Why do some men appear to resist all of the "cultural programming" and figure out how to get women on their own?

i_have_a_semicolon · 2016-11-01T18:43:25+00:00

I didn't grow up with a father. I lived with my mother and my grandparents. When I was younger (pre-teen) my two aunts were married, and I spent some of my earliest years with their husbands hunting and fishing. By the time I hit my teens, both my aunts were divorced, and the only consistent "male role model" I had in my life was my grandfather. I learned from him in my 20's that he basically kept his mouth shut about how I was being raised, but had concerns that I'd "turn out gay" (his words) because of how my mother, grandmother, and aunts babied me growing up. When I asked him why he didn't get involved he said: "it wasn't my place. I told your mother that if she kept you, it was on HER to raise you. But we'd help by giving you both somewhere to live and something to eat."

So with that being said, I never wanted to disappoint my grandparents, because I understood they gave up a lot in order for me to exist. I continued to tow the party line until after HS, when I began to feel that as an adult, it was OK to find my own way. In addition, in my younger years, my family was still very involved in the Catholic Church, although my very existence seemed to be the beginning of the end in terms of my families participation with the faith. Basically, when you go to Church every Sunday and are reminded how much you suck (having a child out of wedlock in 1970 was scandalous around here!) you quickly lose any desire to keep going every week. It took years, but eventually my entire immediately family left the Church. But in those early years? I spent 1st through 6th grade in a Catholic school, and it took most of my mothers yearly income to pay for it, I found out years later.

So religious indoctrination? CHECK

Lived in an "old school" household? CHECK (the only marriage I saw daily was my grandparents and they NO DOUBT had a 1.0 marriage)

Strong desire to not disappoint family? CHECK

Willing to conform for validation? CHECK

And just for flavor, essentially raised by women with little to no male input at all.

But somehow I was supposed to just throw all that off and embrace my masculine nature? LOL

disposable_pants · 2016-11-01T19:25:47+00:00

It's a combination of A) notable SMV advantages early on in life and B) the concept of a virtuous cycle. And if I'm reading your post correctly, you're referring to what PUAs deemed "naturals" -- guys who naturally have ample success with women, without needing to look into PUA/TRP/other analyses of the SMP.

To illustrate this, consider a guy I knew from junior high/high school -- call him Tim. Tim was an early bloomer. He wasn't a male model, but he was a good-looking guy and didn't struggle with the awkward parts of puberty (acne, cracking voice, odd facial hair) as much as most guys. He was a bit taller than average. In part due to his height and early maturity he was one of the best athletes in his class -- the type of guy who would be the best player hands-down on a JV squad and would start playing with the varsity team as an underclassmen.

In short, his already above-average SMV was greatly exaggerated by the circumstances of a typical 13- to 18-year-old boy's life: Puberty drove down plenty of guys' SMV, raising his by comparison; and even modest athletic talent (to my knowledge he never played a sport in college) gave him a significant status boost in school. His formative years were spent as a high-SMV male, so he internalized different experiences than men who grew up with average or below-average SMVs. He had far more contact with women, they reacted far more positively to him, he was given far more leeway with them if he made a mistake, and as a result he developed a natural confidence/abundance mentality/ability to flirt.

alreadyredschool · 2016-11-01T18:16:54+00:00

Shameless plagiarizing

The concept I'll be describing frequently crops up in finance discussions, if anyone is wondering where they've heard this before.

There are roughly 160 million men in the U.S. One day an anonymous multi-billionaire announces a massive national contest that promises $10K to all the winners -- it's only open to men, and all men enter. The rules of the contest are simple:

Each morning every contestant flips a coin and writes down whether it comes up heads or tails. They email/text/tweet in the result before 5 pm CST.
That night the contest organizers announce whether heads or tails wins.
Anyone who correctly calls the winning coin flip seven days in a row wins the contest and collects a $10,000 prize.

It's extremely likely that each day the contest runs half of the contestants will choose heads, and half will choose tails. This means that each day half of the remaining contestants will win (correctly call the correct side of the coin announced that night) and half will lose (call the announced coin incorrectly). Let's see how this plays out over the week the contest runs:

Monday: 160 million men flip a coin. 80 million pick heads, 80 million pick tails. Heads is announced that night.
Tuesday: 80 million men remain in the contest -- the 80 million who picked heads Monday night. Today 40 million stick with heads and 40 million go tails. Tails is announced that night.
Wednesday: 40 million men are left.
Thursday: 20 million men are left.
Friday: 10 million men are left.
Saturday: 5 million men are left.
Sunday: 2.5 million men are left.

Sunday night the 7th and final group of winners are announced -- at the end of the contest 1.25 million men take home a prize. Obviously some attribute their success to luck, but others claim they used their instincts, or that they're good at guessing, or that they used an elegantly simple procedure to decide their picks, or that god helped them, or that they won because they lived life the right way. The winners make money off books and appearances about their winning streaks. They preach to those who didn't win about how "if you only did what I did, you could have won too!"

Just as interesting is how common winners and near-winners seem to be. There's a winning male for every 128 men, and one out of every 32 men won five straight flips and came up just short. Everyone knows someone who came close, and if they don't personally know someone who outright won they've at least heard of a few nearby.

'----------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does this relate to sexual strategy? Replace coin flipping with men attempting to be sexually and romantically successful. Through sheer luck enough can succeed to the point where winners can be found commonly, and while some of these winners may realize that they stumbled into success many others will claim to have done it on their own and figure the losers must have done something wrong. This is how I see successful non-RP relationships: They aren't impossible, but there's no formula to follow if you want one. Winners might claim to have special knowledge of what works, but in reality it's almost entirely luck.

TRP is for people who want to win but would rather not rely on luck. The first step is to realize that the game is not fair, and the next is learning how to weight the coin in your favor.

If you liked this post then upvote the original https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3rfnue/coin_flipping_and_blue_pill_sexual_strategy/

If you did not understand the analogy read the last 4 paragraphs again. And learn how analogies work

The coin analogy describes how beta guys who don't do anything by the red pill book can land in successful relationships; even if betas as a whole have a low chance at succeeding, the sheer number of people who are trying to find relationships ensures that some of them will get lucky.

SirNemesis · 2016-11-01T18:15:31+00:00

Some people are naturally more conformist than others. Well, there might be some nurture involved too (i.e. kids with a strict cultural upbringing might be a little less likely to rebel), but I think it's mostly nature. Conformist kids follow the rules, obey the law, don't do drugs, and listen to their parents and teachers, etc.

Incidentally, when the society provides cultural programming that is counterproductive towards reproductive success (e.g. telling men to be nice little beta cucks, telling women to put off having children), it turns conformism into a maladaptive trait. This is not good for the future of civilization (how can you have a civilization when all the people in your new generation naturally don't obey rules / norms?).

[deleted] · 2016-11-01T18:35:26+00:00

Could be any number of things for some men who figure it out.

--jerk macho fathers.

--absent parents, which leaves the education of sons to media, peers and older boys/young men.

--knowledgeable fathers who specifically take over the raising of their sons and keep women out of the equation.

For boys who "don't get it", it's a number of things.

--in my case - weak, ineffectual father coupled with strong women in the family and a constant hourly, daily Blue Pill barrage from all adults all around me for 18 years, literally from birth until graduation from high school; and being constantly steered and redirected away from masculine men

--being told that girls and sex are things that "Just happen" and there's no need to learn about them or how they work; no education or instruction on how attraction works

--Blue Pill media (Disney romcoms sold to boys as THE gold standard for how to treat girls and attract them; John Hughes movies also sold as romance/sex exemplars)

--being constantly redirected to women as relationship/sex authorities; being told to take what women say at face value: "If you wanna know what women want, you gotta ask women!"

--being constantly told that women don't really like or want sex; and that women who do like or want sex are slutty, stupid, broken, damaged or mentally ill

gasparddelanuit · 2016-11-01T20:43:06+00:00

Firstly, everyone is shaped by cultural programming to some degree initially. Some more than others. Early on, I think a lot is going to depend on one’s exposure to it and the degree to which they see it challenged or are presented with alternatives. Later on will be the same, but with the added factor of one’s own adult cognitive abilities.

I’m sure having a strong, masculine, don’t give a fuck father or male role models helps, but that’s no guarantee that it will rub off, especially if a child is still integrated into the rest of society. I think a child in the West would need to be isolated or part of an immersive subculture where the niceties of liberal Western democracies were simply not relevant or present, such as in ghetto gangland territory or something.

Regarding getting women, I don’t think your average person who has success in this department has necessarily figured anything out. They just happen to be sufficiently attractive to people in whom they have a sexual or romantic interest. That could be due to good looks, personality, status, wealth etc. It’s the PUAs, RP types, anthropologists, sociologists, biologists etc., who try to understand and figure this stuff out.

[deleted] · 2016-11-01T18:27:47+00:00

Good parenting and friends

anitapk · 2016-11-01T18:17:02+00:00

I think that if you are socialized properly when young, you have good parents and are good looking you can be yourself and get on well in love life.

Also online you only read about people who have no success offline!

DucksCanDance · 2016-11-01T21:07:14+00:00

I agree with other posters here, but I'd also add: personal experience.

I was in serious relationships 15-21 and 21-26. So at 26 I was extremely naive about dating. But fast forward a couple years and I'd more or less figured it out.

It sounds like your husband had more experience as a teen, and he figured it out sooner.

NalkaNalka · 2016-11-02T02:10:46+00:00

Despite the horribly bad advice my father gave me about woman he did something far more important. Bring me up to question everything and rely on my own mind and observations. When I turned 16 and my niceguy whiteknight ideas about women clashed with reality my reaction was to check my premises. I discovered that they did not match reality so I changed them.

Among people that resisted the cultural programming you will generally find that they resisted other kinds of cultural programming as well.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-11-01T19:43:56+00:00

Men aren't taught that women are angels, it's stupid wishful thinking combined with pretty girl charm that dupes men into thinking that they are. Anyone who's spent any time with enough women should be able to see that they can be complete shits, so I don't believe that the reason for men's failure in this area can be attributed to a few Disney films, as is commonly touted by RPers. Nah, it's just that they're pretty and charming and it creates an illusion of benevolence, and men are more than happy to go along with that.

It has nothing to do with fathers either IMO. I never spoke about sex and dating with either of my parents, and my Dad is hardly a role-model for dating, given that I don't think they get along particularly well and he's basically a beta bux. He's a confident person and pretty ruthless in his job, but he's basically a clown in the relationship as far as I can tell. We're nothing alike. I'm shy and introverted, so by that logic I should be worse than him, but I'm not at all. I mean, even the difference between my behaviour in relationships compared to my brother's is absolutely enormous. It's not socialized, or not that much anyway.

You don't need to figure anything out at all, although you may get a better idea of what women find attractive and respond to that. It's perfectly natural for men to chase women and men are perfectly capable of doing it naturally. The problem is that all these young guys think they can snag a decent-looking girl when the demand for young, low to average SMV guys is very low. They don't have any genetic advantages, and they're incapable of providing any serious value, so of course they're going to struggle. Why should men at this age be succeeding at large? Why do we see this fact and assume that it must be society causing men to fail, rather than most men simply not having it within them to succeed.

When you already offer something, whether it's good-looks or having proven yourself to have some other kind of value, you don't need to understand 'game' to get women to be attracted to you, your value in and of itself is more than enough. This is why some men can still do it, because women make it easy for them because women actually want them. There's no skill to it, it's simply the case that you don't need to try and sell yourself.

Of course, there are lots of men who by nature are self-determined, have intellectual and emotional depth, and don't just keel over like the majority of men who are naturally quite submissive to women. The sad truth for the vast majority of RPers is that no one ever really taught them to be submissive to women, it's just how they naturally are. I guess good on them for trying to fake being dominant, but they shouldn't kid themselves. Men are portrayed as being submissive in the media because it's an accurate depiction of reality, not as a means of trying to brainwash them.

Genuinely dominant-minded men are a minority, and any attempt by a woman to obtain his submission, or infringe upon his independence, will be met badly. They don't need to be taught not to be submissive to women because their drive for self-determination is much stronger than naturally submissive men. That drive for self-determination is ultimately the only thing that separates the two groups. It doesn't mean they're necessarily going to be aggressive, or 'dark-triad' or whatever other bullshit, it just means that they're going to be instinctively defiant towards attempts on her part to be dominant.

Let me reiterate... the idea that men should be succeeding in their sexual imperative at the same time that women are is flawed, and wrong to be taken as a given. What women want is value in one way or another, and it's not their fault or society's fault that most men aren't up to it. If women don't perceive you as having value then they don't give a shit, and most guys don't have any. How much value is there really in 'game' and RP behavioural teaching? Like really, beyond having ONS with wasted party girls, what are you actually going to offer any girl in a relationship just by reading TRP?

It's not gonna happen. Women don't need men, they don't. It doesn't matter if you're RP'd, and everyone else is, it doesn't change how little value most men offer.

Leeloooooooooooooooo · 2016-11-02T05:40:37+00:00

is it the confluence of culture with lack of fathers or weak, ineffectual fathers?

Yes, this is part of it. Helicopter mothers without a tank of a father around.

If one is naturally beta and their mother and/or father helicopters over them it makes them susceptible to cultural programming.

but he also successfully dated as a teen

I think a lot of RP men did not successfully date as a teen because they were unattractive so they missed a few key lessons. By the time the became more attractive girls were miles ahead in experience.

Transmigratory · 2016-11-03T14:24:09+00:00

Either they are good role models they have to emulate, or they have had natural personality characteristics which enabled them to meet their needs. Of course there is the popular, yet valid, point of LMS: looks could be a reason, a good looking guy doing nice guy stuff will still get laid. Money, well a chance to get the lifestyle it affords makes a lot of women moist. Especially paired with looks or status. Status, this can be broad but anything the guy has which the woman can brag about (rich, empire, confident, focused and ambitious, tall, strong, huge and chunky cock etc) will help them get laid too.

KV-n · 2016-11-03T21:06:55+00:00

all the naturals i know have strong positive male e×ample in the form of their father, e×cept one who has weak-ass father but an alpha older brother. idk how did the brother get natural though without an e×ample

i_have_a_semicolon · 2016-11-01T18:13:52+00:00

so here's the thing that reddit misses. i don't think of this as something to 'overcome'. i think if you just live life normally and put yourself out there, the real world will make itself known and masculinity will come to the forefront, which is necessary for getting laid and getting LTRs.

men, with fathers or not, are naturally masculine. it's their nature. you have to be out in nature (the world) to see it flourish.

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[deleted] · 2016-11-01T18:38:03+00:00

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[deleted] · 2016-11-01T18:30:16+00:00

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HansProleman · 2016-11-01T21:49:29+00:00

I don't think it's any more complicated, in general, than relatively normal socialisation during childhood and adolescence.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-11-02T00:46:33+00:00

Some get lucky; the cultural programming is not all garbage and it varies from man to man and culture to culture.

OfSpock · 2016-11-02T01:13:31+00:00

I think it's basic personality. I have three male cousins, close in age who cover the complete spectrum of success with girls. One is still beta orbiting the girl who broke up with him and married someone else 25 years ago, one was a total player and the other had what you'd call an average social life.

Their father is a steel worker who did time in jail prior to marrying a traditional housewife.

fiat_lux_ · 2016-11-02T03:43:37+00:00

I avoided "cultural programming" because I always knew I was different.

I was a perpetual immigrant for one, and was almost always poorer than others. I never expected happy endings for myself like I saw in the movies. I certainly wanted to be a hero, but that was for "normal people". I felt exceptional.

yetieater · 2016-11-03T18:22:42+00:00

Dealing with fear of failure and willingness to take risks is probably increased with more masculine role models. Ultimately some people are more inclined to try their hand and learn from mistakes, and some tie themselves up in a ball of anxiety, and they kill their confidence as a result.

I think many on TRP trend towards analysis prior to just trying and learning from failure. Certain parental behaviours and schooling experiences ramp up fear of failure, particularly for the top few percent. I think this is possibly worse in the US from observation.

So when you get a bunch of inexperienced men with an enhanced fear of failure hampering experimental learning and media feeding a lot of narrative based on appeal of viewer surrogacy in the protagonist and wish fulfilment, of course reality is a big shock to such lads. They are a good person, the hero of their own tale, but there is no heroine seeking their awkward ass out.

Maybe that's unfair, I'm talking off the cuff, but it seems to fit to me. It seems to account for the idea that many men 'just get it' because they haven't got the elevated failure fear, so they accumulate experience and learn by doing.

[deleted] · 2016-11-04T00:54:18+00:00

They don't resist the cultural programming; they're either too dumb to absorb it (average good-looking/jock type) or good-looking enough to be successful in spite of it.

Title	Why do some men appear to resist all of the "cultural programming" and figure out how to get women on their own?
Author	Atlas_B_Shruggin
Upvotes	27
Comments	257
Date	November 1, 2016 6:09 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5aknkx/why_do_some_men_appear_to_resist_all_of_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-do-some-men-appear-to-resist-all-of-the.272062 https://theredarchive.com/post/272062

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