CMV: The majority of red and blue pillers are unwilling to truly change their views because it would challenge their pre-existing mental schemas and create cognitive dissonance which would signify some oversight in the methodologies and patterns of their own thinking and consequent decisions

Electra_Cute · 2017-12-10T20:38:25+00:00

You have not been here long enough, people do change their views and see different perspectives over time on here, it is just difficult to notice. It does not just happen in one single moment, but several subsequent moments.

drok007 · 2017-12-10T20:15:16+00:00

I've been here for like 4 years, this subreddit is a dumpster fire. It always has been and always will be. The only thing we do here is continue to be garbage people and throw more trash in to keep the fire going. The people who think otherwise are either naïve, or have their heads lodged firmly in their own assholes.

Rockase13 · 2017-12-10T20:45:36+00:00

Everything you're criticizing is actually why you love this place, trust me

sublimemongrel · 2017-12-10T20:54:23+00:00

If you stick around long enough, you'll see many of us have altered our beliefs due in part to the conversations we have here. There are those who won't or rarely budge, but most regulars do.

SkookumTree · 2017-12-10T21:08:42+00:00

You haven't been here long enough to notice trends. This sub is very different from how it was a few years ago. You are right that people will cling like mad to their deeply held beliefs, but eventually they relax their grip and even let go of them.

You might be interested in how this happens. Change doesn't seem to be the result of a particularly excellent argument or some irrefutable piece of evidence, but rather the result of relationships formed on this sub. When you like someone, care about them, or respect them you are more invested in seeing their side of things. This prompts you to consider evidence and arguments that previously you would have dismissed outright. I have seen this happen as a result of one particular user befriending people on the IRC. And after I befriended a RPillish guy here who was autistic, a virgin, and incredibly kind, I could no longer imagine that all RPillers were asshole jocks that liked picking on women. My perspective completely changed from that point on.

Rockase13 · 2017-12-10T23:30:31+00:00

disagree, ive been blue pilled for 20 years and red for 2. the reason i don't change my mind isn't because i'm close-minded, but because blue pill is simply unable to develop a more accurate logical framework.

most blue pill arguments on this sub are politically correct unhelpful platitudes like "trp is not moral", or "NAWALT, i don't do the stuff trp says women do!", which doesn't help at all the root problem (barring trp, there isnt a source that gives useful sexual strategy advice for men)

despisedlove2 · 2017-12-10T21:16:22+00:00

Given that almost all RP are former BP by definition, I would say that there is a fundamental mistake in your contention. Those people changed once. Radically.

However, I will grant that such major changes in world view are generally rare unless prompted by trauma.

vandaalen · 2017-12-10T20:33:07+00:00

I lived in blue-pill fantasyland for nearly all my life. I had to become 37 years old in order to be able to see behind the horseshit that had been perpetuated to me for all my life, about how women are, what attracts them and makes them want to be with a man, about my masculinity that is inherently bad and has to be kept in check, etc. pp.

So I think you can safely assume that I do not have a problem with challenging my views.

BothWaysItGoes · 2017-12-10T23:44:54+00:00

What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Red Pillers have changed their views at least once, that's the whole point of the red pill analogy.

Of course the blue pill view is not the default inborn view, it is simply a mainstream view in modern Western culture. The red pill view is a status quo in Eastern European, Middle Eastern and Asian countries.

IckyStickyPoo · 2017-12-10T23:49:05+00:00

The term "cognitive dissonance" is used on PPD way too much (mostly by the reds). So you're already fitting right in.

I love things that change and challenge my beliefs. But here in PPD, we're a heap of anonymous users. I'm not about to change my beliefs based on something an anonymous user says. There's a lot of anger and desperation behind the theories and stories, and although I empathise, I'm not so weak-minded as to get caught up in that.

For me, it's not unwillingness to change beliefs so much as not wanting to base beliefs on personal experiences. I've had a lot of shitty personal experiences with men in the past, and have personally known women who've had shitty experiences with men - and those experiences actually form the bulk of my experiences of men. BUT, when I look around at men in general, I don't see shittiness, and therefore, I think my personal experiences are just circumstantial.

Likewise, I'm hardly going to be swayed by theories of women by men who've had shitty experiences with women. (The reds)

But something I do get here is exposure to experiences I didn't know about. For example, I admit I did not know of the existence of "incels". I'd thought any man who wanted sex would be able to get it, sooner or later. And I didn't realise how weirdly some groups of men think about women (the reds). So, it's an education. Helps me to understand where some of the anger against women comes from (even if I don't agree it has a reasonable basis).

SabirahNova · 2017-12-11T02:51:38+00:00

I think if you come to Reddit without a formed opinion things can definitely change. I originally had NO idea what any of this stuff was and was by default very blue pill pro feminist career oriented woman. Since discovering all three subs I’ve picked up A LOT of red pill idealogy and have really changed the way I view relationships—I’ve put less emphasis on being “strong” “independent” etc and picked up more RPW traits. My views on sex also drastically changed and it ultimately lead to me breaking up with my boyfriend who has a cuck fetish and after the RP I couldn’t respect him or his fetish anymore (even though we had never acted on it). I have a strong disdain for third wave feminism and no longer consider myself one. So I think you can change your mind just be willing to flip your life upside down.

Drippyskippy · 2017-12-10T23:30:28+00:00

Overall I agree with you that the majority of people are stuck in their bias. Most of these people stick to their echo chambers which is why I think PPD has slightly different people. I'm sure most people are here for the entertainment or for the joy of debate, but I do believe there are some people here to listen to different perspectives.

This bias is introduced at your birth and continues to manifest itself through every possible aspect of your life, be it your parents, friends, geographical location, quality of education, political affiliation, race, etc.

I started out as a very left BP liberal due to my up bringing. After experiencing my share of man hating from my own side (feminists), I decided to stop believing everything my biased sources told me and started seeking out the "other side". I think the important thing is I made the decision to challenge my beliefs and by doing this I think it became easier to accept arguments that went against my closely held beliefs. I didn't entirely switch sides politically, but I became much more moderate and much closer to being an independent. I "changed sides" (though I didn't realize I was BP until I found TRP) in terms of my pill color, but only consider myself red pilled in the sense of the matrix analogy.

I would say I'm mainly here on PPD to make sure that the pendulum I set in motion doesn't swing too far to the other side. At the same time I do enjoy a good debate though and radfems do provide me with good laughs and entertainment. Its odd that the thing that I dislike the most (feminism) set me on this path to becoming a more well rounded and informed person. That is my boring transition, but it shows that its possible to change your views.

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AstuteBlackMan · 2017-12-10T21:35:14+00:00

Nah. People do change.

Rockase13 · 2017-12-10T22:31:46+00:00

Of course people aren’t going to change their views because of some random strangers on an anonymous forum.

newName543456 · 2017-12-10T23:54:05+00:00

My BP views have been changed because of creating cognitive dissonance while observing reality.

RP views somehow don't create this problem...

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2017-12-11T00:22:35+00:00

yeah probably

but its not different than the ego-trip purps get from thinking they are the enlightened middle group

Mystique94 · 2017-12-11T02:50:13+00:00

I think it depends on the person.

I used to consider myself BP. After reading a decent amount of trp I'm not sure what I consider myself anymore. I co-opt a lot of their self-improvement advice such as to lift, read and educate myself, not to make excuses for failure etc (as a woman lol). And I don't think trp is wrong to view sexual interactions as a marketplace. Where I really differ is the viewpoint trp takes about the nature of women and their value. AWALT and traditional gender roles, women should be submissive etc.

So I guess I've changed from thinking that trp is totally insane and abnormal to thinking it has a lot of helpful, no-bullshit advice with some unfortunate toxic masculinity built in.

I also think that because BP does no have any central tenets the way that rp does, it is a lot harder to confirm or explain phenomena from a "BP" lens. Trpers will say that BP is just "the culture at large" but I think this is a false dichotomy. There might be one primary, easy-to-read way to view something from a RP lens leading to confirmation bias, whereas there really is no single BP way of seeing things. At least this has been my personal experience.

blackedoutfast · 2017-12-11T04:13:05+00:00

i think most of us realize we're not going to change the opinion of the other people participating in these debates. redpillers are going to stay red, bluepillers are going to stay blue.

we're really trying to win the hearts and minds of the lurkers.

that said, there are a surprising number of people on all sides who do genuinely debate the issues in good faith and will admit when their views have been changed. that's actually very cool.

Rockase13 · 2017-12-11T04:20:39+00:00

If you want people top be open minded to see your point-of-view them shouldn't the same be true about you maybe song theirs?

Maybe red pills don't change their mind because they have seen the results. Just because you don't like the methodology doesn't mean the results aren't astronomical from where these men started from.

Thinking otherwise means you're just as narrow minded as you claim them to be.

MisterJose · 2017-12-11T04:41:17+00:00

Here's the way I approach gender debates: I KNOW I'm biased in certain ways. My theory is that the best medicine for what ails the gender divide is mutual empathy. You tell me your experience has sucked, I hear you. Mine has kinda sucked too, and I try to express it in a way that can be understandable.

The problem I run into is that the 'other side' won't go along with it. The feminist women I talk to are usually completely convinced of their victimhood, and it's gone as far as me laying out a whole paradigm and explanation and asking, "Doesn't that really explain things?" and getting, "Yes, it would really explain things...but it's not true because reasons." Plus, if I'm on a feminist subreddit, I'm going to get deleted/banned for breaching the bubble with ideas that don't conform. It often feels like arguing with r/TheDonald.

Then only acceptable answer I get seems to be, "Change and think exactly like us." Well, I can't do that. Accept me, and I can accept you back, but I don't and can't think like you, value the same things as you, etc. because I don't see the world in the same way.

I mean, what you're saying is true of a whole lot more than just red and blue pillers. You're basically talking about humans in general. But people DO change their minds. You can't save everyone, but people who work at changing minds and work through the frustration do see some result eventually.

rainisthelife · 2017-12-11T09:58:40+00:00

If anything, this sub has actually made me more blue pill. I used to be somewhere in the middle before, but now I lean more blue.

That’s an example of a change for you.

InformalCriticism · 2017-12-11T16:06:46+00:00

So, take your sampling sources: people who visit this site. Not only people who visit this site, but people who, on the aggregate, attempt to self identify with their flair. And then also people who then go out of their way to argue and comment on various topics.

This is a very specific type of person you're talking about. We are on the fringes of the Internet friend, it attracts all type of scum, villainy, and virtue.

That being said, there are more reasons than you suggest not to change one's view. I suffer the affliction you describe, but not from a lifetime of predispositions that shape my world view. I came to TRP after my world views were shattered and my life upended due to the foolishness of ideas that were spoon fed to me by a feminist public education system and a backward looking religious conservatism making me easy prey for predatory women.

/u/Electra_Cute is right, there are some changes in perspective, but it's not radical; the process is slow, and I've been told it can be seen in my own comments. Some of the stuff I said when I was in the anger phase is hardly defensible, and my conceptualizations about TRP evolved to fit the world views that I had to adjust after the nut shot life decided to dole out.

Now, to the point in the referenced thread, TRP actually does rely on the male experience in order to handle female nature. The AWALT mentality is, in effect, utilizing solipsistic advantages, same with abundance mentality (as long as you believe you have options, you will behave like you have options).

What /u/BiggerDThanYou pretends is that this somehow invalidates or humiliates TRP theory, when it helps solidify its legitimacy and verifies its connection to reality.

It's brilliant, really. These solipsistic tactics are based on how women actually think and act, even if the "tool types" are used as fodder to distance the subject from the object. In fact, TRP just fights fire with fire. Some might even say it "brings us down to the female level of thought". I'm not saying there's a hierarchy, but there's a clear difference between how women think from how men think. Women have manipulated men for eons. This is the first real attempt outside of physical force that men have devised in order to get what they want out of women, and it's vilified, while women read Cosmo for ways to get what they want out of men and no one bats an eye.

Now, are you going to have Oxford style debates here? No. But, every once in a while you'll bump into someone who cares about the truth as much as you do, and you'll realize the true minority - not just on PPD - but, in life, are good people, and good people who are concerned with the truth.

sadomasochrist · 2017-12-12T14:17:00+00:00

I spent two years trying to disprove TRP and instead came to realize literally none of it is false.

That's turning a skeptic into a believer.

PaperStreetVilla · 2017-12-12T21:52:11+00:00

The old adeage was "Men are the gatekeepers of commitment, women gatekeepers of sex"

Roosh challenged it, mens commitment is a Monopolistic competition. Women just don't try until late in their 20s to settle down (generally)

minds are changed all the time. All you need to do is find something that enough men experience to confirm it. Logical diatribes are not going to do it.

washington_breadstix · 2017-12-14T06:42:14+00:00

Even if the views expressed here don't actually change often, there's merit in discussing them and improving your ability to flesh out your reasoning, right? I would rather be a red-leaning guy who keeps his reasoning and critical thinking sharp than a red-leaning guy who just goes "feminizm sux brah."

aretheyaliens · 2017-12-10T20:23:59+00:00

I've always been a purple piller, but lately I've "blueshifted" a bit. I think women really do have it worse than men on average, and I accept the fact that as a male I am privileged, but I question whether trying to paint men as the villainous sex is a constructive way to get to equality.

There's really no shame in being privileged anyway. A lot of privileged people are very righteous, and a lot of unprivileged people are dicks.

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