Deconstructing why men's forums "always devolve into circlejerking about women"

peanutbutterjams · 2022-02-18T01:44:27+00:00

Look at TwoX or TrollX or any other women's forum. They're filled with women demonizing men.

You know why it doesn't happen here? Because the sub has a rule against demonizing women, a rule that none of Reddit's female-focused subs manage to apply for men.

rammo123 · 2022-02-17T19:11:57+00:00

Most fora have progressed enough that the discussion of men's issues is allowed provided that it's when the issues are caused by (or can be framed as being by) other men or men themselves. The role of women and feminism in men's issues is still verboten. So logically any place that does allow talk of women's role will disproportionately become about their role.

As to why third parties think all this criticism of women and feminism equates to toxicity is simple; they've been socialised to think this way. After all, women are wonderful and feminism is beyond reproach! In their reduced worldview, criticism of those two things is inherently toxic. They don't even attempt to parse the criticism itself.

problem_redditor · 2022-02-18T01:37:27+00:00

Because the perceptions of men and women and how we evaluate them in relation to each other matters. For example, the way in which people tend to view harms perpetrated by women as comparatively rare, and view it as trivial and not worthy of public attention when it is perpetrated (as compared with that perpetrated by men) is something that MRAs try to counter a lot. They do it because that perception can cause great harm.

Just to give one example of how this perception causes harm, this attitude leads to female perpetration of DV being ignored despite women being just as likely to perpetrate it as men. It leads to cops stereotyping men as perpetrators in domestic violence scenarios which sometimes leads to battered men being arrested. Failure to recognise and effectively deal with female perpetration is a huge problem.

So there are plenty of good reasons as to why a men's rights advocate would want to supposedly "bash women" (which in practice is really just a smear which gets very liberally applied to anyone combating a view of female innocence and non-culpability), and this need not be a bad thing. I'd go so far to say that it is necessary for MRAs to bring female bad behaviour into the public consciousness, and to make people understand that failure to recognise it hurts people.

Of course, MRAs basically can't win because once they do that, people paint these forums as being shitholes filled with misogyny and woman-hating, and people are quite frankly dumb and biased enough to not think any deeper into the issue than that before pointing their fingers and condemning them.

Call me a pessimist, but I think our views of female innocence and non-culpability (as well as our ideas of women being the appropriate beneficiaries of protection) are so entrenched that MRAs are basically trying to fight the tide. For people to get on board with what MRAs are saying, they'd have to suspend what feels just so right to them in order to embrace what feels deeply wrong on an instinctual, knee-jerk level, and most people will just not do that regardless of how well substantiated the position is. So instead of considering if MRAs might have a point about female bad behaviour and the fact that it is ignored when it occurs, they jump straight to "These people just hate women".

hottake_toothache · 2022-02-17T19:27:47+00:00

Our society allows women to talk endless shit about men, but criticizing women is off-limits. These reactions are grounded in gynocentrism and male disposability.

ExMuzzy · 2022-02-17T20:21:07+00:00

I get it from their point of view because it’s not all women. I’m not usually an eye for an eye type of person. I just find it hard to sympathise because of the “yes all men” attitude.

Also women have had a role in shaping male gender roles and you can’t solve a problem by ignoring one of the causes.

Some of these people probably have no intention of supporting men’s advocacy and are just looking for reasons why it shouldn’t be a thing.

Pm_Me_Dirty_Thought · 2022-02-17T19:39:29+00:00

Why do we pretend that in order for things to change , women won't have to lift a finger and reevaluate their position in how messy things are ? Leftists need to stop being so welcoming to toxic ideas.

insane_gravy · 2022-02-18T02:33:40+00:00

It's identity politics shit that our corporate overlords love pushing (can't let the peasants be united, they might get ideas), and they do push it whether you notice it or not. Yes that includes on Reddit.

How to fight it? You have to unite people around class. We can talk endlessly about how to help men, but that isn't going to get very far so long as you have a large population that has been propogandized into fighting never-ending battles with their neighbors about gender instead of presenting a united front against the ruling class.

Cfox006 · 2022-02-17T21:35:32+00:00

I hate this remark so much because it’s just playing ignorance to the world men are born into where value is heavily placed on female attention so a subconscious level, so when they don’t understand or empathize with the context of these discussions it’s just a slap in the face to ignore issues men face.

It’s like saying “why are all these people talking about alcohol at an AA meeting?” They undermine just how invasive the topic of “women” is in men’s lives.

a-man-from-earth · 2022-02-18T03:09:56+00:00

I would like more of a wider focus on here, because it's not just feminists that have their foot on our necks, but the wealthy oligarchy - which involves a large percentage of small minority men. Especially as the current cost of living crises wasn't exacerbated by Feminism, but by the likes of bosses, bankers, landlords, and more; and all of that is a more pressing problem for me right now (although the lack of male homeless shelters might be the very next one if I lose my home).

I do wish women were to realise that if they were to get more on board with what we believe in, we could actually make a world a fairer place. Afterall, crooked financial fraudsters like Elizabeth Holmes are doing just as much damage to women as male ones are. But apparently most feminists are happier to vouch for more female CEOs in the exclusive club of exploitation over the working class, instead of collectively fighting for a fairer slice of the pie for everyone both male and female.

Idesmi · 2022-02-17T21:36:15+00:00

Most often than not they don't devolve in circlejerking about women, but mere criticism of one or more women is considered as such.

BloomingBrains · 2022-02-17T22:33:31+00:00

Well if its bashing women, then its a totally legitimate complaint. But it sounds like the people making these arguments are trying to make it sound as though all discussion in these spaces about women is misogyny, which we all know is simply not true.

The fact is, women make up roughly 50% of people on this planet. To wonder why we talk about them as though its some great mystery is to insinuate that what they think doesn't matter and has no effect on men's issues, which sounds like far greater sexism to me.

This is doubly true for dating. It's an important issue to a lot of men right now, and it would be impossible to talk about it without involving women for obvious reasons, simply because most men are straight. This is also where a lot of talk about evolutionary psychology and biological sex differences comes from as well. I think some of the people complaining about this "circlejerking" are seeing all that and are concluding that we are saying all women are a certain way, or that the reason for being that way is deterministic rather than subject to free will. The mods are very diligent about making sure people specify they're talking about general trends here though, and not all, so they are either not really reading us or they are saying this in bad faith, knowing that's not actually what we mean.

So much of human behavior is influenced by the ebb and flow of the sexual marketplace, and guess who controls that (for the most part)?

luciolover11 · 2022-02-17T20:57:12+00:00

There’s definitely some misogyny in men’s communities, but the thing is that even a few sexist comments/posts here get communities like this one branded as misogynistic, but you’re gonna find an equal amount of, if not more misandry in women’s forums. It doesn’t take much scrolling in 2xchromosomes to get to something misandristic, but that doesn’t get it labeled as a bigoted community. (and rightfully so, a few bad posts don’t make a community sexist)

People are way more lenient about sexism in online communities for women than the ones for men.

(not even mentioning feminist spaces, which are pretty much universally very misandristic in my experience)

hhhhhhikkmvjjhj · 2022-02-18T01:11:10+00:00

I think for younger men their word is dominated by women and girls do much better at “work” (school). It makes sense to question the powerful people in your life. Women also have the upper hand in dating, at least when it comes to matches and deciding who gets to experience sex.

For mid life women women hold the keys to reproduction and sex. Women don’t need a man biologically to become a parent but as men we don’t have that luxury.

For older men I don’t know, I don’t think they are that interested in women. For them it’s more about healing broken hearts and recovering from divorces and bad relationships.

eldred2 · 2022-02-17T20:10:14+00:00

If you think 1+1=3, and you visit a forum where when people post about 1+1 they say 1+1=2, then you would label it as a "circlejerking" forum. You may go back to a forum where lots of people say 1+1=3, and complain about them, and they may agree with you that it is a "circlejerking" forum. That does not make it so,

Rockbottom503 · 2022-02-18T13:31:28+00:00

I think there's a proportion of guys who just have no outlet for getting this stuff off their chest who stumble across a forum discussing something vaguely related and they take the opportunity to vent.

superprawnjustice · 2022-02-17T20:21:55+00:00

It is what happens when a space is made to exclude a certain kind of person. The issues everyone has with that kind of person are discussed without as much inhibition, and they're gonna be discussed more often because it's the onky space where that discussion is encouraged. Womens subs talk about men. Mens subs talk about women. Gay subs talk about straights. Black subs talk about whites.

That's just how things work.

"off the spectrum" subs exist for any one of these groups, where the conversation generally devolves into bashing the opposing group. Generally these subs give everyone associated with them a 'bad name'. So now you can try to say something about mens issues and you'll be called an incel. You can try to discuss women's issues and you'll be told you're a misandrist. Etc etc. None of this helps foster healthy conversations.

Having good faith goes a long way on the internet. Good faith that the person on the other end has decent intentions, good faith that we are all working towards a better goal. I see feminism mentioned a lot on this sub and I cringe, but then I read the text and realize there's some really good points and I'm glad I'm here. Idk, the people who talk like op is saying don't understand how subreddits work, I guess.

vhisic · 2022-02-17T23:07:32+00:00

I think it comes down to comparing ourselves to them, fundamentally we are the same creatures, why do they get treated so well (or so poorly depending on the situation) compared to us. We look at what they have and ask "why not us too?" which then devolves into jealousy and turns into attacks. A lot of people also see the issues in these types of forums and find taking away from the other side seems more reasonable than give to ours, as if there isnt enough to go around so take it away from everyone.

I think you would need to look at specific issues and break them down to get a real ise as to why they convert the way they do but in a general overall sense this is my guess.

Douglas0327 · 2022-02-18T07:27:27+00:00

In the same way that there’s an overlap between being pro-women and anti-men, there’s an overlap between advocating for men and being anti women. There’s bad faith agents in every group, this one included.

DekajaSukunda · 2022-02-17T20:37:47+00:00

Eh I'm just gonna be real here, a lot of forums like this end up being anti-feminist circlejerks. This sub isn't an exception. There's a lot of posts in the front page complaining about feminism.

Now, is this bad? Not really, imo. I don't have a problem with it. I have my problems with feminism and I don't have much spaces to discuss them. The larger spaces you can discuss this at are right-leaning, so taking anti-feminist stances comes with dealing with a lot of other shit from them.

This sub adresses its stance on feminism on the side bar and I appreciate that. I just think it's important to remember feminism =/= women, and to say "not all" and recognise the good too when you're complaining about general behaviors of women. Yeah, yeah, it's annoying to type like that. But I think that constant repetition of generalizations is dangerous. Men who abuse women do exist, and they aren't just a tiny minority, and the harm they do isn't trivial. I don't want to be silenced, but I also don't want to feel like my observations and opinions are enabling abusive behaviors in men more violent than me.

This all comes from me growing up in a dysfunctional, abusive family. My dad was abusive towards my mom and me, and then my mom was abusive towards me, especially after he left. I have a lot of thoughts about the way my mom abused me, and how she was convinced her position as a mother and a woman enabled her to do so. But on the other hand, I don't want some abusive fucker who grew up in a twisted sexist family (like my dad) to read all that and feel enabled.

Capable-Service33 · 2022-02-18T02:37:00+00:00

It's probably trauma. Most men's groups tend to have places for emotional support so there isn't much more that can be done.

DeepFriedWine · 2022-02-18T06:19:21+00:00

Men care about women more than they care about men.

I'm looking for a partner, and when I find that it will be more important to me than any other relationship.

That's the essential truth that belies modern feminism beyond universal human rights.

LettuceBeGrateful · 2022-02-18T07:50:56+00:00

Gender-based groups focus on gender issues. Unfortunately, the gap between genders has widened, and a lot of men and women just spend time shitting on each other.

There are legitimate grievances, but often the bad actors will flock to the anecdotes and distort them into wild, generalized conclusions. Look at mgtow. In theory, it's just about going your own way, and it included a lot of men who'd had their lives unjustly destroyed by family courts or false accusations. Makes sense that those men are bitter at the system and society that left them to rot.

But then you have an element of those men who channel their bitterness into bigotry, and because it's a public forum, tons of other bigots flock in to take advantage of the stories about the bad women, in order to pathologize being women.

Same thing in reverse for lots of women's groups. Online groups tend toward echo chambers without appropriate moderation, but striking that balance is very difficult.

sad_femboi · 2022-02-22T17:26:46+00:00

I think it's because of two types of crowds that are usually attracted to anti-feminist content: misogynists and staunchly pro-free-speech types. Misogynists will make a forum go to shit and free-speech types often allow misogynists to drive a forum to shit.

McGauth925 · 2022-05-07T21:44:55+00:00

If there were no women, there would be no gender issues. Just as, if there were no men, there would be none.

Gender issues are about inequality between the genders. There have to be at least 2 genders for there to be inequality. The fact that one gender is treated less fairly depends on the fact that the other gender is privileged.

As somebody stated in a post on here, the fact that men's issues are much more often overlooked is, itself, the single biggest men's issue.

I'm thinking that quite of lot of feminism is devoted to the bad things about men, and the privileges that men are seen to possess.

Title	Deconstructing why men's forums "always devolve into circlejerking about women"
Author	Sorry-Difference5942
Upvotes	130
Comments	49
Date	February 17, 2022 6:58 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/suwdon/deconstructing_why_mens_forums_always_devolve/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/deconstructing-why-mens-forums-always-devolve-into.1101748 https://theredarchive.com/post/1101748

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