Is Toxic Femininity Real?

EverVigilant1 · 2023-11-20T16:47:16+00:00

Examples of toxic femininity:

--manipulation and gaslighting for the specific purpose of inflicting emotional and mental pain

--verbal abuse

--weaponizing sex: Conditioning sex on male behaviors; using sex as a carrot to incentivize behavior

--complaining about men asking about N-count, suggesting that men have no right to ask for or expect anything from their dealings with women; suggesting that men have no right to have any standards for women

--encouraging "white knighting" - suggesting that if a man comes to her aid she might have sex with him

--damseling: Playing the damsel in distress

--"don't hit me, I'm a girl!"- going on the attack; then when others respond, using her female status to play "victim", or suggest the response is disproportionate or overkill or because she's female

--demanding special treatment because of female status

EverVigilant1 · 2023-11-20T16:22:20+00:00

Yes. toxic femininity is real.

PrecisionHat · 2023-11-20T16:34:50+00:00

Toxic femininity, like toxic masculinity, exits, but is probably misapplied a lot. It's real when it's actually a judgment or behavior that is related to the idea of being masculine/feminine.

Ex. A woman shaming another woman for choosing to be a housewife is toxic femininity

EsqueStudios · 2023-11-20T20:23:52+00:00

My biggest gripe with the idea of "toxic masculinity" is that it places blame on masculinity... It tells you that something is wrong about masculinity, that it is the root of whatever evil or wrong a man commits...

Masculinity isn't toxic, toxic behavior is toxic. Conflating the two is unhelpful and just creates a confusing distraction from the real problem; society as a whole is becoming more toxic and self destructive.

Asatmaya · 2023-11-20T16:35:15+00:00

Yea, it's stupid.

The usual examples of "toxic masculinity" are misogyny, homophobia, and aggression... as if women do not exhibit the same traits mutatis mutandis.

I suppose we could separate out examples of "toxic femininity," such as manipulation, violence by proxy, and gaslighting, but again, men engage in those behaviors, too.

Boofasa · 2023-11-20T19:02:17+00:00

I don’t think there is such a thing as toxic masculinity or toxic femininity. You just have toxic people that do toxic things. If you use your masculinity or femininity as an excuse then you’re still toxic. We don’t really attribute toxic to much else like toxic negativity, toxic pessimism, toxic positivity, etc. Traits are just traits and the person that wields them is to blame. We shouldn’t blame firearms for harming people because it’s the person’s fault, alcohol doesn’t kill people from drunk driving, and so on. These things are neutral and it is up to the person to use it properly.

I also notice that there is no opposite to toxic masculinity, that tells you the concept is used as a weapon to shame men. What’s the opposite of toxic masculinity? Just masculinity? If you can’t give a positive form or examples of positive forms of masculinity then you tip your hat as a misandrist. It’s a cudgel to shame men for acting like men and ignores actual toxic individuals that use it as an excuse to be toxic

arrouk · 2023-11-20T17:35:40+00:00

Its just as real as toxic masculinity.

In reality it's just toxic people who are masculine or feminine imho.

Ok-Pomelo546 · 2023-11-20T19:29:16+00:00

It's very real. Look at mass media right now. Toxic Femininity just tanked the Marvels and Hunger Games, with losses over 300 million dollars. When the actresses are insufferable, entitled, narcissistic and spoiled brats who hate men, the general public will not support them.

r_c2999 · 2023-11-20T18:36:46+00:00

I get your point I think over time people just took toxic traits and applied them to masculinity to demonize masculinity. For example a man with anger issues may be labeled as having toxic masculinity but in reality if a woman has anger issues she does not have toxic masculinity. I think feminist and other bad actors alike just took traits from shitty people and applied it to masculinity. Masculinity in it self is not toxic but anger issues can be as well as an inability to be vulnerable. Masculinity in itself is completely different from all of those and I hope the world realizes that some day because both genders struggle with those issues.

You should’ve titled your post does toxic masculinity exist.

Throwawayingaccount · 2023-11-20T18:37:19+00:00

If it does exist, it is an equally poor term for the phenomenon.

mr_ogyny · 2023-11-20T18:39:30+00:00

Feminists call it internalised misogyny but if they want to keep labeling misandry as toxic masculinity, they should do the same and start using toxic femininity. They won't though because they're aware it sounds like a victim blaming term to the average person.

drmode2000 · 2023-11-20T21:11:34+00:00

Karens = Toxic Femininity.

vorare3561 · 2023-11-20T22:06:07+00:00

Feminism IS toxic femininity.

RollinRa · 2023-11-20T22:22:14+00:00

It's called feminism

Kilstradamus · 2023-11-20T22:46:56+00:00

If toxic masculinity is real, then so is toxic femininity.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2023-11-23T05:32:48+00:00

Yes, Toxic Femininity is a real thing.

We used to call women who engaged in Toxic Femininity "bitches."

HaathiRaja · 2023-11-20T16:36:57+00:00

Early_Inspector988 · 2023-11-20T17:09:18+00:00

Feminist here, yes toxic feminity absolutely exists.

Aspiengineer · 2023-11-20T18:03:12+00:00

I find both offensive. Sounds like "something inherently wrong with masculinity / feminity".

How about "male toxicity" / "female toxicity" : "asshole behaviors more likely to be exhibited by male / female".

EpicHajsownik · 2023-11-20T16:57:18+00:00

In the original meaning no.

Toxic masculinity/feminity are unfair and hurtful expectations towards one gender.

Men have Expectations of being strong and protecting women Also dying On wars.

Wonen domt have any expectations towards them, thus no toxic feminity.

Sadly both terms were changed by radfems to mean basically one gender being toxic (men)

m0rdredoct · 2023-11-20T19:22:35+00:00

I would say look female dating advice subreddit, but it got deleted (lmao)

Never seen such a spiteful place that treats men in the same way they'll start screeching if you treat them the same way.

XoXSmotpokerXoX · 2023-11-20T23:42:19+00:00

sure it exists..... if you need to stereotype a gender instead of comprehending the complexity every individual has....

But for conversations sake, it is a yin and yang thing, for anything that is toxic on one side of the spectrum, the opposite extreme is on the other.

What they teach women in business school about toxic femininity to empower them is to recognize their fear of direct confrontation, and how it is inefficient in a team dynamic. White it might be toxic masculinity to overly confrontational, the opposite of that is talking and undercutting people behind their back because you lacked the conviction to face a problem head on. So backstabbing and gossiping behavior is toxic femininity, and if a woman wants to be successful she needs to face problems head on.

Same thing with emotions, they say it is toxic masculinity to be unable to cry and show emotion, while the opposite of weaponizing emotions and crying is toxic femininity.

One can not exist without the other, but honestly they are both reductive.

KrazyJazz · 2023-11-20T17:18:54+00:00

Does misandry exist? No female teacher in the news lately "having an affair" with a kid? What about false accusations of DV or even worse? They are as degenerate and bad as we men are except society works hard to make everybody believe it's not the case.

ahoypolloi69 · 2023-11-20T23:34:06+00:00

The both exist, but toxic masculinity is obvious (bullying, threats of physical aggression, actual violence).

Toxic femininity involves covert aggression, and is thus more difficult to detect and punish.

Hazzman · 2023-11-21T00:12:25+00:00

I think the fundamental issue I have with these kinds of questions is that none of these attributes are gender specific.

Here is WebMD's list of toxic masculinity traits:

Homophobia. Toxic masculinity teaches men that homosexuality is a deviation from traditional masculinity and that gay men are less masculine. For example, consider the way terms like “gay” and “faggot” were and still are used as insults.

Need for control. Toxic masculinity encourages men to assert their power and dominance. We see this often in domestic relationships. The 2017 report "The Man Box" found that 34% of men in the U.S. believed they should always have the final say in their relationship, and 46% believed that men deserved to know where their girlfriend or wife is at all times.

Promiscuity. Toxic masculinity praises men for having multiple sexual partners while expressing disgust at women who do the same.

Refusing to help with household duties. Toxic masculinity rejects roles traditionally considered “women’s work.” Toxically masculine men often refuse to participate in these household duties. "The Man Box" found that 22% of U.S. men believed they shouldn’t have to do household chores, 44% believed they should be the sole income earners, and 28% believed that boys shouldn’t be taught things like cooking, cleaning, and child care.

Risk-taking. Taking risks and suppressing fear is another feature of toxic masculinity. As a result, men are more likely to abuse drugs, drive dangerously, gamble, and engage in violence. Sexual aggression toward women. Men who have been influenced by toxic masculinity are more likely to believe they're entitled to women’s bodies, leading to sexual comments and harassment toward women and a higher likelihood of believing rape myths.

Stoicism. A cornerstone idea of toxic masculinity is that showing emotion is weak and feminine. Men are expected to be mentally and physically tough without breaking. Statistics and studies show that men are less likely to pursue mental health services like therapy despite being 1.8 times more likely than women to commit suicide. Violence. Toxic masculinity encourages men to use aggression and violence to assert their dominance and masculinity. "The Man Box" report found that 23% of U.S. men believed that, if needed, men should use violence to get respect.

Let's go through these 1 by 1:

Homophobia - Clearly gender neutral... not a strictly masculine trait.

Need for control - Not gender specific - not a strictly masculine trait.

Promiscuity - The first of our misnomer categories. The description makes it clear that promiscuity isn't the issue - it's the double standard that genders experience when they are promiscuous. Women absolutely 100% refer to men and women as sluts or all sorts of names to derogatorily refer to those who are promiscuous regardless of their gender. Not a strictly masculine trait.

Refusing to help with household duties. - Not a strictly masculine trait. Not carrying your load isn't a strictly masculine trait.

Risk-Taking - Our second misnomer category. The description makes it clear that taking irresponsible risks is the issue, not risk taking in general. While taking risks generally might be a more masculine trait, it would seem that having the inclination to take more risks generally might make it more likely that men will take irresponsible risks. Can't argue with that, but not sure what the solution is.. and irresponsible behavior generally isn't a problem that is gender specific. I don't know what irresponsible behavior women might tend to express than men though so I can't compare and I wouldn't want to guess without data.

Stoicism - Our third misnomer category. Irrationally emotional display seems to be what men tend to take issue with. The problem here is who decides what a rational level of emotional response is? Well it goes both ways. I have no more right to tell a women she is being irrational than for a woman to tell me I am being emotionless or robotic in response to any situation. What's the take away here? I guess for me it would be that emotional expression is subjective and while men might suppress their emotions, women often unleash their emotions. Neither seems to be conducive to me. Emotional maturity would seem to me to be the goal and with that - not strictly a masculine trait.

Revised list:

Homophobia/Judging others consensual sexual activity - Don't concern yourself with how others express their sexuality or who they engage sexually with other consenting adults.

Need for Control - Don't dominate your relationship with others. Recognize the sovereignty of others, respect their rights and their boundaries.

Refusing to pull your weight in a relationship - A relationship is a partnership. Both should be contributing to the home, the income or whatever is necessary in an effort to fairly work together.

Irresponsible behavior - Don't take unnecessary risks.

Emotional Maturity - Neither irrational emotional expressing and or emotional repression is conducive to a healthy mind or relationship. Break down the taboos that inhibit one's inclination to find treatment for these issues.

None of the things in this list are gender specific.

Hazzman · 2023-11-21T00:12:42+00:00

I think the fundamental issue I have with these kinds of questions is that none of these attributes are gender specific.

Here is WebMD's list of toxic masculinity traits:

Homophobia. Toxic masculinity teaches men that homosexuality is a deviation from traditional masculinity and that gay men are less masculine. For example, consider the way terms like “gay” and “faggot” were and still are used as insults.

Need for control. Toxic masculinity encourages men to assert their power and dominance. We see this often in domestic relationships. The 2017 report "The Man Box" found that 34% of men in the U.S. believed they should always have the final say in their relationship, and 46% believed that men deserved to know where their girlfriend or wife is at all times.

Promiscuity. Toxic masculinity praises men for having multiple sexual partners while expressing disgust at women who do the same.

Refusing to help with household duties. Toxic masculinity rejects roles traditionally considered “women’s work.” Toxically masculine men often refuse to participate in these household duties. "The Man Box" found that 22% of U.S. men believed they shouldn’t have to do household chores, 44% believed they should be the sole income earners, and 28% believed that boys shouldn’t be taught things like cooking, cleaning, and child care.

Risk-taking. Taking risks and suppressing fear is another feature of toxic masculinity. As a result, men are more likely to abuse drugs, drive dangerously, gamble, and engage in violence. Sexual aggression toward women. Men who have been influenced by toxic masculinity are more likely to believe they're entitled to women’s bodies, leading to sexual comments and harassment toward women and a higher likelihood of believing rape myths.

Stoicism. A cornerstone idea of toxic masculinity is that showing emotion is weak and feminine. Men are expected to be mentally and physically tough without breaking. Statistics and studies show that men are less likely to pursue mental health services like therapy despite being 1.8 times more likely than women to commit suicide. Violence. Toxic masculinity encourages men to use aggression and violence to assert their dominance and masculinity. "The Man Box" report found that 23% of U.S. men believed that, if needed, men should use violence to get respect.

Let's go through these 1 by 1:

Homophobia - Clearly gender neutral... not a strictly masculine trait.

Need for control - Not gender specific - not a strictly masculine trait.

Promiscuity - The first of our misnomer categories. The description makes it clear that promiscuity isn't the issue - it's the double standard that genders experience when they are promiscuous. Women absolutely 100% refer to men and women as sluts or all sorts of names to derogatorily refer to those who are promiscuous regardless of their gender. Not a strictly masculine trait.

Refusing to help with household duties. - Not a strictly masculine trait. Not carrying your load isn't a strictly masculine trait.

Risk-Taking - Our second misnomer category. The description makes it clear that taking irresponsible risks is the issue, not risk taking in general. While taking risks generally might be a more masculine trait, it would seem that having the inclination to take more risks generally might make it more likely that men will take irresponsible risks. Can't argue with that, but not sure what the solution is.. and irresponsible behavior generally isn't a problem that is gender specific. I don't know what irresponsible behavior women might tend to express than men though so I can't compare and I wouldn't want to guess without data.

Stoicism - Our third misnomer category. Irrationally emotional display seems to be what men tend to take issue with. The problem here is who decides what a rational level of emotional response is? Well it goes both ways. I have no more right to tell a women she is being irrational than for a woman to tell me I am being emotionless or robotic in response to any situation. What's the take away here? I guess for me it would be that emotional expression is subjective and while men might suppress their emotions, women often unleash their emotions. Neither seems to be conducive to me. Emotional maturity would seem to me to be the goal and with that - not strictly a masculine trait.

Revised list:

Homophobia/Judging others consensual sexual activity - Don't concern yourself with how others express their sexuality or who they engage sexually with other consenting adults.

Need for Control - Don't dominate your relationship with others. Recognize the sovereignty of others, respect their rights and their boundaries.

Refusing to pull your weight in a relationship - A relationship is a partnership. Both should be contributing to the home, the income or whatever is necessary in an effort to fairly work together.

Irresponsible behavior - Don't take unnecessary risks.

Emotional Maturity - Neither irrational emotional expressing and or emotional repression is conducive to a healthy mind or relationship. Break down the taboos that inhibit one's inclination to find treatment for these issues.

None of the things in this list are gender specific.

Eastwood96 · 2023-11-21T03:39:59+00:00

Absolutely! Some good examples would be Golden Girls, Desperate Housewives and Bad Girls Club.

KINGMAEGOR2 · 2023-11-20T17:55:10+00:00

Toxic femininity is the rejection of it entirely. Women are supposed to be feminine and not these androgynous ogres that have ~~evolved~~ devolved in recent years.

DTreatz · 2023-11-21T01:08:39+00:00

Yes, its called femininity

Not even joking, theres a reason men controlled females all of human history, civilization cannot exist as long as theyre free, its fundamentally incompatible with their evolutionary behavior.

Current_Finding_4066 · 2023-11-20T19:16:37+00:00

Lok up feminist definition of toxic femininity.

Session-Special · 2023-11-20T19:45:07+00:00

There have been many questions about feminism. The question about toxic femininity is also not new:

Lets start with some thing so blind and simple - a definition of misandrist , simple hate towards a boy, or a man.
the belief of being superior to another based on sex.
women on women call out for being more traditional in certain roles.

As a noted personality stated. If If we are so to define what is toxic about masculinity, We should do so with toxic femineity. As that person did so in a room full of feminist - you could hear a pin drop after they asked for that definition. So did the next question mysteriously get asked.

so yes if you have one then you have the other. The fact that one side so deems to define it on a slanted/ one sided affair should be very telling. Very telling indeed.

Bascome · 2023-11-20T21:54:47+00:00

Male aggression and female vanity, both are linked to the ego but they are different.

MaxTheCatigator · 2023-11-20T22:32:16+00:00

I would call it toxic feminism instead.

schizophrenic_hermit · 2023-11-20T22:59:03+00:00

Toxic feminazis.

rbw223 · 2023-11-20T23:38:19+00:00

There are certain crowds within the feminist cap that not nnky want equality, they want to bury men with no regard for the fallout x. Not all of them, but a lot of them. That cannot be advocated.

Vladimir_Wesker2 · 2023-11-20T23:51:09+00:00

Yeah and on a larger scale than men, at least dudes knows how to control themselves to some degree and even reflect their own actions

AllGearedUp · 2023-11-21T00:18:33+00:00

There are certainly things that each sex tends toward but I don't think that pointing out this fact is useful in most cases. It is simply a person behaving badly, and unless they are bringing gender into it themselves (e.g. "wo/men shouldn't do x") it accomplishes nothing to try to make things more tribal.

Logical-Addition-448 · 2023-11-21T00:36:59+00:00

iSubParMan · 2023-11-21T01:02:53+00:00

Women who are consciously mean, knowing exactly the effect it's going to have on you.

antifeminist3 · 2023-11-21T01:28:07+00:00

Dr. Brene Brown was a feminist sociologist who studied shame--the negative feeling you get when someone criticizes you--"you should be ashamed". Women get shamed from a variety of sources. For years she never studied men. When she did, she found men rarely shame other men. Men's shame comes almost exclusively from women and almost exclusively from women's perceptions of men being weak.

'Toxic masculinity' includes 'not showing weakness'. I think 'toxic masculinity' is better framed as women shaming men and women having toxic femininity.

If women suppress men talking about issues, then the only issues that will be discussed are women's issues. This is the matriarchy asserting itself.

itsakon · 2023-11-21T01:36:44+00:00

Feminine toxicity and masculine toxicity.

Interesting to me that the term “toxic human behavior” sounds right- I think because human behavior is a grand total. Masculinity and feminine seem potentially objective.

tortillandbeans · 2023-11-21T02:04:45+00:00

Absolutely

grandma_jizzzzzzzard · 2023-11-21T16:26:43+00:00

All parts of feminism are toxic now.

More-Bluebird5805 · 2023-11-21T19:05:03+00:00

Toxic femininity is probably similar to toxic masculinity in the it is the over investment is stereotypically gendered expectations. So toxic masculinity might look like having sex with lots of partners in a deceptive, abusive, or uncaring way (using prostitutes for example) whereas toxic femininity looks like excessive chastity (refusing sex even with a loving committed partner). Toxic masculinity is shallow and overly focused on women’s youth and beauty while ignoring important character traits like loyalty, honesty, integrity etc. The toxic femininity analogue would be a woman who spends all her time on her hair, nails, make up, and body and thinks that entitles her to treat people like trash. A toxic male beats his wife and kids (excessive aggression) a toxic female lets him beat her and the kids (excessive passivity).

TheKalty · 2023-11-21T19:54:32+00:00

SelfTechnical6976 · 2023-11-22T04:43:16+00:00

Title	Is Toxic Femininity Real?
Author	Skeleton_Warrior
Upvotes	187
Comments	99
Date	November 20, 2023 4:13 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/17zs24r/is_toxic_femininity_real/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-toxic-femininity-real.1238942 https://theredarchive.com/post/1238942

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