Q4RP: If men are naturally masculine then why is TRP needed? Shouldn't "just be yourself" be enough?

ProbablyBelievesIt · 2017-04-26T13:01:03+00:00

[deleted]

ppdthrowawai · 2017-04-26T13:04:24+00:00

This is a dumb gotcha type post. Men are naturally masculine in that their sexual dimorphism is generally polar to womens. They are bell curves with a small amount of overlap. Honestly, what is there to "get"?

despisedlove2 · 2017-04-26T12:33:31+00:00

In this age of the war on boys, mass misdiagnosis of ADHD, fiscal war in college, broken homes, etc., boys aren't being raised to be men.

IIHotelYorba · 2017-04-26T14:47:46+00:00

If people have to learn to exercise and most people are fat, why is it good/natural to exercise?

Being alpha is in men's nature but so is being beta in a way. Its called learned helplessness and may be part of epigenetics.

There are a lot of potential factors. We start medicating boys and sticking them in boring rote learning from a young age to punish boyishness. We berate them with rape statistics and litanys about objectification to beat their natural sexual feelings out of them.

Society WANTS self hating meek feminist betamales as they do a lot of work and receive little compensations. Also human psychology and the social hierarchy makes it frightening to challenge people hat seem higher up than you.

Returnofthemack3 · 2017-04-26T17:58:34+00:00

oh look another shit post by a blooper, color me surprised. Funny how they undermine the impacts of culture and social conditioning when it suits them.

BiggerDthanYou · 2017-04-26T14:14:08+00:00

If women are strong and independent, why did women need the womens rights movement, laws to make sure there is no discrimination in the work place, and so on?

FairlyNaive · 2017-04-26T12:57:23+00:00

Different men are masculine to varying degrees. Those who score lower want to get laid as well.

Transmigratory · 2017-04-26T13:33:28+00:00

If you believe in pure nature, of course.

The notion is that society conditions them to suppress masculine behaviour which doesn't fit a feminine PC narrative. Hence "be yourself" is more like an execution of said conditioning.

One of the many things you never understood about TRP? I'm going to hazard a guess and say like the many here who don't, you're defo one of those who didn't try. I.E. no-one believes that you made an attempt beyond jumping the blue-wagon.

caesarfecit · 2017-04-26T14:02:32+00:00

This is one of my opinions that's somewhat heterodox from RP. I hold that gender (on a psychological level) is neither discrete states nor an amorphous spectrum. It's a bell curve.

Both genders have certain levels of testosterone and estrogen, both of which have observable effects on brain development. But this isn't like flipping a switch. Brain chemistry is a dynamic chemical equilibrium, which means the relative levels of masculinity and femininity in any given individual will vary due to a variety of factors, both innate and environmental. It will even change over time, as men's testosterone levels drop as they get older.

Now when I say bell curve, that's not quite accurate. Gender is really an M-shaped bell curve. This means that most men and most women you'll find on one of these peaks.

Now enter feminism. Feminists have a stated goal of destroying gender roles. But they had a hard time telling women not to be women, so they focused their attention on men and "toxic masculinity". As a result, the male part of the bell curve has been flattening and shifting back towards the mean. The unintended consequence of this is that most normal women have hard a harder and harder time forming and maintaining attraction towards modern men, as they have become more androgynous and less distinct. Sexual selection is disruptive selection, and by doing their best to undermine masculinity, feminists have undermined healthy heterosexual relations.

Now enter RP. RP has a stated goal of restoring masculinity so that men can get laid and form stable relationships again. The problem is, RP's solution is to roll back gender norms to the days when both men and women were strongly encouraged to conform to quasi-arbitrary stereotypes of what men and women are supposed to be. This is a mistake and an error in thinking, encouraged by the complementary errors of the feminists.

Unfortunately, I suspect this thread isn't really being made in good faith and is really a hypocritical attempt to trap RPers in one of their own logical inconsistencies.

[deleted] · 2017-04-26T14:19:15+00:00

On the one hand it's male nature to be a masculine alpha,

Source?

on the other hand men need to be told how to be masculine because they are all docile betas.

Source?

Fontess · 2017-04-26T14:24:49+00:00

men are naturally masculine but its repressed.

just like women are naturally feminine but its discouraged.

OurThrownAwayDreams · 2017-04-26T15:43:15+00:00

Not all men are born tough, hardened, and masculine.

Just look at the word "hardened", by definition it implies that the person was soft to begin with. Look at babies and young boys, they are soft and have not been conditioned to fill society's expectations of what qualifies them to be a man, both biologically and socially speaking.

Just being born with testosterone doesn't make you masculine. It's what testosterone pushes you to DO, your actions, that defines your masculinity. Testosterone makes young boys play rough, it gets them into fights, it makes them look at girls. Every little bit of action a boy does fueled by testosterone pushes him more to the masculine side.

For some men, they might have been inhibited during the critical periods of their youth. They may not be into stereotypical masculine things like sports, competitions, risks taking, etc. So for those men, being themselves will not bring out the "masculine" side of them.

Nature gave men the vessel to become masculine, but it is nurture that drives them to be the masculine man our culture recognizes.

says_harsh_things · 2017-04-26T16:47:39+00:00

Men are naturally masculine but we are told that behavior is not acceptable.

Trp says 'despite what people say, that behavior is acceptable.'

winterrider · 2017-04-26T17:35:11+00:00

I am not RP but I am going to answer. At their core men are masculine and in past centuries they were much more masculine than they are today.

The reason, today, they can't simply be themselves is because most of them have been so brainwashed and misprogrammed that they have lost touch with their masculine self.

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BPremium · 2017-04-26T13:13:52+00:00

Cause a shit load of drugs, broken homes, and laws/rules/and regulations that punish masculine behavior from womb to tomb arr currently in place.

BiggerDthanYou · 2017-04-26T13:43:44+00:00

Cats naturally kill birds, but their parents still show them how when they're young. And these birds naturally fly, but you gotta let us kick 'em out of the nest when we think they're ready.

[deleted] · 2017-04-26T14:36:15+00:00

Bad parenting. My dad and his dad never had to be taught how to be masculine because they were shoved into a shitty place and had to fight for a decent life. I've always been naturally masculine but before TRP I was applying masculinity in the wrong ways

gasparddelanuit · 2017-04-26T16:31:57+00:00

If men are naturally masculine then why is TRP needed? Shouldn't "just be yourself" be enough?

It's because entire societies are emasculating men, with the complicity of other men. It would be hard for any individual to compete against systemic brainwashing from birth, the violence of the state, the hegemonic influence of established institutions and mob rule.

A man is only human after all. He experiences doubt and second-guesses himself. However, he also experiences cognitive dissonance and may detect that something is wrong, but be unable to put his finger on or articulate it. That's where consciousness raising and shared experiences come in. Knowledge is power and there is power in numbers, hence the manosphere.

In a sense, men's current experience and cognitive dissonance is equivalent to the experience of women, coming out of the 1950s, that Betty Freidan identified as "the problem without a name" in The Feminine Mystique. That started the women’s movement in the 1960s and 2nd Wave feminism. I think the challenge for men in current times, however, is far greater. There is far less sympathy and far less scope to affect societal change. Nevertheless, each man can decide to take control of his own life and to some degree set his own terms and conditions, hence MGTOW, TRP and RP thinking generally.

nicolesashacarey · 2017-04-26T17:49:41+00:00

[deleted]

Entropy-7 · 2017-04-27T04:36:10+00:00

But society has been built with the female imperitive and it neuters men.

Entropy-7 · 2017-04-27T04:45:09+00:00

This "just be yourself" is a construct within the society that we are given. And it is a disservice to 99% of men.

daveofmars · 2017-04-27T13:37:13+00:00

"Just be yourself" doesn't mean, and has never meant, "don't conform to society's expectations".

bala-key · 2017-04-26T13:15:07+00:00

if men are naturally masculine

They aren't. They are raised to put women on a pedestal and take what they say at face value.

They are raised in an environment that shames and ridicules physical power, strength, aggression, competitiveness and sexually dominant attitudes.

In the West, men are bred into supplicant, out of shape betas.

SetConsumes · 2017-04-26T16:36:07+00:00

After all it should make you more alpha and masculine if you actually stop trying to conform to societies standards and become your true self.

Yes, self actualization, which is done by developing your masculinity.

Yet society says masculinity isn't real or known or doesn't really matter, has removed nearly all positive masculine role models from the media, says masculinity is toxic, demonizes the sexual and violent sides of masculinity which are at the heart of masculinity, says being unmasculine or effeminate is okay for a man to be.

Then you're wondering why some men are confused? Why they suppress themselves, hate themselves, don't want to masculine, don't understand what it means to be masculine, don't see the value of masculinity?

Men can suppress themselves and not develop their masculinity because of their beliefs, and those beliefs are put into them first and foremost by society starting at a young age.

Parents play a huge role too, mothers can be overbearing especially if the husband does not lead the family, being raised with sisters can cause the man to be overly socialized and feminine valued.

Which is what I've tried to get you and /u/skinnysweat to see before.

Why TRP exists. And then why any masculine man should ever tell another man to not develop their masculinity, to choose not to if they want, or that gender traits don't really matter.

[deleted] · 2017-04-26T15:47:10+00:00

Hyper-masculinity. When they say alpha they mean hyper-masculine. Now you can see why it needs to be taught.

[deleted] · 2017-04-26T16:57:39+00:00

It is much about being yourself, however a lot is about appropriate expression; be the best version of yourself. Both genders go through a learning process for the correct expression of their respective behaviors. Expressing how you feel is important, doing so in a contextually appropriate manner is, in my opinion, even more so.

For example, tampering and appropriately expressing aggression for a man in an appropriate way is a life-long learning process. It often makes the difference between the attractive behavior assertive versus the behavior interpreted as less attractive brutish. Over the course of their lives people learn what the appropriate expression of their emotions look like in different contexts. I know that saying, f- you motherf- die slow, is an appropriate expression of my dissatisfaction to my close male friends. They often laugh at my dissatisfaction and continue to press my buttons. Saying that to a woman will almost always end in a considerably less favorable reaction.

TRP to me has been a part of my journey of learning about myself and what appropriate behavior looks like.

[deleted] · 2017-04-26T17:25:34+00:00

I never went to trp to learn game.

I went there years ago because it was a male space where I could vent and the only place where my views on single moms and marriage were accepted.

Lately it's turned into a shit show so I've been hanging out with some of the mgtows.

phantasic79 · 2017-04-26T18:47:29+00:00

One word.

Competition.

If you were the last dude on Earth surround by a hundred chicks you wont have any issues.

But in today's world you are competing with all the other Larrys and you need to stand out to attract a desireable mate.

RomusLupos · 2017-04-26T21:13:28+00:00

It doesn't work because telling males "just be yourself" is going against the years and years of tv/movies/media/ect that have been preaching how terrible it is to be masculine.

Boys are taught their whole lives to act against their very own nature, and then told to "just be themselves"? They have been pussified by the very medium that is telling them to "MAN UP".

These young boys are so confused about who they are supposed to be. From the constant groups screaming that they are all rapists and misogynists, to being told their whole life is one big ball of privilege, it is no wonder they are all so lost. Strong role models are so afraid of offending anyone and everyone that they have all but disappeared.

If there was not ten thousand things every day actively trying to dissuade them from their own nature, "Be Yourself" may be a good strategy, but in the world we live in today? Not a chance.

[deleted] · 2017-04-26T23:01:02+00:00

Well, when you are trying to grasp this pseudo philosophy as what it claims to me... But when you realize that it's actually a viral destructive set of unfounded beliefs, it makes sense. Viral stuff like that is not about coherence, it's about emotional manipulation. It's all about making victim feel insecure and then providing them with a promise of security. Sort of like... religion, I guess.

LibStealingSpic · 2017-04-26T23:03:32+00:00

Neglectful fathers, overbearing mothers and schools that reinforce the class heirarchy established after 2 guys from your class got hair on their balls, tends to do that to you.

voteGOPk · 2017-04-26T23:59:38+00:00

It is enough.

if you are born (i.e "naturally") good looking, don't have affective disorders, and didn't grow up with serious child abuse, you will be fine.

TRP is mostly a coping strategy for less than good looking men who don't realize looks matter to women as much as it matters to men.

[deleted] · 2017-04-27T00:00:22+00:00

Are most circles naturally circular?

Title	Q4RP: If men are naturally masculine then why is TRP needed? Shouldn't "just be yourself" be enough?
Author	BiggerDthanYou
Upvotes	26
Comments	209
Date	April 26, 2017 12:30 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/67nswq/q4rp_if_men_are_naturally_masculine_then_why_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4rp-if-men-are-naturally-masculine-then-why-is.268604 https://theredarchive.com/post/268604

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