What's Wrong With "Men Can Stop Rape" ???

ProjectDirectory · 2012-04-11T04:37:17+00:00

It's wrong because it implies that only men can rape.

preved · 2012-04-11T07:56:53+00:00

It's wrong because it implies that every man participates in rape: either as a rapist or as a witness.

rightsbot · 2012-04-11T02:52:18+00:00

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funnyfaceking · 2012-04-11T05:12:22+00:00

If a man is not raping in the first place, he cannot stop it. An object that is at rest has the tendency to remain at rest. I may have failed physics but I did attend the first day of class.

2012-04-11T05:09:46+00:00

Well put. Why should this issue be shoved in the face of the entire male gender, when men and women who are sick enough to rape are obviously going to do it anyway?

MissL · 2012-04-11T08:05:26+00:00

"Men can stop rape" doesn't sound very different to "stop rape, say yes"

Maybe we can start a petition or something to have the slogan changed to "rapists can stop rape"

Detox1337 · 2012-04-11T08:50:21+00:00

If I was a man who'd been raped I'd be livid at the insinuation that I could have stopped it.

gorgias1 · 2012-04-11T14:10:52+00:00

In interpreting the slogan, I always inferred that the following premises were being used: 1) that rape culture exists; 2) that rape culture is perpetuated by primarily men's attitudes towards women; 3) that a man's relevant attitudes towards women is frequently or more likely to be learned from another man rather than from a woman or spontaneously coming into existence; and 4) that if the relevant attitudes of men towards women that perpetuate rape culture were to cease to exist, it would for the most part eliminate rape culture. I think if we assume these, it more or less follows that "men can stop rape."

That conclusion does not necessarily mean that all rape will be stopped or that it is the only way to stop it, but merely that one group does have at least some power and agency over the matter. In that context, I feel the slogan does have value. It is not a matter of men physically stopping other men from raping, but instead one that lies within the changing of normative values. I cannot ascertain this slogan's exact value however, because the prevalence of any attitude other than extreme abhorrence for rape is almost entirely alien to me in my personal experiences with other human beings.

2012-04-11T17:16:43+00:00

So can dogs and pet monkeys, for that matter.

What?

JockeVXO · 2012-04-11T19:54:45+00:00

Ehm, men can stop rape by not raping? But, apparently, women can't stop rape by not raping... Weird how that works.

topoi · 2012-04-11T06:33:51+00:00

What it's really about is trying to absolve women from every single drop of responsibility. That's why they also say the "rape is about power, not sex" stuff.

If they really wanted women to stop being raped, they would tell women to take self defense classes, and carry a rape whistle/gun/mace. No, they are more interested in vilifying men.

funnyfaceking · 2012-04-11T09:12:23+00:00

women can stop rape just as much as any man

Smithy365 · 2012-04-11T08:27:05+00:00

I agree completely, but would like to point out that in UK law, only men are capable of rape - as the offence requires penetration with a penis.

AnonTheAnonymous · 2012-04-11T22:53:42+00:00

The slogan is wrong because it implies rape exists because men are allowing it to.

alienorgyuv05 · 2012-04-25T02:01:42+00:00

so.....I searched "help quitting smoking" into the search bar and this one my 9th or 10th result, I read through all the comments, and can't figure out how this popped up as a result

jdezz97 · 2012-04-11T03:53:16+00:00

Well written.

Grapeban · 2012-04-11T09:44:47+00:00

"Men Can Stop Rape" was meant to be a counter to the culture of victim-blaming that popped up around rape. Think of the Slutwalks, that was also because of victim-blaming. "Men Can Stop Rape" was designed to oppose the idea that "Women Can Stop Rape (By Not Acting Like Sluts/Getting Drunk/etc.)".

But I still see your point, it does ignore the fact that men get raped and that women can rape.

However, I take issue with this point

However, men who are actually sick enough to commit rape aren't going to give a damn about a pat slogan.

No, one of the symptoms of our rape culture is, people don't realise they've commited rape. Often the victims aren't even sure if they've been raped. Rapists aren't monsters who stalk the streets preying on virgins, often they're just people who didn't listen when their partner said no. Or who guilt-tripped their partner into sex ("Oh, come on, I took you to see that movie last week, we never do things that I like"), or who got their partner drunk with the intentions of lowering their inhibitions and having sex with them.

If society wants to stop rape we have to stop treating rapists as an unstoppable force of nature. Most rapists aren't criminal masterminds or psychopaths, they're just stupid people doing stupid shit. People need to be educated so they know exactly what is rape and exactly why it's unacceptable to rape.

oozles · 2012-04-12T05:50:25+00:00

I think the slogan is more pointed at an idea still prevalent in society is "Don't get raped" instead of "Don't rape." If you don't think this idea exists, how else can you explain people justifying why it happened based on what the woman was wearing? Women are no more responsible for not getting raped that you are for not getting murdered, but the world doesn't seem to see it that way. Why should they need to watch what wear? Be careful of what they drink? Or where they go?

The slogan, to me, just seems like an attempt to extend the responsibility of preventing rape to men. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. I think that it embodies your last sentence. The slogan seems like an opening for men to contribute to solving to problem, to help protect each other.

I also think you're unjustly focusing on feminism here. The Men's Center at my university does a "Be that guy" campaign while rape awareness events are going on. We should reject the idea that we need a pat on the back for not raping someone.

Meadester · 2012-04-11T05:39:28+00:00

Most rapists are typical violent criminals who engage in a variety of crimes and other rights-violating behaviors throughout their lives. Most real rapists that is. Most men can't do much to stop real rape. What most men could do is stop having heterosexual sex and therefore stop all of the normal behavior that gender feminists conflate with rape (such as a man who, may or may not be intoxicated himself having sex with a woman who has had one whole glass of wine with dinner or - ZOMG! - persuading a woman to have sex if she's not 100% enthusiastic about it to begin with.)

Of course, victim feminists don't really expect men to stop normal sexual behavior, and they don't really want that. If they did, they would soundly endorse MGTOW. Instead, what they want is to keep a perpetual atmosphere of rape hysteria, where women with have a grossly inflated sense of their own vulnerability and are thus more ripe for recruiting by such feminists, and men who engage in heterosexual sex are under the constant threat of their partners accusing them of rape, giving women the upper hand in those relationships.

RiffyDivine · 2012-04-11T12:33:31+00:00

So wait, it's not stalking if I say it's part of an anti rapeing you plan?

Does it also count if I dress like batman well doing it, this is important.

nycjohndoe · 2012-04-11T13:23:43+00:00

you are first going to have to redefine rape. at least google's source for it since they say "committed by men". anyone who buys into the current definition will never understand your point

SpanishGuy · 2012-04-11T21:18:59+00:00

If someone still don't get it:

Most of you are Americans, right?. Pick something (very) wrong that some U.S. people do. Now say: "Americans can stop [that_wrong_thing]".

You don't say that because it sounds awful. It's a wrong construction.

Even if their intention was "those Americans that do [...]", it's incredibly stupid, because the subject is "Americans" and that's what people read.

Hell, I'm starting to think that it's a stupidity problem instead of sexism. You know the Grey's Law, don't you? It states:

"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

And it's a well known fact that the human stupidity knows no limits. Duh!

ultimusu · 2012-09-20T07:28:50+00:00

Everyone can help to prevent rapes by socialising others to the idea that rape is totally unacceptable. I felt the same as OP for a long while until the Assange debate brought up the fact that a lot of people didn't actually know what rape was or the legal definitions in their own countries, and could have become accidental rapists, therefore I feel initatives like this help educate males (there is so much anti rape education for females) and prevent future rapes. I saw an ad on youtube which came out recently (Search Lothian & Borders We Can Stop it) from Scotland which kinda gives good guidelines for young men. I also think young women need educated not to sexually assault too.

Blackandwhitehorse · 2012-04-11T03:59:06+00:00

"However, men who are actually sick enough to commit rape aren't going to give a damn about a pat slogan." But this isn't always correct, in a couple different ways. The problem is, you are defining rape in a "back-alley" sort of way and excluding date-rape and situations when one or more people are intoxicated. A lot of men think "well, I'm not a rapist, so I don't need to worry about it!" and then inadvertently perform or advocate rape or sexual harassment. This doesn't just extend to men, of course, because all people are capable of cognitive dissonance (especially about themselves), but this particular issue is one that men don't often think they need to concern themselves with.

"'Men Can Stop Rape' is bigoted". The reason those slogans don't exist is because they are too obvious. Black communities and leaders are fully aware that drug-use is perpetuated by blacks. I'm pretty sure I've seen the equivalent of the second one. And I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with number 3 (especially people trying to stop rape!). The issue is that, in this specific perpetrator-victim relationship, men do not always show support for rape-advocacy as a movement, for the same "not-a-rapist-not-my-problem" mentality mentioned above.

Which brings me to my final point. This slogan does not insult or demean women. The point is not to imply that women need surveillance. The message is clear that the point is for men to look at themselves and their attitudes towards rape, and if they see in themselves indifference or a "not-my-problem" attitude, maybe they should rethink their positions.

That being said, I completely agree with your third point. Sure, it could merely be a problem of scope, but the slogan does shift the conversation into a ham-fisted, not nuanced place.

*Edited for clarity.

picopallasi · 2012-04-11T10:05:06+00:00

"decent men can help prevent rape" is too long for sloganeering I guess.

keypuncher · 2012-04-11T12:08:56+00:00

Yes, a man can stop rape by not raping.

This was probably the sense in which the slogan was intended - and while I agree that violent rapists are unlikely to be influenced by such a slogan, those who wrote the slogan were most likely thinking of other classifications of rapists that most men consider more of a gray area.

Say "rape" to an average man, and the image that comes immediately to mind is some stranger stalking a woman and forcing himself on her.

Say "rape" to the people who conceived of this slogan, and they think of a great many more categories of behavior that qualify.

In reality, men have a possibility to stop rape. But so can women.

Women can stop (some) rape. For violent attacks, they could certainly take self-defense classes - but then again, so could the rapist. Biologically, men tend to be bigger and stronger than women, which gives men an advantage in a purely physical contest. For other definitions of rape, men tend to be socialized to be more aggressive, and women more passive - which leads to situations where women are being pressured into sex they don't really want but don't feel like they can refuse - this has recently been defined as rape in some places. For these cases, either party could stop it: the man by not pushing for sex, the woman by refusing and making the refusal stick.

"Men Can Stop Rape" collectively accuses men of being the only sex capable of raping.

Without looking at the statistics, I'm going to guess that outside prisons, the vast majority of rapes are male on female. The ad campaign isn't targeted at prison inmates or statistical outliers. On that basis, it is reasonable.

There are several problems with cases of rape in modern society.

The first has been around for as long as the concept of rape itself: that the victim is somehow to blame. Rape victims often see themselves this way, the idea is often reinforced by their rapist before or after the fact, many of their friends and relatives will view them as "damaged goods" after the fact, and some people will say they somehow invited the rape. These beliefs cause rape victims to be hesitant about reporting attacks, sometimes until after the physical evidence is gone.

A second problem revolves around rapes where the victim knows the attacker. While there are certainly plenty of cases where a woman is forced into sex by someone she knows, the definition of rape has changed so much in recent years that it is now possible for a woman to decide after a consensual encounter that she was raped and make it stick.

A third problem is that a cultural (and sometimes legal) bias has been created to automatically believe a rape victim's version of events in the absence of any other evidence to support their story. This is true of victims of no other crime.

To deal with these issues, we need to eradicate the cultural stigma of being a rape victim, ensure they have support from friends, family, society at large and the legal system, to help ensure that rapes are reported in a timely fashion, and while evidence can still be collected.

Women need to be socialized to believe that they have the right to say no and make it stick - and that while doing so is their right, failure to do so means they weren't raped. Deciding after the fact that a consensual encounter was rape is no different than giving someone a gift and then deciding later that you didn't want to, and calling the police to report it stolen.

The cultural and legal bias to automatically believe the rape victim needs to stop also - while I don't believe rape victims should in any way be further traumatized, ruining the lives of innocent men solely on one person's word is not acceptable either.

2012-04-12T01:33:38+00:00

sigh again with a misunderstood concept.

And again with something on the /r/MensRights front page that ultimately makes y'all look bad.

This post has bad PR written all over it.

Title	What's Wrong With "Men Can Stop Rape" ???
Author	SpeakToTheSky
Upvotes	174
Comments	224
Date	April 11, 2012 2:51 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/s3pec/whats_wrong_with_men_can_stop_rape/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/whats-wrong-with-men-can-stop-rape.1024281 https://theredarchive.com/post/1024281

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