problem with interracial relationships. I think all people are beautiful. White men have changed how they present their sexuality. Growing up, I thought Bruce Willis and Clint Eastwood were confident white men. Lately, I don't see many really strong white men who are physically attractive without being a pretty boy (ala Tom Brady or Chris Hemsworth). They are attractive but not sexy. Should white men work harder to redefine themselves without degrading black men? It makes white men look callous and inferior. I'd rahter a confident Jason Statham who is not racist, but comfortable in his identity, then an insecure white guy who is terrified a big black dick might take his girl.

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Because black men are the only ones having children out of wedlock, love stating statistics until:

70% of Out of Wedlock births in the black community only covers black women.

Almost 40% of black men actually have children out of wedlock

Couples who chose lifelong cohabitation over marriages.

Biracial kids mixed with black are immediately labeled black as default.

This is generally the same argument from white men who brag about being the most desired men in America yet spend all day crying about women not choosing them. But hey, what do I know, I’m a childless black man who would rather work on myself to get the best woman for me than some sorry ass dude who is unproductive for himself and fantasize about turning down women who “magically came back” but were never there in the first place...

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When she's finally ready to settle down

Comments

EXACTLY!

Title	When she's finally ready to settle down
Author	RamboHoodie420
Upvotes	99
Comments	213
Date	May 11, 2020 12:44 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ghde9m/when_shes_finally_ready_to_settle_down/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/when-shes-finally-ready-to-settle-down.662537 https://theredarchive.com/post/662537