"By all means campaign all you want against male circumcision. But do so separately, don't distract from and derail the campaign against FGM." - Richard Dawkins

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Exclusively talking about FGM is kinda' sexist, you see, because it focuses on one sex and ignores the other in the case of a problem that affects both.

just don't interrupt discussions of FGM

What you're saying equates to "let them have their sexist little club where they treat girls as priceless and boys as worthless".

But you know what, we will immediately stop "interrupting their discussions" when the following criteria are met:

They stop interrupting ours'.
Our issues get the same media coverage and government money as theirs.
The laws treat the sexes EQUALLY in this regard, ie. if FGM is banned then MGM should be too.

We want nothing else but EQUALITY, funny how feminists take offense at that. Of course they immediately start spewing their bullshit about how the two issues are different, but let's just be honest for a second here, the only real difference is that one affects girls, and the other affects boys. It's clear as daylight that feminists think girls are more valuable than boys, but to build an ideology around this naked sexism is mindblowing.

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A circumcised man can still enjoy an orgasm and have sex without pain.

There are many who cannot though. Given that circumcision is designed specifically for the reduction or removal of sexual pleasure, that some men who are mutilated still are capable of sexual pleasure means they are simply lucky.

A woman that has had a full female circumcision is pretty well damned to a life without sexual pleasure.

Again, there are many circumcised women who are still fully capable of achieving orgasm. This in no way excuses or condones the practice of mutilating genitals. It is a disgusting practice for both sexes, and I simply cannot understand why people feel the need to continually elevate one form above the other. I understand the mechanism for mutilation between the two sexes is different. I also understand that male and female genitals are functionally different.

However, I think Dawkins needs to accept that ALL genital mutilation is a bad idea regardless of whether it's motivated by religion or false health concerns. His exclusive focus on FGM allows MGM a free pass...

This is entirely true. I would add That does not in any way lessen the trauma experienced by one over the other. To insist otherwise is to argue that one sex is inherently of more value than the other. Whether I cut off your little finger at the first knuckle or the third, it is still a egregious assault upon you.

EDIT: Instead of downvoting, why not provide a valid argument against my position if you think I am wrong. Discourse can't happen when you choose to silence an opinion rather than argue against it.

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Apart from the word 'False' in your response can you explain how the removal of the clitoris (which is what usually happens in FGM) compares to the removal of the foreskin?

False. Typically female circumcision (or FGM, I don't care which but let's keep it uniform) consists of the removal of the clitoral hood for the same reasons as male circumcision, most of which have been debunked.

When considering MGM or circumcision, a comparable operation on a female would be to remove the hood around the clitoris not the clitoris itself.

Perhaps comparable on the most basic level but not in magnitude.

To perform an operation on a man equivalent to FGM would be to remove the glans and part of the foreskin and sew the remaining foreskin across the shaft of the penis leaving only a hole to pee through.

False equivalent due to the difference in magnitude.

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By all means please do quote me a reliable medical source (as opposed to an activist website) that says the removal of the clitoris is less harmful than the removal of the foreskin.

I have not claimed that there is no scientific evidence against MGC. I will also re-iterate that I am against circumcision of any sort.

So, I will make my point again. Can a woman have a clitoral orgasm without a clitoris? Some women report that they retain some sensation around the G-spot area but as we know, the majority of women do not enjoy vaginal orgasms (estimates vary in the region of 70%).

However, as a man that has reluctantly undergone circumcision due to severe Phimosis and Lichen Sclerosus of the foreskin, I can still enjoy orgasm (I have pre and post circ photos if you doubt me!).

I have yet to meet a man that is unable to orgasm due to circumcision. I have unfortunately met some women that are less fortunate. I work in health services btw.

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It can be, or it can be the other way around.

The extreme procedure you used to hear about simply doesn't happen outside of extremely remote backwaters, and there, is extremely rare. Some people who have undergone FGM recieved nothing more than a nick on the clitoral hood (which is to say, something not even as damaging as circumcision). Others have simply had the hood removed (directly analogous to the standard circumcision procedure). While some portion has also undergone other forms of mutilation which actually are more extremely than standard circumcision.

but here's the thing... no matter how extreme, the worst case for FGM is not as bad as the worst case for circumcision (no matter how rare). I have never heard of anyone dying from FGM. They never accidentally (or purposefully) remove a large portion of the genitalia itself, or even all of it as can be the case in botched circumcisions.

The issue isn't nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

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So basically, everything has to be perfect for women everywhere on the planet before we can turn our attention to the boys in our own backyards? This is why men hate feminism. You get that, right?

No, you're being ridiculous. Seriously. I normally find myself agreeing with you, but here you're frankly being stupid.

Circumcision is a very different topic than custody, parental rights, false accusations, the draft, other forms of disposability, etc.

Male circumcision is mandated by two major religions of the world. Female circumcision (depending on who you ask) is mandated by one, or none.

So in the fight against circumcision you EatsTinyBaldBabies are taking on two incredibly huge groups who the instant you say you want to ban circumcision are going to declare you EatsTinyBaldBabies their enemy.

So go on. You're not the first person to take on a 6,000 year old religion and it's 1400 year old counterpart. I am sure you understand that 1400 year old counterpart is the world's fastest growing religion and has 1.5 Billion people in the world, and that the two religions in the US are 8,000,000 strong.

How many MRAs are there that want to ban circumcision?

I think you're making sense when you tell me how you /u/EatsTinyBaldBabies are going to demand your right to take these 8,000,000 people on head on. That will be a glorious night, the night /u/EatsTinyBaldBabies and the 80,000 MRAs of reddit go HEAD TO HEAD like TWO LOCOMOTIVES HEADING TOWARD EACH OTHER ON THE SAME TRACK against the 8,000,000 Jews and Muslims of the US with the 1.5 Billion Jews and Muslims of the World looking on.

I wonder how your battle will end!?

Oh, but instead, you want the government to ban it. The same government we rail against for enforcing child custody payment but never enforcing parental visitation. That government throwing fathers in jail, forcing men to sign up for the draft, forcing colleges to ignore men's rights in sexual harassment cases.

FUCKING BRILLIANT, when it comes to circumcision, you want to fight two religions that will ally against you, AND the First Amendment supporters in the US, AND the doctors that say circumcision is NOT what you /u/EatsTinyBaldBabies claims it to be, AND you're going to demand the US Government and State Government use their guns against these people to enforce this right that nobody apart from the 80,0000 members of /r/MensRights view as a right.

I think you have zero chance of accomplishing this IN THE WAY YOU ARE APPROACHING IT.

And realize Dawkins ain't even talking about the US. He is talking about the US and Europe and Asia and Africa.

So you could pull your head out of your ass and think strategically the best way to fight your fight or you can just jump up and down and demand everyone listen to you. You remind me of a two inch Daffy Duck at the end of Ali Baba Bunny claiming his rights to Bugs Bunny's pearl.

http://i.imgur.com/4zGOBzW.jpg

Daffy was too greedy and so are you.

All Dawkins is suggesting, and what I am agreeing with is that you fight your fight for circumcision however you want. No one is telling you to wait. What he is saying is don't derail the fight against female circumcision.

Instead of making one truly huge camel go through the eye of that needle, let two camels go through, and let the first camel widen the damn eye.

And like gay marriage, once one state legalized it, other states rapidly fell into place, and now the US is overwhelmingly in favor of gay marriage, so too will happen with circumcision.

This strategy of yours is precisely why for the most part MRAs get nowhere. We have dumbasses like Paul Elam all too eager to poison the well and alienating everyone for his first 15 years, and then in the next year shocked and offended that everyone in the US thinks he is an asshole, and we have MRAs too stupid to think strategically on circumcision to do be able to organize anything other than reddit downvotes on the subject.

I hope you like looking at cut cocks, because that is what you are going to get.

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The first result looks at reproductive morbidity. It concluded that certain types of FGM have significant problems, but more 'properly' performed types do not. That says nothing of sexual function in terms of sensation. The study I gave, on the other hand, directly addresses the issue.

Conclusion: Circumcised women can still have kids, but this doesn't speak to the other physical implications. (Using the argument from this study concerning women would be like arguing that circumcision in men is acceptable because circumcised men are still reproductively viable. I'm okay with this argument, but I doubt you are.)

This 'study' had a sample size of 18 and was conducted from the viewpoint of the social sciences, not any hard science. It is a fringe global health piece at best, and it was done poorly given the sample size.

Conclusion: It isn't a good study, but even if it was, you're not making any relevant argument anyway. Okay, circumcised women don't have a problem with their circumcisions. So what? That doesn't say anything about sexual function. It is neither an argument for nor against FGM; it is a small factoid that can only be absorbed into a larger framework in order to be an ethical argument one way or the other.

This is a review article that highlights the basics of how science works. There is evidence (as presented in my link and your first link) that FGM has health consequences, but some of the evidence is inconclusive or questionable.

Conclusion: It's an interesting article, but what are you trying to argue with it? I presume you're saying FGM research isn't rock solid, so for me to say it's wrong is on par with you saying male circumcision is wrong. I'm not sure. At any rate, there are no proven benefits of any kind from FGM and there is varying evidence of its harm. Male circumcision, on the other hand, does have proven benefits; the health consequences are non-existent.

[–]Eryemil 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Here's two of the best study on the subject I've found yet; which for some reason I can't see in my intactivism folder:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-0528.2002.01550.x/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2007.00620.x/abstract

Higher quality citations than yours, from what I can see. Can you link me to the full study? I googled but can't find it. I want to read their methodology.

I'm not sure. At any rate, there are no proven benefits of any kind from FGM and there is varying evidence of its harm.

That's easy to say when the subject is so taboo that it can't be studied. Tell me, exactly how many studies have there been on the subject compared to MGC studies?

When it is studied in the same vein as MGC, the results can be rather interesting:

http://www.iasociety.org/Default.aspx?pageId=11&abstractId=2177677

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/136/7/895.abstract

Male circumcision, on the other hand, does have proven benefits; the health consequences are non-existent.

Gassing the Jews during the holocaust probably had some benefits. Having benefits and being beneficial is not the same.

As I pointed out above, if we spent as much time looking for benefits of FGC as we do for FGC, we'd probably find it. Every study done on the former, even the ones with positive resuls, are done in the shadow of its negative reputation.

This is a review article that highlights the basics of how science works. There is evidence (as presented in my link and your first link) that FGM has health consequences, but some of the evidence is inconclusive or questionable.

As you will notice above in the new links, pretty much all studies about FGC, even when the results are good (an example, that it might prevent HIV transmission) it is downplayed or minimised in favour of reiterating how wrong FGC is. The fact that this review failed to find any difference based on the studies available at the moment, is quite significant. If they had, they would say so.

And by the way, I said that there was more available evidence on the negative effect of MGC than FGC, I didn't say one was actually worse than the other. Even if methodology is poor, that doesn't detract from my argument in any way.

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"As a continent, Africa has the highest percentage of circumcised men, over 60%. Africa also has -- as most people know -- the highest prevalence of HIV/AIDS, with South Africa housing the world's largest HIV-infected population. In countries like Nigeria and Kenya, (the latter being one of the countries where the study was conducted) over 80% of males are circumcised, yet they contain the second and fourth largest HIV-infected populations in the world respectively.

Among industrialized nations, the highest prevalence of HIV/AIDS is in the United States, which has the 10th largest HIV-positive population in the world. And yes, the USA also ranks number one among all industrialized nations in its number and percentage of circumcised men: 56% as of 2003, compared to countries in Europe, where circumcision is markedly less common -- as is the prevalence of HIV/AIDS."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/male-circumcision-and-the_b_249728.html

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It really is backwards. I 100% agree. I'm being downvoted for stating the facts of the situation (somehow, people are convinced Africa is using circumcision to hurt men when they're using it due to misguided policies in place to protect people) when I'm against circumcision.

The facts of the matter is that even the Ugandan president is against condom usage. He isn't against circumcision to protect people, he's against it to further the religious agenda fostering the climate of HIV in Africa. America's HIV problem is sexual education being dominated by religion; Africa's HIV problem is sexual education being dominated by religion. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

You're exactly right. Condoms are the only way to prevent HIV. Apparently, some fucking God means more to the Ugandan president than the sexual health of his entire fucking population.

[–]MoreFreeSpeech -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]assemblethenation 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Your advocacy is BS! Advocate for something that doesn't damage the boy's body, mentality and sexuality. The science presented regarding the efficacy of circumcision against HIV is suspect at best. The increase in protection is minimal if anything at all. Actual methods for disease control should be supported, not unproven half science.

Medical science without ethics to keep it in line is very dangerous. You should reconsider your position. Perhaps you should experience circumcision as an adult without anesthesia to know what it feels like? Then you'll be safe from HIV as well. Might as well cut off your fingertips, it will prevent you from getting a paper cut infection that could lead to death. Your quality of life shouldn't be affected. Go ahead try it, it's only a matter of ethics after all.

[–]MoreFreeSpeech -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

1) No studies show different levels or stress or mental health problems due to circumcision. You made up your claim.

2) No studies show an objective difference in the sexual lives of men based upon circumcision. You also made up that claim.

3) Studies give various results for the efficacy of circumcision in reducing HIV transmission, but 40% to 60% is the common range found.

4) Many of these studies are halted for ethical reasons, but not the ones you have: researchers often find such great results, they tell the uncircumcised groups and controls they should get circumcised. To continue without telling the uncircumcised men about these finding would be unethical.

5) Now, this is the Internet, so you don't have to do anything to publicly embarrass yourself, but ask yourself which of us has actually done the research. Then ask yourself if you've actually read any studies. Ask yourself if you've looked into the issue. I mean, really looked into it. Do you even know why researchers think circumcision conveys protective traits?

[–]assemblethenation 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]MoreFreeSpeech -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]assemblethenation 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Nice, you've posted a source to backup your claim that circumcision helps reduce HIV transmission. I'll check it out when I've time. It could prove interesting. It does not affect my argument, however.

Circumcising a male infant to prevent HIV transmission is retarded. Is the infant going to start having sex right after being wounded? Why not put effort behind actually preventing HIV using proven methods, like condom usage. This way the woman is protected as well. What about other STDs? is HIV the only STD that can cause humans problems?

Ultimately, I don't care if a grown man wants their own penis sliced in half. Don't do it babies!!! Cutting up a baby's sex organs as some kind of preventative for STDs is just as bad as cutting them up to reduce the incidence of masturbation.

I can't agree that ethics are not a major component in this argument. You suggest circumcision for all males to prevent HIV transmission and maybe save lives. That's an ethical position. I posit that you shouldn't cut babies before they can make decisions about their sex organs themselves, that's ethical position as well.

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