Where is the line between surrendering/STFU and weaponised incompetence?

CountTheBees · 2022-11-22T21:58:44+00:00

It's easier to see if you look at it from the man's point of view. What would he rather you do? And the answer to that will depend on the man.

Most men would never dream of saying - "Honey you undersalted the chicken". They'd silently reach for the salt, or eat it the way it is. Men don't see it as passive aggression, they see it as according respect. It's more important for them to accord you respect than to let you know your chicken is poorly salted. And if you say, "Oh I forgot to put salt on the chicken" most men still won't say a word, and some still might not reach for the salt even after you say that, because it would be their admission of your fault. Despite the fact that it's glaringly obvious and everyone has taste buds, they still won't do it because it's disrespectful. And if they act that way to you, then you know you should return the favour when you can.

I think the missed exit example is an attempt to live up to this notion of respect. Also history matters. If you've never nagged your husband or criticised him, you can totally speak up about a missed exit and it will be a chill time and everyone will still feel good. But if you always nagged and now you've realised it was causing problems, you'd stay silent because the cost of fuel + waste of time is still less than the emotional blowback of the correction, because it will remind him of all the times you did it needlessly and were disrespectful. I think that's where Laura Doyle was coming from - the perspective of a wife who knows she's done the wrong thing in the past and is trying to make it up. It's totally different for a couple that doesn't have that negative connotation to begin with.

Jenneapolis · 2022-11-22T20:12:53+00:00

I will say Laura’s books and podcasts have helped me become a better partner. I will also say I’ve used some of her tactics and it’s annoyed my very masculine boyfriend. “Whatever you think” specifically annoys him and generally results in an eye roll and a follow up comment urging me for my opinion on whatever he just asked.

What I have found for me is it comes down to: 1) what is the specific topic (i.e. how sensitive is it), 2) who “owns” it, and 3) is he asking for input. So, for example, if there’s something that he is responsible to manage, say driving, I back off. He hasn’t asked for my input and while I maybe know a quicker way, I’ll STFU unless we are in danger or something extreme. However he will ask me frequently for advice about his career. It is part of my day job to give career advice and he is proactively asking me so I give my opinion in a helpful coaching way, not a demanding one, and help ask him questions for him to find a solution. In this scenario shutting up or saying whatever you think is incredibly frustrating to him. He wants me to be competent and smart.

ProfessorFartiology · 2022-11-22T20:03:41+00:00

I've never heard of this person so I can only speak on my understanding of RPW

We are to be partners, to make our husbands life easier and smoother so that he may do the same for us. Being helpful is not a criticism and if it is taken that way, examine the tone used or the emotional stability of your partner.

I believe weaponized incompetence is an awful thing for either sex to do to their partner.

anothergoodbook · 2022-11-22T20:08:16+00:00

I think it’s going to depend on the couple IMO. My husband doesn’t particularly care for my input on his driving and it’s been an issue in the past. So for me - yes I would not say anything to him for the most part. Obviously if I’m the navigator and he’s expecting me to chime in that’s a different story. Id say 99% of the time he knows what he’s doing and missed the exit for a reason so if I speak up it will still come across as nagging.

SunshineSundress · 2022-11-22T20:11:24+00:00

I think this is a perfect example of what u/LivelyLychee was talking about here: Laura Doyle is just ONE reference for you to look at, and although she has a lot of useful and helpful ideas, it doesn’t mean that everything she says has to be your bible.

Personally, I much prefer u/Fleetingwish’s idea of Bring Your Captain Your Problem, Not Your Solution. To her, if you choose to withhold information and issues, you are preventing your Captain from making the best possible decision for the both of you. You can let him know that the exit on the highway is coming up, but ultimately let him make the decision himself. So for example, if you tell him that the exit is coming up in half a mile and he misses it, let him fix that problem himself instead of saying, “Well if you would have listened to me, we wouldn’t have missed it!”

u/girlwithasidecar also disagreed with Laura Doyle in her post Doormat vs. Deference:

Instead, find the best man you can. A man whose vision for the future aligns with your own. A man you respect. If you don’t want to follow his lead then he’s not the right man. If you think his plans are terrible then he’s not the right man. If your life goals are at odds then he’s not the right man. If he asks you to set yourself on fire because he's chilly, then he's not the right man.

Choices should be made that are in the best interest of the family and the relationship. Do not quit your job that you love because he wants to be the sole provider. Quit your job because you both believe it is the best way to raise children. Do not STFU when your husband is about to make a wrong turn because you fear embarrassing him (seriously Laura Doyle, wtf). STFU because mowing the lawn is his responsibility and you trust him to manage his own to-do list.

I find this to make a lot more sense than Doyle’s approach for this topic, but I’m sure there are women who have successfully Laura Doyle’d their failing relationship into a successful one as well. RPW is a toolbox, where some tools might be PERFECT for the problem at hand, and other tools not so much. It’s all up to your discretion which approach appeals most to you.

Teacup000 · 2022-11-22T21:15:36+00:00

So where is the line between STFU and manipulation by pretending to be incompetent?

I think the difference is intent. In one example, you have a husband who desperately wants you to stop micromanaging, you're stressed the heck out, and you take drastic action to fix your marriage. Presumably, weaponized incompetence is designed to be more selfish. Your partner doesn't want to do more but you're twisting their arm purely so you can do less.

However, is this surrendering, or is it just passive aggressive?

It's not passive aggressive is there's never any aggression. It's just passive

sunglasses90 · 2022-11-22T21:39:01+00:00

I totally get what you’re saying and I agree with you that you definitely need to use your own judgement on when and how to apply her suggestions.

I think we as women tend to make everything catastrophic and we stress way more than men about things. I think that’s her point. Submitting to your man, if that’s your goal, is to allow “bad” things to happen sometimes in order to not step over boundaries. My approach is the what’s the worst case scenario here? You spend an extra 20 minutes driving. That’s really not that big of a deal. The water shut off thing is different although I have a feeling there’s more to that story and it wasn’t just her purposely not telling her husband that they had a bill due. I’m sure he knew about it. He just procrastinated and instead of her taking over she let the chips fall where they lay. It’s an approach. It’s definitely a submissive approach.

I think the moral of the story more-so is just pick your battles and save your energy on certain things. Apply that with judgement to your situation.

Vynxe-Vainglory · 2022-11-23T00:09:41+00:00

There's a vast difference between telling him he missed the exit, and complaining/ badgering / shaming him for it, which is what wives often do. I could be wrong, but I think STFU refers to the latter instinct and not giving simple information that any team member should give. As the wife, you're a big fucking part of the team. Don't be a shitty teammate.

Redlimetree · 2022-11-23T06:36:56+00:00

I'm female and I get annoyed when people point out my faults, or they go to point something minor I might do out. But I'm great with indirect reminders.

If I've already made the mistake I'm already kicking myself for doing it. I don't need somebody else to point it out, especially during the moment when I'm trying to fix whatever issue I caused and thinking of ways to prevent doing it again. I do laugh at my mistakes later.

If it's before they THINK I'm about to make a MINOR mistake I also get annoyed. Cause 9 times out of 10 I would have prevented making that mistake. And if it's something really obvious I get annoyed as it comes of as the other person thinks I'm too stupid to figure it out for myself. An universal example everybody here has probably experienced is when you aren't paying attention so go to push a pull door and when it doesn't open the person behind you tells you to pull it. The comment is unnecessary.

I've been implementing indirect reminders. Worded in such a way that it doesn't come off as disrespectful. I don't know how men take to them but I personally like them. For instance if I wasn't sure the driver knew about a highway exit I'd say something like "Thank God the exits coming up I'm tired of this highway" or "This exit always creeps up on me I've almost missed it so many times".

Takiyah7 · 2022-11-22T19:49:37+00:00

This is a really good question. I'm not sure so I'm waiting to read other responses.

youllknowwhenitstime · 2022-11-23T07:03:35+00:00

Weaponized incompetence requires a particular, passive-aggressive motivation - and it always involves leaving something undone which is under the "incompetent" person's purview. That one roommate who does a purposefully shoddy job cleaning every time it's their turn so people just start skipping them in the rotation, for example.

Laura Doyle is suggesting actions from a motivation of radical acceptance, and never abandonment of one's own duties. Is the world going to end if you choose not to give a correct road direction? Can you give up control of time like that, and realize you have higher priorities in life than being on time? Is road navigation really your job in the relationship? Or even... Is the world going to end if you go a day without water? Probably not, people having roots growing through their pipes or whatever plumbing emergencies all the time, and they make it a day (or through the weekend until the plumber is available) without running water.

But she's not suggesting you do it from a place of vindictiveness. No "That'll teach him" mindset. It's not "manipulating her husband into learning a hard lesson" - she's not interfering with him in any way (manipulation) nor responsible for creating the consequences. If he wants to run the finances without any interference, she's non-judgmentally allowing the situation to flow as it will as he does so. After all, she's probably been in a situation where natural consequences bettered her habits, since pretty much any human has been. Depriving her husband of the life experience he wishes to gain (as evidenced by what would presumably be a negative reaction if she 'helped' him avoid it) would be an act of control.

That said, this is a great example of what I mean when I say a lot of RPW reading material is basically "how to cope with a bluepill husband". An alpha dude is not going to give a crap if you say "that was the exit" or "today is the last day we can pay the water bill". Mr. Beta would get his pride wounded.

But you can't turn beta men into alpha men with external effort/"encouragement". She IS advising the best course of action when you're with that kind of man, and it's distinct and set apart from weaponized incompetence.

cupieheart · 2022-11-23T16:09:23+00:00

Laura Doyle’s advice is largely for micromanaging, type A, anxiously attached women. She’s teaching us that it’s okay if your husband makes a mistake… and it’s not our job to correct him or guide him. He’s a grown man, he can figure things out that are on HIS paper.

Here’s a perspective I haven’t seen in the comments yet: by “helping” your husband, you’re mommying him. And that’s a slippery slope, because no one is attracted to their sons or mothers lol. So in doing so, you’re destroying the intimacy.

I see a lot of advice in traditional femininity circles that the wife must help the husband to make his life easier. I fell into that pre-skills and it really destroyed our sexual attraction. I was cleaning for him, doing his laundry, packing his lunches. And yes, reminding him of things he needs to do. That dynamic made me really turned off and I had no clue why until I started listening to LD.

I’ve sense stopped this and wow… things are so much better. Let’s just say it’s really turned around and the attraction is back. So while missing an exit may seem dire, it’s really not. And TBH, I think “weaponized incompetence” is a psychobabble buzzword. Unless you’re sitting on your rear while your husband pulls all the weight, you don’t need to worry about that.

LeicaRedEye · 2022-11-23T06:23:35+00:00

I hate micromanaging. At work or at home. I like people taking initiative. I will teach/coach and then they are in their own. With a man it's even more risky to micromanage him. If he is a little softer he will soon surrender to you mothering him and telling him what to do. You are his partner, not his mom.

STFU is far more used by men because they understand the value of it. I think it's fair game for everyone to once in a while utilize. Not out of malice, but out of strategy. If you don't let people make mistakes, how are they ever going to learn from these mistakes.

Weaponized incompetence is when someone is actively asking for assistance and you purposely don't pitch in, or you make mistakes or a mess. The purpose is to never ask you again and also to see them struggle and suffer. There is malice involved.

Waxflower8 · 2022-11-23T10:07:46+00:00

The missing the exit part sounds a bit too much in my opinion. I’d just gently bring it up as something that just happened “Oh no our exit” instead of “Hey hey, you missed our exit”.

I’m not giving advice, it’s just my way of letting the man still be in charge of the situation without telling him what to do or signaling that he isn’t capable.

I remember dating someone who’s the general manager of the store they work at. He wanted to give his only manager less hrs so she’ll quit bc he didn’t think she was good at her job. I didn’t tell not to do it, I told him how I felt about it.

NotoriousJez · 2022-11-23T18:34:17+00:00

I think the exit thing is a bit extreme. You and your husband are both trying to get to where you need to be presumably without delay. If saying “babe you missed the exit” is a precursor to destroying your relationship, I think there are bigger issues.

Like missing the exit can be a funny thing that you guys laugh about later but it’s not productive to not say anything because if he doesn’t notice then you guys will continue driving, wasting gas, and possibly be late to wherever you’re going.

The water bill thing I can understand because if it’s you’re mans job to pay that bill and he lives in the house I’m sure he’s gonna see the water isn’t working and he’ll correct it himself. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking “hey did you want me to pay the water bill?” I think any man would appreciate you asking unless he’s one of those men who are very firm on paying for everything.

teammeli · 2022-11-23T02:51:27+00:00

She lost me on that one bc if that scenario ever happened to me, my husband would basically react like most people and say, why the fuck didn’t you tell me ?! Sitting there passively feels just strange to do in that example

AutoModerator · 2022-11-22T19:24:07+00:00

Title: Where is the line between surrendering/STFU and weaponised incompetence?

Full text: This question bugs me a lot when reading Laura Doyle’s work.

An example she gave of STFU is when her husband missed an exit and drove a long distance in the wrong direction, all without her correcting him once. To her, correcting her husband and losing intimacy is less important than driving in the correct direction.

However, is this surrendering, or is it just passive aggressive? If you were two friends road tripping, why on earth would you let this happen?

Another example she gave is when the water got shut off in the house because her husband neglected to pay the bill, something that she could have done but chose not too. Sure, she avoided bossing her husband around, but she essentially forced/manipulated her husband into learning a hard lesson by categorically refusing to do it herself.

Weaponised incompetence describes when you leave something undone or uncared for on purpose as a manipulation tactic to get your partner to do more. This seems like a lot of what Laura preaches. Sometimes Laura’s suggestions comes off like “hold yourself hostage by feigning helplessness and trigger your man’s protective instincts”.

That said, I understand nagging your husband like “hey have you paid the bills? Are you sure you have paid the bills?? Let me check???” is controlling and disrespectful, and can cause a breakdown in your relationship. Maybe even suggesting it once is enough to be rude.

So where is the line between STFU and manipulation by pretending to be incompetent?

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Title	Where is the line between surrendering/STFU and weaponised incompetence?
Author	NotPast3
Upvotes	60
Comments	26
Date	November 22, 2022 7:24 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/z22d52/where_is_the_line_between_surrenderingstfu_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/where-is-the-line-between-surrenderingstfu-and.1140553 https://theredarchive.com/post/1140553

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