Is denial a part of the problem?

PemBayliss · 2015-10-02T16:22:41+00:00

Yes, denial is part of the problem.

Look. No one is saying that women have to fuck men they're not attracted to. No one is saying that men are entitled to sex from anyone. No one is saying that men are justified in committing crimes or that women have to abandon their toxic feminist beliefs.

But it is true -- Society and feminism are responsible for propagating and spreading lies about

-- what women are attracted to

-- what women find sexually attractive

-- what men's roles should be in relationships and in society

-- what makes a successful relationship

among other things.

A lot of men didn't get formed up correctly for a lot of reasons. The wreckage of feminism has caused many men to become deeply, deeply confused about who and what they are, what makes them attractive and unattractive to women sexually, what women want and don't want from them, and what role they are supposed to play in society and in a long term relationship.

Those men are having to either (1) learn it now and get better so they can have some semblance of a normal life; or (2) learn it now so they can face the reality that a sex life is not in the cards for them and they can live their lives accordingly.

Feminists and feminism, and their useful idiots in government, the culture, the church and the media, are to blame for much of this.

EDIT It's coming out that the alleged shooter, Chris Harper Mercer, was 26 years old. His parents were divorced. He lived with his mother. His father was "shocked" and "saddened" by the events and tragedy his son caused. He was targeting Christians. There's no evidence yet that this man was motivated by hate for women, an inability to get sex, an inability to attract sufficiently attractive women, or anything else related to TRP or its tenets, as was so rashly suggested on the other thread. He appears to have been a maladjusted, malcontented antichristian.

The fact that his parents were divorced and he lived with mom tells me a lot -- he never had much of a masculine influence to help him get his shit and his feelings under control. Moms do a lot for their sons. But mothers cannot make men out of boys.

Lite-brite · 2015-10-02T16:25:41+00:00

I do think that's part of the problem. People want to imagine their virtue matters. It does not in the modern dating world.

99_Problem · 2015-10-02T20:35:04+00:00

I think the issue is much larger than gender dynamics.

I think it has a lot more to do with social isolation, and internet addiction. The fact that a person can effectively insulate themselves from what used to be "normal" interactions and experiences; and instead, escape into their own personal echo chambers. We're at the point where, for whatever crazy beliefs a person may have, somebody somewhere is probably writing/blogging about it already. You can find validation, for better or worse.

Believe some crazy shit, read enough blogs and webpages and message boards for a long enough time to reinforce those beliefs, and that becomes your reality.

Dietyz · 2015-10-02T16:58:16+00:00

When I was a kid my mom always told me that I had to ask for consent, that women really value that and a good man will always do it. So when I was a teenager I actually uttered the words "can we have sex yet?", as you can imagine this really set me back with that girl and it took about a month to repair the awkwardness that question caused. Verbally asking for consent is the worst thing you can do to a girl who is on the fence about whether or not she feels like having sex, it makes everything feel transactional resulting in her feeling like a slut. I have never ever heard anyone IRL talk about how important it is for things to feel natural and like "it just happened". People don't tell you that it is important to escalate solely through body language and than verbally tease or command, never ask for permission. Yet a large majority of feminists are claiming anything without verbal consent is rape. Do you read about men asking permission in your romance novels? I wonder if they actually think that they want that

Idk if I would say its denial though, I think its more they just put too much weight on their conscious desires and aren't aware of their subconscious desires. Shouldn't be giving out advice that is based on conscious desires tho, its useless on its own

FleetingWish · 2015-10-02T19:39:57+00:00

It is very easy to think of people who do horrible thing (rape, murder, etc) as "defective people". That way we don't have to worry about what we are doing to others, and our own capacity to be "evil". It is very easy to think, "I would never do that", when studies and history has shown that the majority of us would, given the right circumstances.

Thinking you are not capable of doing horrible things, and putting those who do horrible things in a mental category for "defective people", is intellectually lazy. It takes away the possibility to learn from it, and possibly stopping it from happening in the future. Without empathy, and the ability to realize those "defective people" might have triggers, desires and motivations just like the rest of us, we will never fully understand them.

Instead of asking why there are horrible people in the world, ask why would a normal people behave horribly.

midnightvulpine · 2015-10-02T16:45:19+00:00

I don't think I have seen anyone say society of feminism are perfect. Society has plenty of issues. Plenty of things that could be better. But I don't believe it has some overarching agenda to mislead and ruin men. And I don't believe it needs a hard reset.

The issue I see with a lot of MRA and RP sorts is they don't have the will to fight for what they believe. I have yet to see any real activism on these issues they find so concerning. Mostly they make posts on the Internet or videos on YouTube. Social change won't just happen. Women had to sacrifice for it. As did African Americans. People died over what they thought was right

Not to say you lot have to do the same, but it's hard to take dire predictions of the end seriously when it seems like those who speak of them don't.

dakru · 2015-10-02T16:42:33+00:00

I think everyone needs a healthy dose of understanding that their own life experiences do not necessarily line up with everyone else's. I think in a lot of cases these are people who basically from "well I've never seen that stuff" (bad advice to men, shaming of male desire and male sexuality, etc.) and they conclude "that stuff doesn't exist, you just made it up".

To them I would say that your life experiences (of not seeing those things) are entirely valid, but by the same principle so are the life experiences of the people who do see that stuff. We need to get past the idea that "what I see is all that exists".

If we want a comparable example on the other side, this is like someone who says that they've never seen cat-calling and declares that it's not really a thing.

quantumtrollening · 2015-10-02T18:05:38+00:00

"Is other people's disagreement with me partly due to their ignorance?"

What was the point of asking this question?

wtknight · 2015-10-02T17:27:41+00:00

I think more work can be done to improve men's confidence without resorting to The Red Pill and its perceived inferiority of women. The problem is that there are two extremes of advice being given to men (Blue Pill: "Be yourself because women will naturally see how great of a person you are." and Red Pill: "Be alpha and lift weights because women are inferior and unconsciously want to to be controlled by a superior man."). Both are very poor advice and the answer for men is somewhere in between these two extremes.

taiboworks · 2015-10-02T16:42:17+00:00

The underlying implication is that there's nothing wrong with society, nothing wrong with feminism, and if these men are acting out, it's because there's something wrong with them as individuals.

what percentage of the average date rape is a girls fault? what percentage of the average red piller's failure/problems (or this shooter's failure/problems) in life is their fault? what percentage of this shooters crime, or any terrorists crime is their fault?

do you think most red pillers would agree with your above answers? if not, why?

i think a big issue with red pillers (and selfish, narcissistic people in general) is they are over-sympathetic to themself, and under-sympathetic to others (hence the common red pill 'woe is me, my stem bad ass self deserves a better life, women and non red pillers are horrible, trash, deserve a worse life', 'my problems are very important, female problems are not even real', 'my being an outcast growing up was awful, female rape victims are probably mostly liars, or mostly culpable for their rape'). this is major road block in anyone ever liking them (no matter how attractive they manage to make themself on the surface).

people don't tend to like selfish inconsiderate people, because people like that don't like others, don't care about them. it takes a pretty enlightened person to see someone like that and be sympathetic to them. and even then that enlightened person knows that the prognosis for someone like that is not good (because if one is selfish and their self identity is tied to their attractiveness to others, they are not going to want to admit that being selfish is a problem, or any of their flaws are problems).

there can always be improvements to society (the problem is no one here probably agrees on what those should be), but better mental health resources and fitness programs is probably the best solution to troubled men (and women) that i think most everyone here would agree with.

Carkudo · 2015-10-02T17:18:06+00:00

The denial is certainly strong. Although to be fair, we don't know whether what's being denied is actually completely true. The problem is less denial and more refusal to consider.

octopus_sushi · 2015-10-03T10:37:12+00:00

The underlying implication is that there's nothing wrong with society

I disagree with this as well. I also think the mainstream is in denial. For centuries, western men have lived in an unabashedly patriarchal society. A lot of men are having trouble adjusting to a more egalitarian society, one in which they are not entitled to relationship or sex. Some of them talk about it angrily on the internet (women are sluts because they sleep with people they want to!) a few turn to violence (if I can't have sex, I'm going to kill people!). I think a better system is needed to reach out to these men and provide them the support system they need in these times of change.

DStoo · 2015-10-02T16:51:03+00:00

If men weren't systemically lied to, shamed for being men, and given female advise about dating for decades, they wouldn't go this far. This whole system needs a reset. It's gonna get worse before it gets any better (for men).

Look at where their 'sources' are that lied to them. Movies. RomComs.

It's like complaining that the Hulk gave you inaccurate information about Gamma Radiation Safety or Iron Man lied to you about the realistic expectations of an engineer.

I agree that it's denial, but it's denial on the part of TRP that they're making stuff up in their head that doesn't exist.

JeanValjean197o · 2015-10-03T13:54:49+00:00

First, you are trying to attribute to women some form of accountability for their actions.

As we know women are never to blame for anything.

This is one of the reasons women aren't given the same respect as men. If women can't fail then have they really succeeded?

I mean, if you were always walking that tight rope or flying on that trapeze with a safety net below then you haven't really done anything have you?

But take away that net and the crowd will roar with approval.

Women always have a net. Men rarely have a net.

So long as women insist on not being to blame when things go bad they are reminding us all that they play with a safety net.

Nothing is ever their fault. Not the fuck ups and not the great achievements either.

Title	Is denial a part of the problem?
Author	ValleyFever101
Upvotes	29
Comments	207
Date	October 2, 2015 4:15 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3n8p5p/is_denial_a_part_of_the_problem/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-denial-a-part-of-the-problem.279277 https://theredarchive.com/post/279277

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