Thoughts on Sigma males?

Jack_BE · 2015-02-15T19:48:44+00:00

in MBTI terms, you kind of just described an INTJ

StingrayVC · 2015-02-15T16:48:30+00:00

flat-white · 2015-02-16T05:39:54+00:00

Based on these descriptors, my SO is a sigma, and here's my two cents from knowing him: where alphas are like the high school football player archetype, sigmas are like the mysterious bad boy who no one can quite pin down (stupid example, but like Patrick from 10 Things I Hate About You). Alphas gain strength by drawing people into their frame: that's why they end up as celebrities, CEOs, playboys, that kind of thing with lots of people surrounding/under them. A sigma's strength of frame remains the same whether people are in it or not, because he is so self-reliant; this shows in behaviours like not playing the social games, tending to observe people rather than engage them, and comfortably taking leadership but preferring not to.

IMO, this makes a sigma's frame/the sigma himself much more compelling and attractive. There's some innate dread - I know that my man really, actually doesn't need me for anything, so I work hard to be a valuable and desirable partner to him. If you agree with the sigma's values and goals (as I do), then an LTR is the best thing in the world - you become a better person for/with him, you live by his practically unshakable frame, and partner with him in achieving things that you couldn't have done on your own. In my experience, being in a relationship with a sigma requires wholly embracing his frame upfront, but once done, it's become a fierce "us two against the world" mentality that I haven't seen in other (even alpha-type) couples.

I could be off base as I'm pretty new to RP and especially to the social theory part, but the sigma descriptor fits my SO and this is what I've observed. Interested to see where the conversation goes, thanks so much for posting!

TheLadyPainter · 2015-02-26T01:32:55+00:00

I've dated two of these types, as I said in another comment. I never categorized them as "sigma" because before this thread I didn't even know it was a category. But they fit the descriptions here to a T.

The first was my first serious boyfriend. We were engaged for a time when I was in high school. He was the type who was too smart for his own good. Extremely masculine, fit, handsome, and charming. However, he was a sort of "natural" at game theory and able to read women (well, people in general) too easily. He was always a loner and unwilling to put up with people most of the time.

I came in to his life when I was very young (12 or 13) and he was 18. We were good friends for six years before we started dating. I'm sure he liked me because I "didn't play games" with him. I'm not sure if I did or not. I just knew I loved being around him and he made me happy/inspired me. I believe it was refreshing for him to be around a girl with motivation so seemingly pure. Of course, getting older, I developed a massive crush on him, and one day, one thing led to another.

Our friendship-turned-relationship was one of artistic musing and deep trust. We knew everything about each other. He knew everything from my deep desire to become a mother to my clinical depression. I knew everything from his deep rage to the way he would pray/talk to his dead mother in times of desperation. We were each other's creative centers. He was a writer/musician, and I study painting/drawing/dabble in writing. We'd inspire each other, collaborate, brainstorm, build up creative anxieties. He was completely intoxicating.

That was his relationship with me. I also saw how he interacted with others. Most of my friends, he disliked/wouldn't associate with. There were a couple times where I brought him to parties, and unable to escape via car, he would walk 10+ miles back to his place for no other reason than "I just wanted to leave, so I left." He never insisted that I get rid of my friends, but he would refuse to see me and my friends at the same time. He had 3-4 close friends (I was one of them) and his family, and that was the extent of his social interaction. And it was completely out of choice. He was magnetic - people would just come up to him randomly out in public and try to strike up conversation. Women asked for his number all the time. He just literally didn't give a damn.

As for the "heavy trauma" - he told me that in elementary school, he was physically/sexually abused by his stepfather. I'm not going to comment on how it affected him, because he never talked about it except in passing. I can say that it didn't affect him sexually, he seemed very normal in bed. His family was also surrounded by tragedy. His mother died shortly after I met him, his brother was in and out of prison. There was a lot of good in his family, too, but a hell of a lot of bad.

Our breakup left me very confused/distraught. As I said, we were engaged. He proposed to me with the 4ct eternity band that his mother left him when she died. We were talking about how our future was going to play out (logistically). We were going to move in together. He "turned off" very suddenly. Looking back, I know it was because a lot of my insecurities were coming out as we got more and more serious, and I was becoming very stressed out about him meeting all my family.

We were also temporarily long-distance at the time, and there was a female friend of his that he got very close to. They started dating shortly after he left me. He contacted me about a year after we broke up, and told me that he an this girl were poly, and asked if I'd come back to them. I declined because fuck that. But I'm honestly glad he reached out, because when he did, I wasn't over him. But the idea of him becoming something so different from the person I knew... that person I was with, he wasn't there any more. It's hard to explain. But it definitely helped me "close the door," so to speak.

I don't talk about him in detail like this often, because I realize it sounds like I'm still in love with him. I'm not. We haven't talked in 3-4 years. I just remember what it was like to be with him. He tickled both the woman and the creative in me. It's a potent combination.

The second time I dated a sigma was last year. He was like my first ex in a lot of ways, though much older, and much more guarded. He never opened up fully to me, and I never opened up fully to him. My relationship with this one was shorter and fizzled down before it truly "got started" - we went on a few dates, never made it to the bedroom. Mostly because we weren't what the other was looking for. I was looking for commitment and someone who would eventually want to start a family, and he was looking for someone who would would facilitate his lifestyle (gallery contacts/money). Basically, someone who would be useful to date, instead of the other way around.

He is a painter as well, and a lot of our ideas resonate. I think he was another sigma for many reasons. One, he comes from money, and never had a reason to peruse his own commercial success. Instead, he studies constantly, reads, writes, and is extremely experimental in his work. He travels, has 1-2 close friends, and teaches once in a while, lives at his own pace. We met because I took one of his classes.

Sorry, there's not really a TL;DR for all that. I hope my experiences are interesting to whoever reads it.

Edit: Holy crap that's long.

RPSigmaStigma · 2015-02-15T19:34:37+00:00

It's been nice to see more discussion about sigmas on the TRP-related subs recently. It does sometimes seem like there are segments of this community that either deny the existence of sigmas, or tend to be a bit reactionary to the concept.

Anyway, as a natural sigma, for the women who are curious about us, let me give you a brief overview of what sigmas look for in women, and what kind of women tend to seek sigmas.

Firstly, there are certain types of women that I've found that naturally seek out sigmas. I'll start with an example. A long-time female friend of mine who first introduced me to TRP is a self-avowed sigma hunter. She left her gamma BF for her current sigma BF. She's a mid-30s post-neo-hippie (as in, she used to be a neo-hippie, but has "grown up" and rejected a lot of the liberal politics of most neo-hippies). She is highly intelligent (upper 130s IQ), very independent, crafty, outdoorsy, etc. She is very self-aware and rational (especially being RP/game-aware) and very inquisitive. She has a small group of close friends, and outside of that, as far as she's concerned, the rest of the world can burn to the ground (her words). Basically, she's a "sigma female".

She has a lot of the traits sigma males look for. Sigmas are easily bored with shallow, pretentious, pop-culture obsessed, gossipy, game-playing women. Sigmas, being natural loners, have a very low tolerance for bullshit and drama. A woman who finds herself dating a sigma will quickly learn that her usual head-games and pussy-power simply don't work on him. My friend has confessed to me that since dating her sigma BF she's had numerous moments of shock and confusion when he wouldn't bend to her just because she has a pussy. Of course, she also admits how much this turns her on.

The downsides of dating a sigma is that they do tend to prefer to have a lot of space and alone time. I would caution any woman who needs a lot of affection and closeness against dating sigmas. You'll need a thick skin and healthy dose of self-reliance. But it does have it's rewards. He'll give you those "alpha tingles" when he turns on the charm for you. He'll get shit done, and usually have interesting hobbies and life style. But it does take a certain type to not only attract a sigma, but to keep one interested.

Edit: thinking about this some more, I wanted to add a few points. One is that another upside to sigmas is they are very much prefer to be in LTRs, mostly because chasing tail usually seems like a waste of time from their many hobbies and interests. This also means they'll be less likely to cheat then alphas (although, like alphas, they will be constantly tempted due to the way they naturally attract women, especially with their aloof, devil-may-care attitude towards women).

Another point is that sigmas are probably more common than "true alphas" (in the expanded alpha/beta/delta heirarchy, as opposed to the high betas most people call "alpha" around here in the simplified alpha/beta hierarchy). I personally believe most people will rarely encounter a true alpha in their day-to-day lives, in the same way most people will rarely encounter a true 10/10 woman, being as all the true 10/10s are supermodels and movie stars. Most of the men you'll meet who you think are alphas are usually high betas or sigmas.

Whew, that was a longer rant than I expect. Maybe I shouldn't have had that third cup of coffee.

Edits: various typos, etc.

stolidfact · 2015-02-15T17:31:06+00:00

IMO, one of the distinctions between the two is the source of validation. Let's be real, we are social animals and enjoy validation through our connections. Those who curate group connections and followers deriving some power continuously by influencing others are more on the alpha continuum. Those who are more disdainful of connections because they either have better things to do, or perhaps never got into the pattern of exercising their influence (eg due to heavy trauma in life) are more on the sigma continuum.

In my experience, the more sigma types are odd or a little eccentric. They value their own inner reality and its power over the power that is achieved by exercising it socially. But it can be situational.

KyfhoMyoba · 2015-02-18T01:47:24+00:00

In political terms, the Sigma is libertarian: they neither dominate nor are dominated. I seem to recall a study on mice showing that about 3% or so fall into this category. It also seems that about 3% of Americans are in this category as well. Coincidence? I think not.

In terms of sexual strategy, you have a man that seems to be more egalitarian than most - what the feminists SAY they want - but what happens in the bedroom? Does he dominate his woman? I am a libertarian, and fit the MBTI profiles. I suppose I fit the definition of Sigma. My plates all enjoy the way that I dominate them sexually. Do I enjoy it? Meh. I do it because they like it. A lot/most times it feels like work. I do it anyway, as I like the results. I don't really like telling people what to do, but every job I've ever had, I was promoted into management, I guess because I always KNOW what to do. I HATE being told what to do. I now work for myself with no employees - sole proprietor (heaven!).

SgtBrutalisk · 2015-02-27T13:11:30+00:00

I recognized myself in the entire thing. Especially the part with having alpha potential and trauma holding me back. I spent years of my life in monk mode, trying to reach a higher understanding of life. Just like in zen stories, I've made a full circle and returned to the old position with new understanding of life. Now I am 30 and have to pretty much start all over again, but that doesn't bother me all that much. In fact, it's quite thrilling. Life is truly wondrous, no matter your social status. If I had a day left to live, I wouldn't mind.

Never_relax · 2015-02-16T03:48:11+00:00

[permanently deleted]

sheago · 2015-02-15T22:45:43+00:00

These are the dudes that can disappear into a forest with an axe and pocket knife, and come out years later the same as they ever were. Very rare. They can live in isolation without deteriorating mentally,physically, or socially, usually improving instead. No I never met a guy like that personally.

mensafloyd · 2015-02-17T22:15:35+00:00

You just described Walter White.

DurnikSmith · 2015-02-20T21:51:33+00:00

I would suggest that, rather than being solely motivated by trauma, they have had an eye-opening experience of sorts. I look at the tales of bards and advisors. Merlin, Mercury, Baloo, Henry Higgins, and any of the trickster gods come to mind. Likewise most of the academics and theologians - the true ones drawn by passion for learning, not merely using the university or church as a playground for power. The sailors who loved the sea, the trappers who would disappear into the hills for years at a time.

They've always been there, and they've always made the hierarchy nervous, as they don't rely upon it for stability. There are few handles which can be leveraged for control so they simply must be bargained with on their own terms.

Scr3bble · 2015-02-27T00:20:53+00:00

Even though i hesitate to post this, educating others with my views on this subject gives me no greater pleasure. How perverted. Doubtfull you can apply such a broad brush towards men and the whole Alpha- Beta - Sigma, but still it does contain a bit of truth but feel free to take the rest with a grain of salt since i couldn't care less.

As such i would consider myself fitting into the Sigma stereotype. And me + a few other Sigma types i know tend to share the same attributes and views.

Self confident
Lack of ego
Guarded/private
Loyal
Manipulative
Flexible
Social convention means dick to us

As such i will highlight these points further. Confidence: Sigma males tend to be quite confident and sometimes suffer from the "special snowflake" syndrome. But our confidence comes from own selfview, reaching goals we set ourself if we do so and possibly our upbringing.

Lack of Ego: I(we) know that we have our strong and weakpoints and we tend to quite honest about that. We also dont see a need to rub it in since it wont increase our own confidence and/or value. And we prefer to keep a status quo in social dynamics. Dont try to fix anything that isn't broken type of thing.

Guarded/Private: We dont feel the need to harp upon our past or current emotions/problems, if something needs to be fixed we just do it without bringing in "outside" help. Introverted types tend to be very terratorial when it comes to their time and living space and if poked can react very harsh. Extroverted types tend to be also very guarded when it comes to their own experiences but they tend to be more group orientated when it comes to social events.

Loyal: Since we are quite confident and able to stand our own ground meeting new people/women isn't a issue but we are quite selective. Since we dont feel the need to prove ourself we stay loyal to our friends and romantic interests but our threshold for fuckups is quite low. As such we hardly give any second chances. Also due to our reserved nature its quite hard to get a commitment out of us.

Manipulative: When it comes to seduction we prefer to use tactics like insinuation/confusion/illusion. In other words it tends to be more long game orientated and instead of a quick ONS we prefer that the target becomes infatuated with us. Also during boardgames/games/social stuff we prefer to use indirect game to suit our needs. (Think of the person during monopoly that somehow magicly tends to win despite alphas clamouring against trades with that person)

Flexible: We understand every person responds differently and as such we tend to use different tactics depending on the person we are dealing with. We dislike ruffling feathers in a bold way and if something is bothering us we tend to adapt and use different methods to turn situations toward our hands. Flexability and manipulation tends to walk hand in hand.

Social convention: We do what we do when it pleases us, not you. If anything this can be our greatest downfall. Social convention and doing the right thing hardly applies to us, which can make us quite unreliable. Also we tend to be able to mix in with different social classes but never truely fit in.

I think these are the main points of a "Sigma male" from my own experience. In a nutshell they need a hefty investment of time to get to know but it tends to be worth it. Feel free to (dis)agree and im happy to highlight/clarify any points i made!

Quick edit: English isn't my native language so feel free to correct me on grammar mistakes/crooked sentences/punctuation. =)

Anenome5 · 2015-02-15T20:53:22+00:00

After years of trying to figure it out, I realized I'm one of these people. Never heard the term 'sigma male' but the description fits me strongly, autodidactic, neither leader nor follower necessarily, etc.

I tend to be strongly befriended by alpha males which aren't threatened by me for some reason. As if they recognize I'm not someone they can cow by social pressure alone, like I'm on their level or something.

Those who are threatened by me can't stand me.

I have also read that sigma males are males that would have otherwise become an alpha male, but they experienced some kind of heavy trauma in their lives and this knocked them heavily off track.

No trauma here, I just didn't play the social dominance games other kids did. I thought picking on others was mean, but neither was I picked on. I laughed off insults and was too strong to bully, never had self-confidence issues. Most people just left me alone.

I don't tend to date a lot. I'm perfectly happy being single generally. When I do date it's a bit all or nothing, and I won't tolerate being in a relationship that doesn't feel right. I'm not in them for sex, but for an actual relationship, and thus I really only date women I'm impressed by as human beings as well as attracted to. That's rare to find.

myopinionabtevrythng · 2015-02-16T00:53:11+00:00

In love with one and he is intj

Kogituu · 2022-11-25T03:12:49+00:00

"Sigma/Alpha" Males surround themselves in toxic environments and unhealthy coping mechanisms so they disrespect minorities to feel better about themselves. Anytime you try to reason with them, they will always have the same comeback or state a "fact" that doesn't correlate with their point at all. In reality, they're just fragile men who have no empathy and idolize Patrick Bateman who was written by a gay/bisexual man💀

PowerVitamin · 2015-02-15T21:36:22+00:00

So a sigma, is a male with an above alpha skillset, but has some sort of righteous agenda which causes him to ignore pursuits in the present social hierarchy?

I believe you are either describing highly actualized alphas (see maslow's hierarchy), or alphas that disprove of the current pack's direction. Therefore, they are really seeking power in the overall sense, rather than current social power. These are the 2 kinds of males I've seen that could fit your definition of sigma.

It's funny because I am naturally attracted to these types and frequently bring them into business partnerships, and cast my vote for them in elections (the few times they do pursue power).

However, I wasn't aware that women acknowledged or pursued these beyond alpha qualities in a man.

scallopkid · 2015-02-17T08:19:32+00:00

This just reads like it was written by a delta male who wants to be the cool guy with all the girls but "doesn't want to be an alpha" because "those guys are jerks" (aka that's the excuse he's using because it's too hard to actually make himself into an alpha) and then of course everyone comes in and says they are one or they are dating one or whatever. You are all just in denial about being completely average and unremarkable people.

Octavia9 · 2015-02-16T05:09:44+00:00

This pretty perfectly describes my husband. I think I understand him a little better now.

ifitaint · 2015-02-17T15:10:09+00:00

First time I read anything about sigma males. Couldn't help but to think that it sounded like a depressed type of guy to me and then this

I have also read that sigma males are males that would have otherwise become an alpha male, but they experienced some kind of heavy trauma in their lives and this knocked them heavily off track.

Suspicions confirmed.

This actually describes my high school sweetheart, my first love. Seeing this almost 7 years after the demise of our relationship really confirms that it was destined to end when I think of the type of guy I want now.

He was the nice guy I blew it with. But nice by default, not particularly because of kindness. Not challenging to my ideas, good guy, smart yet gave the feeling that he just wasn't motivated.

This type of guy is very hard to figure out. You spend a lot of time planning for them and then feel bad for planning it because you feel you are slipping into a "control freak" but yet if you didn't plan it would be like "ok, but what are we doing? Nothing."

I carried a lot of guilt for years over our relationship ending. But as I have thought about it the only thing I should feel bad about is how I ended it.

I didn't blow it all. I would still be miserable in the relationship if I had stayed with him and probably extremely masculine because the severe lack of him showing "alpha" traits.

Wow. Thanks for the conversation.

TheLadyPainter · 2015-02-20T02:46:09+00:00

I dated two of these types before. They were both geniuses, but had a lot of issues. I have decided that the tortured genius is not the type for me. I could elaborate on both, but that's really the gist of it...

brosaparkss · 2015-02-20T07:13:02+00:00

I've spent months reading trp and this is the first I've heard of this type. I'm very comfortable leading but I also excel as a team player. I had all my perspectives changed when I was in a high speed accident at 19. I survived unscathed but I thought I was a gonner. Being unconcerned about my peers and typical career goals I dropped out at 21 and focused on my volleyball career. This turned into a coaching position for the game I love. I get to lead and apply my ideas to my players but at the end of the day it is on them and I am only a part of the team. It's nice to know that another type of male exists and that I don't have to fall into top dog or a doormat

rednukleus · 2015-02-16T05:03:03+00:00

Wow this is definitely me. I never was honest with myself about it before. I shy away from asserting myself as the top dog, yet I have enough natural gravitas to coast along without fighting for respect. People tend to sense a serene calm or quiet strength, it seems, and tend to give me a certain level of respect just like that.

I come from multiple long lines of ultra manly alphas but my parents went through an extremely messy divorce when I was a toddler and the chaos continued throughout my childhood. My mom really did her best to thwart any machismo in me.

gentleViking · 2015-02-16T02:02:07+00:00

I fall into this category. I'm not sure if Trauma would have anything to do with it. I never was traumatized. I'm just pretty introverted and even though I can and have been given leadership opportunities in the past I've opted to choose a more lonerish path so that I can work on music (career/passion) and other hobbies. Being too involved in social settings and the perceived obligations of them tends to rob me of the control I need over my environment in order to achieve my personal goals. I guess one way to put it, is I'm Alpha in my domain of "one." I could be alpha in charge of others but I choose not to because it's not where I want to put my energy.

mackthetemp · 2015-02-16T16:27:01+00:00

So OP, where did you read about this?

fugued · 2015-02-16T20:04:07+00:00

Thanks OP, you have defined me. I never felt right in the Alpha or Beta category, but most parts of Sigma work well for me.

I do want to be a leader, but in the sense of getting things done. As a manager I often say that I "lead from behind" so that my team gets satisfaction and credit for what we've accomplished. No worries about me getting accolades. I just feel better when other people's lives improve by knowing or working with me.

I think I was much more Alpha as a youth, but lost my drive with my first LTR that is currently ending after 20+ years. When I decided to leave a few years ago, I had a strong need to improve every aspect of my life and self. So happy now, comfortable, confident, successful.

sigmayogi · 2015-02-18T16:07:09+00:00

Zuckerberg, Gates come to mind.

SoldierGenerale · 2015-02-24T02:02:19+00:00

When looking at evolutionary biology we all know about the alfa-male of the group. The one silverback gorilla that would have sex with all the females and be the leader. We also know about the beta-males that would have sex with the females when the alfa-male wasn't looking.

The only problem with this situation is that these groups are too small to sustain genetic diversity. So how did evolution come up with an answer to this?

Easy - Sigma-males. Males that have alfa characteristics that wander around having sex with girls from other groups thus preventing the lack of genetic variation.

One of my best friends is a sigma. The guy is compliant and sweet, never wanting to disturb the vibe just to prove he's alfa. Thinking all that alfa-shit is lame and only uses it when he needs to.

When it comes down to it though he can be alfa as fuck. I've seen the dude tap a girl on her shoulder while she was walking past him in a bar and when she didn't stop to talk to him he pulled her back by the hair and made-out with her. The guy goes around banging girls like mario goes around smashing blocks.

muckraker12 · 2015-03-27T08:00:53+00:00

A moment of revelation.

Str_ · 2015-02-15T16:55:15+00:00

I'm sigma and definitely extroverted. Also haven't experienced any significant trauma.

I just don't really see the point in expending all of that time and effort into having a "pack" when I could be doing other shit

tassadarbot · 2015-02-15T19:04:25+00:00

according to this i am also a natural sigma, lots of trauma, what would you like to know about?

Jade196 · 2015-02-16T04:46:50+00:00

My fiance is a sigma male. As a child, he went to a different elementary school every year. Being intelligent, good looking, and charming, he befriended all of his new classmates year after year.

He came to see them as easy, shallow, worthless creatures who were easily manipulated by the facade he could put on. He stopped giving a fuck at a pretty early age.

One of his favorite stories include how he wanted his own table at lunch. So, he sat with the mentally handicapped kids and managed to manipulate them into fighting each other. After that, they had to eat lunch supervised away from the others, and the table was his.

Title	Thoughts on Sigma males?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	59
Comments	192
Date	February 15, 2015 4:31 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/2vzbeo/thoughts_on_sigma_males/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/thoughts-on-sigma-males.2212 https://theredarchive.com/post/2212

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