Q4ALL: Is it true that women want a man who is a "natural" both (1) physically and (2) behaviorally?

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2017-06-20T05:24:04+00:00

I'm going to ignore your questions and give you the info I think you're actually looking for. You know what I enjoy? Bananas. Especially perfectly ripe bananas, little cold. Yum! You know what I fucking hate? Banana runts. It's reminiscent of the real thing but not at all the same, gross and cloyingly sweet.

RP isn't gross because it's like the real thing and we don't wanna be fooled. It's gross because it's not like the real thing. (Disclaimer: know what? Maybe these sad, ranting dudes really are undetectable IRL. Maybe my fun, confident, attractive male friends and my assertive, male feminist husband are all actually reading and posting FR's on the Red Pill. Who knows? I dunno how the RP guys seem IRL. Online, by their own testimony, they sound oily and sad and desperate and old. So I'm gonna label them banana runts and do a hard pass.)

Joseph_the_Carpenter · 2017-06-20T16:50:24+00:00

There is some nuance to the "natural" argument. Women don't want a work-in-progress or a project guy. They want the guy that's already done the work, got to the end, looks good already, etc etc. The work that went into it never enters their minds, only the present matters.

I have never in my life met a naturally shredded man, and I have met great men. There are only men who exercise.

Il128 · 2017-06-20T05:14:36+00:00

Women aren't a monolith. Rather than spend a paragraph explaining this... Women's taste in men are actually quite varied but there is an aesthetically pleasing male form that will generally be pleasing to most women.

Symmetry. Healthy fresh look. A manly face (more square with prominent chin) and hair (facial and head of). Height (Taller the better usually). It doesn't matter to most women how these traits are "obtained", genetic or otherwise.

As far as the social aspect is concerned. Just being a leader is often enough. Everyone follows a good leader including women.

Butt-Factory · 2017-06-20T04:33:24+00:00

I think pretty much everyone appreciates authenticity in a person. I certainly prefer to surround myself with genuine and honest people, romantic or otherwise. This seems like the biggest no brainer out there. I mean, would you rather spend time with a nice person or someone pretending to be a nice person? A brave person or someone who's all talk?

Even if it's not always flattering, I always enjoy getting to know someone on a real level.

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Eastuss · 2017-06-20T07:01:04+00:00

1: Physically speaking, is it true that women really want a naturally shredded man? (Because it signals good genes?)

When they say naturally muscular, they mean tall, wide boned, wide shoulders, with some muscles. It's not much about the muscles.

2: Psychologically speaking, is it true that women really want a naturally socially/sexually smooth man? (Because it signals good genes?)

Yes, they want men that magically learned to behave socially without ever experimenting. A man that needed to learn and experiment in order to get along women? what a looser.

3: How many naturally shredded men do you know? Do you have stories about this that shed light on the extent to which natural shredded-ness exists?

That doesn't exist, there are people with fantastic genetics, but you don't get shredded by just doing some sport here and there, shredded people produce lot of effort and women will always under estimate how much dedication that represents.

4: How many naturally socially/sexually smooth men do you know? Do you have stories about this that shed light on the extent to which natural social/sexual smoothness exists?

Some people are naturally chill and confident, nobody understand female psychology without some work, even women don't understand themselves without putting in efforts.

In short, women will always downplay what effort it takes for a man to increase his SMV. Women will always downplay how detrimental social rejection is on social intelligence and behaviour for the vast majority of men. If you're attractive, your positive social interactions with women will explode and you'll acquire experience and knowledge quickly, if you're average/shit looking, you'll have to multiply encounters in order to get few positive social interactions with women. Things don't just come off magically.

Love8Death · 2017-06-20T08:28:04+00:00

Women just like men that at least try to look attractive and try to not be awkward in social settings. Have you ever gone out and met someone and asked yourself "I wonder if this encounter was pleasant because he's a natural or because he's been trying real hard to be pleasant company?" Probably fucking not, right? Because that would be stupid. Women don't ask themselves those kinds of dumb questions either.

jackandjill22 · 2017-06-20T11:53:25+00:00

They're just saying all this to wind up red pill people. There's no real uumph behind it. They're trying to disqualify them. Obviously you won't be in good shape without doing the requisite physical activity.

And there isn't such thing as someone totally natural socially. Either you pick it up or you learn it explicitly, the outcome needn't be different. How to Make Friends and Influence People has sold a bajillion copies, and that is basically learning how to manipulate people. There is a massive market for that kind of thing, and most decent managers out there will study that kind of thing.

So I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

nyjl · 2017-06-20T11:58:16+00:00

who eats junk food and never exercises but still stays shredded

myth

Love8Death · 2017-06-20T13:30:58+00:00

Yes, because if women can't tell how you ended up some way, they just feel like it was natural, and see you as even more superior and awe inspiring. Men do this too, but not as badly, since men tend to focus on their feelings a bit less.

MarriedLifter · 2017-06-20T14:32:02+00:00

the problem is that if a woman sees a man with perfect 6 pack abs she doesn't know if those abs are due to perfect genetics and the guy has them naturally with zero effort, or if the guy's natural state is a pot belly and the abs are the product of years of hard work and discipline. the guys make look the same and fuck the same and make her tingle in the same ways but if she gets knocked up by the hard work abs guy, it's very possible that her children will be potbelly low-SMV sexual failures.

Honestly, natural abs aren't that useful, in the big scheme of things. Sure, I suppose your kids might be a bit hotter.

But do you know what's really useful in life? The kind of hard-core determination and self-discipline that you need to build abs the hard way. That kind of work ethic can make you successful in life.

The guy with natural abs at 21 might turn out to be a useless loser. Or he might not. It's gamble. But the guy with a well-thought out training program that he sticks to religiously? He's got his shit together, he has goals, and knows how to work hard to get what he wants.

So, genetically speaking, do you want your kids to have good abs? Or do you want them to be genetically predisposed to ambition and hard work?

speltspelt · 2017-06-20T14:59:36+00:00

Evolutionarily speaking, women want reproductively successful children and the full investment of their partners. They do not want partners who are reproductively successful /at their expense/. Lots of manosphere delusions on that point.

GridReXX · 2017-06-20T23:06:15+00:00

Only "naturally shredded" men I know are naturally skinny men who look like bean poles with abs.

Not my ideal.

Every man I know with a great body had to work for it.

Regarding social intelligence and sexiness. I prefer a natural. Only because those are the actions that turn me on.

Someone who works hard at it has to continually work hard to turn me on. Which may be a lot of pressure on him.

A dude who is naturally charismatic and naturally exudes sexy masculine energy doesn't have to work as hard to turn me on which is less stressful for him and probably better for the relationship as a whole imo.

OfSpock · 2017-06-20T06:28:42+00:00

You can't really fake SMV. No one gets a six pack by doing nothing.

What annoys women about PUA is that it encourages men to hit on women who are clearly not interested and to keep doing so. Whether this is their message or not, the end result is that attractive women get hit on by a lot more guys they aren't, weren't and never will sleep with. Because its a numbers game to them.

Hairbrainer · 2017-06-20T11:54:46+00:00

There is no such thing as natural six pack abs or being naturally shredded. Anybody who thinks they know anyone like this is delusional. It's not possible. You don't get muscles from doing nothing.

BiggerDthanYou · 2017-06-20T12:27:27+00:00

Come on ADHD guy. Leave this place for a month and go to /r/conspiracy

You will soon notice that even the most far out crazy dudes over there use more sources, are more logical and less delusional than half the TRP stuff you are posting here.

This whole post you were quoting is nothing more than the delusional ramblings of someone that thinks that he's a scientist just because he knows how to spell Wikipedia.

the real reason women hate TRP (and PUA) is that it allows men who aren't naturally high SMV to become high SMV men through hard work and discipline (TRP) or to simply mimic them (PUA).

Spell it out with me: de-lu-sio-nal

Delusional. That's all one can say about this.

This has no relation to reality at all (women actually love it when men are motivated and determined on working on improving themselves) and completely ignores the fact that women hate TRP because it all just sounds like the misogynistic ramblings of some angry, hurt and bitter fedora neckbeards.

the problem is that if a woman sees a man with perfect 6 pack abs she doesn't know if those abs are due to perfect genetics and the guy has them naturally with zero effort

Every woman knows that abs take work.

And again TRP completely misses the point here. Women may complain about guys that spend all their free time in the gym, but that doesn't mean that they expect abs without any effort. They just want a guy that has an active lifestyle that does some sports. Abs should come naturally with his lifestyle; his life shouldn't be about abs solely.

the instinctive desire for naturally sexy men goes hand in hand with an instinctive disgust for men who are faking it.

That just shows that the writer has low emotional intelligence and can't read vibes. Someone who's naturally confident and funny is simply acting different than someone who's solely faking it.

that's why "just be yourself" is such common advice given to unsuccessful low SMV. men who hear this tend to take it at face value and think the woman is telling them how to get laid more. but really, the woman is telling the man to not be fake because she doesn't want him to fool anyone into thinking he has high SMV.

Or it's just because she doesn't like fakers that pretend to be just like her and to be into every band she's listening to. "just be yourself" is actually good advice if you understand it as "be confident in yourself" and "don't pretend to be someone who you aren't"

women don't WANT men to figure out how to get laid. what women really want is for men to be clueless and transparent

Baseless assumptions. Especially because women are pretty vocal about what they want and despite what the manosphere claims it's usually not just a lie.

Plus "just be yourself" doesn't mean "don't ever improve". One can start improving himself without having to present some fake personality.

this is also why so many TRP haters assume that any RP man must be a complete loser basement dwelling incel misogynists

Or because they and incels sound exactly the same. If someone talks just like an angry misogynist, why shouldn't we call it out?

And because literally everyone (about 90% of men) knows that muscles are more attractive than fat, but somehow TRPers think that most other guys are just as clueless as them. If someone needs to be told that social skills exist, that showers and good clothes are important, that women aren't all just perfect angels that would never lie, etc rather than thinking that he must be socially reclusive well what else do you expect we would think of them?

this is why they will go to such lengths to absolutely destroy and doxx TRP members. it's not a rational disagreement with TRP, it's a very deep instinctive disgust based on evolutionary pressures.

Yes, just like making fun of chemtrails, bigfoot and scientology means that we secretly believe that they are right and just are afraid of the truth.

But guess what we actually don't believe the way TRP describes women, the lives of women, their dreams and their thoughts.

women are scared of TRP because it works.

Or because they are scared because society has already assumed all women to be manipulative, yet childlike and illogical, inherently submissive and incapable of making decisions for thousands of years. And because they might have fallen for an manipulative dark triad man when they were 14 and thus don't like the idea of dishonest guys preying on easily manipulated "plates".

Physically speaking, is it true that women really want a naturally shredded man? (Because it signals good genes?)

Psychologically speaking, is it true that women really want a naturally socially/sexually smooth man? (Because it signals good genes?)

Rather because it signals "not a lazy loner".

And despite what TRPers claim women actually don't care if they see how the sausage is made. If you've been a loser a few years ago, but now are cool and fit she isn't going to think "but he wasn't always cool and fit", but rather "wow he's hot now". Most people were shy and awkward at one point and there are plenty of late bloomers for whom it hasn't been a problem that they weren't always smooth.

How many naturally shredded men do you know? Do you have stories about this that shed light on the extent to which natural shredded-ness exists?

I guess everything from construction workers to farmers to guys that regularly do sports would fall under "naturally" fit.

It's just any guys that don't have to put any extra effort into it because being fit is just a side effect of their lifestyle. Their work or their hobbies give them a great body without them having to talk about the gym all the time.

There's no one that's just naturally shredded. They still put effort into it, but for them it just comes naturally because that's just what they want to do and not something they just do to become attractive.

One reason for why they are better is because they won't become fat and lazy once they are married.

How many naturally socially/sexually smooth men do you know? Do you have stories about this that shed light on the extent to which natural social/sexual smoothness exists?

That's most people. Having social skills is normal for humans.

The biggest hurdle for most guys is that they are too shy, but most don't need a guide on how to handle social situations.

Love8Death · 2017-06-20T12:30:02+00:00

That's not why people hate TRP. Do you guys really can't see why TRP is hated?

RockinSocksII · 2017-06-20T13:09:18+00:00

I don't know what other women want, but I don't care. You know what does signal good genes? Hard work.
Again, don't care.
I don't know. I doubt they would ever tell me if it was "unnatural".
See 3.

[deleted] · 2017-06-20T14:01:15+00:00

its funny because women put on fake up every day but as soon as a guy puts on elevated insoles he is the devil

wattwatty · 2017-06-20T14:34:09+00:00

The word "sprezzatura" is about 500 years old. If you think it doesn't apply here, you are a literalist sperg, incapable of generalizing any concept. (That is a trait that is certainly off-putting.) There is a reason this word is still in common parlance.

[deleted] · 2017-06-20T14:36:55+00:00

Someone who had to work hard to achieve success gets respected.

Someone who has had everything fall into their lap without effort will most likely shit the bed when life gets tough.

People who think long term will always take Someone 1 over Someone 2.

WhiskersNT · 2017-06-20T15:01:57+00:00

Every person ever who has any noticeably degree of skill in anything has worked for it, the people who are "naturals" are generally either (1) liars or (2) people who enjoy the "work" of developing their skills

The only time someone will be identified as a fake is if they are low skill and you see them practicing, and yeah, of course that kills the fantasy

IamTheWalkingMenu · 2017-06-20T16:56:56+00:00

Why would I be hostile to someone trying to get in the best shape possible? Is anyone "naturally" shredded unless they are a manual laborer?

[deleted] · 2017-06-20T16:58:54+00:00

No one is naturally any of those things. It's possible to be predisposed to become one with work, but it's not natural. If it were there'd be babies born like that. What a nightmare of a pregnancy.

I'd say those things are more attractive though because they send a larger message about the person. Being fit takes work, being good at conversing takes work, just like anything else. I personally don't want someone that's overweight, because to me that says that particular person has issues. Just as it's not natural to be overly muscular, it's not to be fat either. A person who sucks at talking or is awkward is the same way, there's cause for that somewhere. Would I classify either of those people as having bad genes, not necessarily because both being fat and being a crap conversationalist can be fixed. Presented with those problems gone and they'd have just as much chance as the rest of the people with those skills.

[deleted] · 2017-06-20T17:20:22+00:00

You don't get shredded and muscular naturally. Everyone works for this.

Anyone with good genes can destroy their physique through bad habits, and it only takes a few months to do it.

[deleted] · 2017-06-20T18:04:38+00:00

Yes. Naturals are more likely to pass beneficial genetic traits onto potential offspring. This is a no-brainer.

SpaceWhiskey · 2017-06-20T18:35:28+00:00

I think you're missing the point. Humans crave authenticity, yes. But there is a difference between someone who reads advice online and uses it to genuinely improve themselves and someone who reads advice and uses it to craft a fake personality.

Also, no one is born shredded. Slim, yes, ripped, no. No one thinks a guy with a gym body magically doesn't go to the gym and if anyone does believe that they're too stupid to bother with, like someone who thinks getting a tattoo will transfer to their baby.

IIHotelYorba · 2017-06-20T23:11:03+00:00

Yes. Trying to be better in any way to get women is qualifying yourself aka pedestalization. It comes across as if she is better than you, and that violates hypergamy- she needs you to be better than her to be attracted, and frankly, for the social order to be upheld.

Beta men using "tricks" or something that seems like that to fuck the women alpha men are supposed to, to women, is like stealing, or rape. Their pussy practically has a monetary value on it, it is like a treasure to them. And by that I'm not talking about the fear of trauma that comes with rape, I'm talking about some sort of value that they all know they have and don't want to lose.

A "natural" man aka Chad is the guy who is "supposed" to get that value because she will get something greater in the exchange, aka hypergamy.

eliechallita · 2017-06-21T18:35:58+00:00

I think you're massively missing the point: Women don't hate TRP or PUA because they blur the line between genetic superiority and hard work.

They hate them because both ideas view women as simplistic organisms that can and should be skillfully manipulated like they had a user manual, and encourage outright lying and manipulation in many cases.

dicklord_airplane · 2017-06-22T19:37:21+00:00

this got me thinking about a difference i've seen between men and women over the years while practicing my hobbies: i've noticed that women are for more likely to make comments like "you're so naturally talented" while men are more likely to say "you must have put in a lot of practice to learn that". it's a massive generalization that doesn't apply to every single person, obviously, but it's a noticeable trend.

i work as a ski and snowboard instructor. snowboarding is as natural as walking to me because i've put 17 years of practice into it. when my female students are impressed, i'll often get comments like "you're so naturally balanced, i could never do that" while guys tend to say things like "i'll need another few years to snowboard like that." women tend to see my skill as intrinsic to me as an individual, as if i was born this way or destined to be this way, which isn't true at all.

i like to spin poi, too. (yeah, i'm yuppie raver scum. shit's awesome.) i get those same comments from women all the time, but far less often from men. girls tend to act like i must have picked up poi and started spinning some sick shit on my first day because i'm fucking amazeballs, but i make sure to impress upon them that my skill is a result of hours upon hours of practice. guys often ask how long i've been spinning lights, but girls never ask - unless they are my teacher.

how do i say this - girls are far less impressed with the fact that i've put hundreds of hours into honing my skills than they are with the results. to girls, it's more magical to think that my skill is intrinsic. guys, on the other hand, seem to be more impressed with the process i went through to attain my skill.

that's my two cents. girls aren't impressed with the process guys took to become awesome and attractive. sometimes the magic is dispelled when they become aware that a guy had to struggle to become great, and that he wasn't always great... which is why most women hate the idea of PUA and whatnot. it's so much more magical and charming to think that a guy is just naturally, effortlessly attractive, which is why PUA an the red pill so often stress that you've gotta act like your success and skill is effortless and intrinsic.

jackandjill22 · 2017-06-20T04:23:09+00:00

You just made a thread asking the same question a day ago

ppdthrowawai · 2017-06-20T11:01:45+00:00

Women think they want a natural because they dont like the idea that they're being decieved. Holding this position helps them to say that learning how to flirt with women is somehow less authentic if you read it from "misogynistic forums" vs learning IRL. Its nothing more than a way to point fingers arpumd here. In the end there's very little difference in how you got to be the person you are if you end up the same.

The real truth is that people who learn from the internet tend to have the "academic" part down and lack in the "clinical" application due to lack of real world experience. They know what to do in theory but have never done it IRL, thus appearing inauthentic when they try. Itll go away with experience if you practice and nobody will give a damn where your social skills came from.

wub1234 · 2017-06-20T11:22:17+00:00

In the overwhelming majority of cases, no.
To a large extent, but different women have a completely different interpretation of what constitutes an attractive personality and demeanour.
This just seems like a daft question. You only get that sort of physique through absolutely tonnes of hard work, and even many guys won't attain it with hard work, and more still won't be noticeably muscular unless they take their shirts off. Going to the gym to make yourself more attractive is one of the biggest wastes of time that I've ever witnessed, especially in a society in which just by virtue of not being overweight you're already well above average.
There was one guy I used to know at school and college who was pretty good.

Title	Q4ALL: Is it true that women want a man who is a "natural" both (1) physically and (2) behaviorally?
Author	HopefulAboutADHD
Upvotes	8
Comments	159
Date	June 20, 2017 4:22 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6ibran/q4all_is_it_true_that_women_want_a_man_who_is_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4all-is-it-true-that-women-want-a-man-who-is-a.267489 https://theredarchive.com/post/267489

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