Men's Rights and Women's Rights are both Human Rights

jmnzz · 2012-10-04T04:55:41+00:00

wouldnt you agree that the whole men's rights vs women's rights takes away from what it truly is?

It isn't men's rights vs. women's rights.

It's men's rights vs. feminism.

There is a very big difference.

Eryemil · 2012-10-04T05:56:36+00:00

You actually sound more like an Egalitarian. I lean towards MRA, but I am in truth an egalitarian.

Welcome :)

Roddy0608 · 2012-10-04T12:59:10+00:00

Welcome. Stick around. :-) Don't be scared off by the anger expressed here. I think most of us care about women's rights just as much as men's rights. The problem is just that men's rights are sometimes ignored or not taken seriously enough.

Iihemc · 2012-10-04T09:02:31+00:00

Feminism is a blanket term for a myriad of outlooks and movements that have brought women out of second class citizenship. Out of necessity some of those philosophies are entrenched in aggressive anti-male stances. Fine. Dandy. Men's Rights is a reaction to the over zealousness of certain feminist principles. We've gotten to the point where a fair number of dudes are egalitarian regarding the gender plight. Now these dudes can unite and remind the world that dudeliness deserves respect. Right?

MiniMosher · 2012-10-04T12:54:42+00:00

honestly OP, I have never. ever. seen a guy or girl say in any MR space (sure you get those traditionalist sites who support mens rights and oppose womens rights, but that's another story) on the internet that they are opposed to womens rights, opposed to feminism? yeah, there's plenty of that, but not womens rights. There's a good chance some MRA's do possess a ''MR v WR'' mentality, but I personally have yet to witness it :)

PacmanWasALangolier · 2012-10-04T13:17:44+00:00

I'm a feminist, but I hate feminists who degrade men

Then you're not a feminist, you're an egalitarian.

Sebatron · 2012-10-04T13:08:10+00:00

I'm a feminist, but I hate feminists who degrade men, they're contradicting themselves. Likewise, I don't like some of the posts here that have the same tone.

There are crazies in every movement.

But honestly, wouldnt you agree that the whole men's rights vs women's rights takes away from what it truly is?

Feminism and women's rights aren't synonymous with each other (feminism is actually a hyponym of women's rights).

I consider myself a egalitarian. I give higher priority to men's rights because many of the problems are legal while many of the problems that feminism (and other similar groups) are complaining about are social.

ExpendableOne · 2012-10-04T14:54:12+00:00

It's really not "men's rights vs women's rights", at all. There's "Men's rights vs misandry", which is pretty dire considering that the majority of human culture still fails to recognize misandry. There's "men's rights vs feminism", which is also important because not only does feminism also fail to recognize misandry or other men's rights issues(despite claiming itself to be the only egalitarian movement) but often even plays an active role in hurting men, vilifying men, blaming men and/or defending other infringement of human rights against men. Men's rights and women's rights are complimentary to one another, from an truly gender egalitarian point of view(many, if not most, MRA's here would also consider themselves egalitarians or WRA's as well; they just want the same standards which are applied to men to also apply to women, and vice-versa).

The emphasis on men, from the men's rights movement, is only really there because nothing else is being done for men; something which feminism and historical social dispositions towards male disposability(which are probably as old as human culture itself) are both responsible for. Most still fail to even see the problems, let alone recognize their significance or source, and couldn't care less about defending men from gender equality in the first place. The day feminism dies completely and is replaced by another, more honest/grounded/balanced women's rights movement, or superseeded by a truly gender egalitarian movement is the day you will see the need for the emphasis on men within the men's rights movement removed as well.

Nepene · 2012-10-04T07:38:20+00:00

Your genitalia do make a difference. For example in the US the forest service, which maintained US forests, used to be maintained by mostly white males. 100 million acres were maintained by a diverse range of experts that worked tirelessly to keep the US beautiful.

In the 1960s feminism came. Washington grew unhappy with the status quo and one office hired a woman, Gene Bernardi. She was in her mid forties, wore rimmed glasses, and was known to be sensitive to criticism. She quickly demanded a promotion, was refused one, and sued the forest service. After some legal stuff happened she got her way and the forest service promised to hire more women.

Long story short, not many women applied, those who did were wildly incompetent, numerous people died because of their incompetence, unqualified women were routinely promoted above men (who were rarely promoted now) the forests stopped being managed, paths were no longer maintained.

Those women were not awesome. They were wildly incompetent. Their lack of testicles and testosterone for muscle growth led to many deaths and the ruining of forests.

It is important men have rights to do what they are good at, it is important women have rights to do what they are good at.

2012-10-04T15:10:32+00:00

What you've just said, is hate-speech if you listen to feminists. Men's rights are not human rights. Saying that makes you a terrorist. Just look at the campaign in Vancouver where they posted posters saying just that: Men's rights are Human Rights.

And that is why the MRA is needed. Sure men's rights and women's rights ought to be the same, but they are not. Men are disposable, men aren't people and men don't have a voice. Whenever a man does speak up, there is a collective of feminists to push him down by whatever means they can condone through their ideology.

I welcome you to the MRA, but don't come in with your eye's closed. Just thinking men are people paints you as a terrorist like the rest of us.

RaptorPrincess · 2012-10-04T15:24:39+00:00

I call myself an egalitarian, because at the base of feminism there is still an emphasis on the female aspect. Given that our justice system has reacted so much to women's rights, to the point of being excessively pro-woman in criminal trials or the family courts system, I really can't take women seriously when they complain it's a man's world.

For example, I have about a half dozen friends (female) who always insist they're completely independent, strong women who don't need men. These women go on to say that there's "no good men" out there, and they demand to be catered to like a princess by the few they encounter. I remember a friend posted a status that said, "I demand to be considered a man's equal. That being said, they should still open doors for me."

The blatant hypocrisy of most feminists (I really feel you're in the minority, deerp) is what keeps me away from their movement. I've asked feminists how they would fix the family courts system that almost always chooses in favor of the mother, how they would stop blatant greed affecting child/spousal support in divorces (that, again, favors women). I've even asked, "well, what about domestic violence shelters that don't allow men? Women can be the abusers, as well."

I always get a wave of the hand and a flippant response along the lines of, "well, the amount of men who are harmed by the movement are such a small percentage, they don't matter to us."

That's not a movement I will ever be a part of. I agree with a lot of MRAs here, because they've seen, if not personally been affected by, the result of an over-emphasis on women's rights, needs, and concerns.

We, as women, need to wake up and take our pride down a notch. We can't expect to be treated as equals if we're still demanding he pay for dinner.

Edit: Also, look at ladyMRAs

mjknuth · 2012-10-04T14:45:20+00:00

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ustael · 2012-10-04T21:47:31+00:00

I hear that. What we all need to understand as a people is that we are divided on so many levels that it is easy to manipulate us all. "us vs. them" is so cold war. We need to rise above and work together to clean this whole mess up. = for all.

2012-10-05T01:46:15+00:00

I agree with this

Men's Rights and Women's Rights are both Human Rights

You are right. However I feel I should state that feminism has taken the role of "For the advancement and betterment of women" over a role of equality. That is what I dislike about it.

I fully believe that all human beings ought to be viewed as equals. The only time someone should not be afforded full freedoms is when they present a direct threat to the autonomy of others. Aside from that all people should be regarded as equal.

I love this story for establishing a nice viewpoint for it.

veedub447 · 2012-12-04T21:32:44+00:00

The Men's Rights Initiative, MRI is interested in ending discrimination against men in educational institutions, government public policy , and employment. The goals include obtaining gender neutral laws in every state and ensuring the dignity of men in the cultural media. Join us on facebook https://www.facebook.com/TheMensRightsInitiative

Nomenimion · 2013-02-09T16:53:36+00:00

Men's rights and women's rights are both human rights, but feminists don't always support human rights. For example, feminists calling for censorship, and supporting a mentally of guilt by accusation, especially in rape cases.

iongantas · 2012-10-04T14:29:25+00:00

If you hate feminists who degrade men, then you are not a feminist.

rightsbot · 2012-10-04T04:46:18+00:00

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PandaSandwich · 2012-10-04T15:18:29+00:00

You sound like a egalitarian, not a feminist.

2012-10-04T11:03:51+00:00

Welcome! I consider myself a fair-minded person working through/with the MRM. Egalitarianism is probably my brand, but the need is greatest here.

tone_ · 2012-10-04T15:09:15+00:00

I don't get how you can have the logical idea of mens rights vs womens rights being silly, yet still be a feminist. I agree with your point about human rights, but as far as I can see that kind of contradicts feminism nowerdays. I'm not pro this or that, I simply wish to look out for my rights right now, that apply to me, as it's the only ones I can really remain aware of and comment on.

Feminism itself I don't think can be given a positive connotation again, as it's become so mixed up with general hatred. I don't think there is a need for anything that could be defined as feminism nowerdays, and the term itself is too hostile now. There was a time and a place when it was necessary, but now we should simply be working towards equal and fair rights, as there are problems with some issues for both genders now.

Most of the content I see here is pretty much just examples of exaggerated feminism or of mens rights being unfairly flaunted. It's not comparable to feminism in that men aren't trying to break any new ground here, and are simply attempting to improve some of the deficiencies for the gender in society. I'm not trying to say "we're good and you're bad", it's just as I see it. I guess that's what feminism does too for women at it's core, it's just so diluted with idiots that guys often won't hear it out or take it seriously.

drinkthebleach · 2012-10-04T15:31:50+00:00

10th feminist of the week telling us we're doing it wrong. We're fine, thanks.

ejp1082 · 2012-10-04T17:13:25+00:00

All rights are human rights. All human beings have a right to equal protection, fair justice, dignity, liberty, etc. High level concepts that every issue talked about here as well as every issue talked about in /r/feminism and whatnot fit into.

But the reason you break it down into men's rights, women's rights, LGBT rights, minority rights, worker rights, atheist rights etc is that there are issues that impact members of one sex/gender/ethnicity/religion/class and not others.

And it's not a bad thing in of itself, to have gay people fight for gay rights and women fight for women's rights and men fight for men's rights etc. People are going to be more sensitive to things that impact them personally, and probably the most effective at fighting for their issues.

The problem is when some people take on an adversarial attitude. Some mens rights activists and some feminists seem particularly prone to this problem, adopting an attitude of zero sumness where one groups gain is always the others loss, and refusing to acknowledge that the other camp has legitimate grievances. That's the kind of stuff that's gotta stop.

TL;DR: There's good reason to have "mens rights" and "women's rights" as separate things, but you're right that it's all human rights and everyone in both camps should be able to support one another in the interests of creating a more fair, equal and just world.

d6x1 · 2012-10-04T17:58:29+00:00

You are not a woman. You are a person who happens to have female anatomy.

You are not a man. You are a person who happens to have male anatomy.

DavidByron · 2012-10-04T19:53:10+00:00

I'm a feminist, but I hate feminists who degrade men, they're contradicting themselves

That's all of them.

If you can't tell the difference then between the MRAs and the feminists then take a glance at the top issues being discussed on the respective subreddits. On the MR sites you'll see numerous cases of very significant legal discrimination. On feminist sites you'll maybe at best find someone going on about some bullshit a co-worker said to them.

There's no comparison and those who pretend there is are degrading men too.

Autsin · 2012-10-04T13:12:38+00:00

I completely agree with you. On both "sides" I see anger and hostility toward the other gender. Not everyone is like this, but there are enough instances so that it's easy to notice.

I've always loved women. I respect them a lot and a majority of my friends have always been female. I'm happily married to a thoughtful, wonderful woman. Despite having a pretty happy disposition toward women, this subreddit has shown me that men do get treated very unfairly (offensively, disgustingly unfair) in certain instances. To say that men have a primary influence in society is almost certainly true. However, to claim that "all the power" in society belongs to men is absurdly false. There are many areas in which women have the final word, and often women exclude or discriminate against men in favor of women. Heck, even men discriminate against other men in many ways. This doesn't offend or anger me, however, because men do the exact same thing when we are in positions of power. It is a flaw - you may even call it a sin, gross misconduct, or hateful action - but it belongs to all persons regardless of gender.

Despite the anger and bitterness which pops up from time to time, there are completely valid arguments made in this subreddit. Despite the emotion, I can see clearly that a violation of dignity, of rights, and of fair treatment has been made. I can see (because those who post here often have an article, cartoon, picture, or personal story which clearly illustrates their point) what has happened and what should have happened, and it becomes very clearly wrong to me.

I appreciate this subreddit. I know that one day I will get tired of the same anger and hostility over and over. I will grow tired of the same memes which are repeated over and over about how unfair the world is. I will unsubscribe and move on to other places. However, it is no stretch for me to say that I will remember this subreddit for the rest of my life as a turning point for me. Stumbling across this place has caused a flash of awareness to occur in my mind. Suddenly, I realized that I'm not the bad guy - we all are. Everybody hurts, and everybody hurts others. I'm not the "oppressor" and others the "oppressed;" we are all both oppressor and oppressed. It was at the same time freeing and humbling for me to realize that society is hostile and unfair even to the group (men) which has held the most power/influence throughout history.

Truly, I will be forever thankful for the creator, the mods, and the posters and commenters in this subreddit. You all have opened my eyes to the struggles of men, and for the rest of my life I will continue to fight for the rights of all people - including those who seem to be the "best off" in a society. Discrimination and violations of rights are wrong no matter where they are found.

EvilPundit · 2012-10-04T15:45:06+00:00

I totally agree with this. There is a "us" versus "them" mentality out there. When someone mentions feminism there are people who are going to bring up women who go over the line, and try to put women above men. But this is not what feminism is about. The term's roots come from women's rights but now it is more appropriate for equal rights for everyone.

deerp · 2012-10-04T04:47:01+00:00

We don't need any more Feminists coming here and telling us they don't like how we run ourselves, in my eyes the Feminist movement as a movement has had enough time to care about men's issues and done nothing, any action you take now is hollow and pandering, you can't leave us intentionally out in the cold for 100 years and think we'll cooperate now, this is our liberation on our terms.

Windex007 · 2012-10-04T16:36:47+00:00

If you're a rational, logical person, I'd probably find another subreddit.

This subreddit, despite it's name, has only the faintest connection to mens rights. It's primarily a "fuck feminists" platform. Somehow the focous has gotten so warped here, and I'm not sure if it's due to stupidity or lazyness but that is the state of affairs.

EvilPundit · 2012-10-04T17:12:43+00:00

Hi there, as a woman, I completely agree with what you are saying. I do not call myself a feminist because most of the misconceptions men have about feminism. It saddens me to see that most of the people on this post think that feminism is about women wanting to be dominant, or that feminists do not care about men's rights because it is the study of " women's right" not everyone's rights. Completely false, feminism thinks that in order for women to be liberated, men also need to be liberated and both need equality. The feminist movement and feminism altogether are about seeking equality for women, so that men and women stand on equal ground. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

BioGenx2b · 2012-10-04T13:03:08+00:00

I tried explaining that. You're absolutely right, both positions are inherently egalitarian. The problem is the gender clubs some people think these movements are, so they flock to them and ruin it for everyone. Then I have to hesitate for a moment before stating that I'm a feminist or an MRA. It doesn't matter who started it, everybody keeps it going and it's .sdrawkcab ssa

theguesser10 · 2012-10-04T15:40:06+00:00

"I'm a feminist, but I hate feminists who degrade men" Then you're not a feminist, you're an egalitarian.

This subreddit needs to get one thing straight. Feminists do not hate men. Radical feminists are the ones you are thinking of. True feminists hate them just as much as you do. I am fed up with this subreddit for perpetuating this childish lie. Feminists do not degrade men, and hating them does not make you feminist. Nor does it make you egalitarian. Real feminists are egalitarian, and you can feel free to call them as such, they just go by the name feminist as that is what most accurately describes what they're doing, namely womens' rights elsewhere in the world.

The sooner this subreddit gets this the better off it will be. As of now, the rest of the internet looks down on this subreddit severely for this very reason. They view it as a bunch of whiners who don't know what they're talking about. This is because, time and time again, users on this subreddit have shown the world that they in fact do not know what they're talking about. This is a classic example of the story of the boy who cried wolf. And it needs to stop, now.

Title	Men's Rights and Women's Rights are both Human Rights
Author	deerp
Upvotes	219
Comments	169
Date	October 4, 2012 4:45 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/10x5kx/mens_rights_and_womens_rights_are_both_human/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-rights-and-womens-rights-are-both-human.1012094 https://theredarchive.com/post/1012094

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