Bloopers: What is your response to "yea but it works"?

qwerty3141 · 2015-11-27T23:01:22+00:00

I don't think it's valid to say that sexuality is amoral any more than it is valid for a thief to say that stealing is okay because you can't truly claim anything as your own. Where we have a social contract, we have agreed upon definitions of property. In that same contract, we have certain agreed upon definitions of morality, and those definitions are not somehow exclusive from sex.

The golden rule, or some variant thereof, appears in virtually every culture and religion. It is a simple principle based on the idea that other people are real and we don't want them to suffer because we don't want to suffer. We have created a world where increasingly few people have to suffer, and the suffering that we have is less extreme. Generally, humans seem to agree with this principle. The Red Pill exists based on that principle - it's the idea that men will help other men achieve the goal of sex because they want sex and understand that other men want sex too.

The problem with The Red Pill is that it constantly denies the humanity of women. Women are mere means to the end goal of sex. They are toys to be "gamed". They are depicted as an enemy that will try to suck as much value out of you as possible, so The Red Pill paints all women as conniving assholes and gives men tactics to beat women to the punch. If women are not humans, that's fine, you can break them into submission like dogs. Unfortunately for The Red Pill, women are humans, and if we follow the one rule that seemingly every society throughout time has rationalized, Red Pill Tactics are definitely immoral.

You can say that "sexual strategy" is amoral, but unless you can actually argue that women are not people, that assertion is entirely invalid. If you choose not to care about morality, I don't think it makes you a sociopath, just selfish. I don't think a selfish life is a satisfying life in the long run.

heredpill · 2015-11-28T01:34:19+00:00

A lot of red pill techniques give guys confidence - in the past, they put women on a pedestal and now they look down on women. Confidence is sexy. Being outcome independent is attractive to both sexes. that's why everyone complains that it's easy to attract the people they aren't attracted to. Red pill helps guys at least fake outcome independence.

It also helps them be more interesting, or at least fake being interesting and mysterious.

So it will "work" for a while, but then shit goes wrong. It's not a long term solution, because real confidence comes from living in such a way that you are proud of yourself. True outcome independence comes from having enough good in your life that you won't be thrown off kilter if one thing you want doesn't happen. And someone is really interesting when they have a lot of external interests- not just faking it.

Red pill gets them so far, but, because men also crave intimacy (not just physical intimacy) and red pill is a barrier to real intimacy, they'll find that it's not a long term solution.

It "works" in the initial stages, it gets them further than they would have gotten if they were following a girl around like a puppy dog. So, if that's all a guy wants, great. But he likely won't find himself satisfied long-term, and it will turn him into the kind of guy that can't have a healthy long-term relationship.

So that's how I'd argue. Appeal to their self interest.

Unfortunately a lot of these guys are really short sighted so they won't "get it."

caesarfecit · 2015-11-27T21:47:38+00:00

See this is one of the things I find hilarious about this sub. I see the same old arguments show up again and again like some silly game of rock-paper-scissors.

Personally, I think both charm and assertiveness have their role in game and anybody who says different - well I want what they're smoking.

But lets poke some holes in standard terper rebuttals.

Yeah, but it works

So does paying for sex, either literally or figuratively.

TRP is correct in the sense that when your average woman is given the choice between a guy with good selling features but no balls, and the opposite, she might have a relationship with Mr Beta, but she'll slut it up on the weekend looking for Mr. Alpha.

Ultimately, I think the Alpha vs. Beta debate is silly. It's like an arbitrary debate between quantity and quality. An alpha strategy will get you the notches, but if you're aiming for quality women, you're playing the odds and trying to get lucky. A beta strategy however will get lots of high end women in your circle but they won't respect you, and getting laid will take disproportionate amounts of effort - as women will try and milk you for all you're worth.

Ultimately, a needy Alpha just doesn't get laid, and a needy Beta ends up in the friend zone/cheated on. Neediness is the real game-killer, as it nullifies both charm and balls.

Sexual strategy is amoral

Sexual strategy is based on future expectations, therefore morality/values enter the picture, regardless of what you tell yourself.

This is one of my favorites, as it's very reminiscent of what Social Darwinists used to say. The logic is, that sex is about gratification at the end of the day, and therefore sexual strategy should focus on what it is, rather than what it what it ought to be. The blind spot however, is that any strategy, sexual or not, is based on certain assumptions, particularly about how things ought to be - in this case, that gratification and practicalities trump appearances and forms. If sexual strategy was truly amoral however, rape, coercion, and even gay sex between bros just to get your rocks off would be on the table.

But even if you're willing to do literally anything to get laid, on some level you're applying normative values to the sexual marketplace, even if its within your own little sphere of influence. You have a set of expectations about women, and what kind of woman you want and what she'll respond to, and you wittingly or not make decisions that affect your environment. So quit being facetious and own up to it. Nobody is telling you to be the change you want to see in the world - but you will change your world simply by acting, so act in a manner that advances your ideals and goals.

OfSpock · 2015-11-27T21:47:37+00:00

It works because it filters for people who are like that. If you drop women who don't have sex with you right away, you are cutting out a large swathe of the population right away. I'm all for this, since I (and women like me) don't want to be bothered by players, who are annoying.

coratoad · 2015-11-27T23:08:47+00:00

When you refer to RP, you are pointing to a large, diverse set of ideas. This set is not strictly defined and overlaps quite a bit with mainstream advice. If you look at the advice unique to RP, you lose ideas such as 'women find athletic, confident men attractive', and go into the realm of 'women like to be degraded' or 'all women are psychopaths'. Interestingly, RPillers often claim that we would never be able to tell that they are RP in real life. They claim that RPillers come across as attractive, confident, and flirty, not misogynistic, judgmental assholes. In other words, the very qualities that distinguish RPillers from the mainstream are also the qualities that they keep hidden in their outward behavior. You guys tell us yourselves that we would never be able to tell the difference. So what role does the second, unique set of RP beliefs have in your success? When you say the RP works, what specific RP ideas do you think contributed to your success?

LeaneGenova · 2015-11-28T00:53:04+00:00

Women used to use lead or mercury (or even blood letting) to make their skin paler during the Renaissance era. It worked rather well, in fact. However, it also had the nasty side effect of causing organ damage and, you know, death. But it worked! It made their skin incredibly pale, and made them more attractive. Until they died of heavy metal poisoning, that is.

If you can't tell, my rebuttal is that "it works" can be applied to many things that are horrible not only society or humanity, but for the individual. In analyzing a problem, you cannot look only at the short-term, but must also look at the potential long-term ramifications of your actions. I find that TRP encourages behavior that is harmful to men and women, which I find to be lamentable.

Am I saying that every idea that TRP has promulgated is incorrect, or likely to be unhealthy? Nope. But I certainly see a lot more behavior that has the potential to be severely unhealthy on TRP than I do in many other places.

[deleted] · 2015-11-27T23:36:39+00:00

My response would be "it works until it doesn't." There are millions of men in happy relationships. You cannot tell me that they are all using RP tactics. Also browsing married red pill doesn't really give one much confidence in the ability of TRP to help form or continue a happy marriage.

wombatinaburrow · 2015-11-28T01:26:50+00:00

Threatening to kill her works, too.

GerwigisExhausting · 2015-11-27T21:39:19+00:00

The KKK taught me how to brush my teeth. And floss!

It really works - way less cavities!

I don't know what I'd do without them. Since morality is not a factor, nothing else they do bothers me; I just need the dental hygiene part.

Xemnas81 · 2015-11-27T22:45:55+00:00

This is probably going to be impossible to talk about.

I'd need an in-depth explanation of "it works" for one thing. How does it work? What is your/RP's definition of "it works"? It is as simple as "I get my dick into more vaginas with RP"?

I had to take responsibility for everything that has happened to me in my life even if it wasn't my fault. This has helped me take responsibility for my child hood (what you guys call victim blaming) and helped me forgive my father No therapist had ever told me the analogy about how "when you're dealt a bad deck you don't get up and leave. You deal with it, might not be your fault but you're still responsible to deal with it". That would be victim blaming. This in turn has helped me overcome a depressive toxic way of life and is allowing me to make great progress which in turn is helping in every other way in life.

In no way is this Red Pill-exclusive. In fact I think most people probably know this to be the truth. You have to play with the hand you're dealt. Mostly because pragmatism. No one else is going to fix you, solve your problems etc. Only the individual can do that. And just as a nitpick, the "I have to take responsibility for what X did to me" isn't right. An individual is not responsible for what others do. They are responsible for themselves and what they do. If your father screams at you that you're a worthless piece of shit everyday that's on him. Dealing with effects of being screamed at, making choices as to how to respond etc. is on the person getting screamed at. It isn't fair but it's reality. We have no way of forcing horrible people to atone for their crimes (outside of certain physical acts which are illegal, although most children lack the power and knowledge to pursue this). As far as I know, this is actually what therapy is about, in large part. Teaching damaged people how to deal with their damage in a way that helps them rather than making their lives worse. It's just wrong to say this is some kind of exclusive Red Pill thing. It's mostly a human maturity thing, imo.

As for the moral vs the amoral or immoral, yeah, again, people get that. Some people are going to think act X is immoral because it results in effect Y (another person being hurt). Others aren't going to care about morality because they...don't care about morality. Not sure how to force people to care about things they don't care about.

Also, RP often uses 'amoral' in terms of 'the info itself is amoral' and not in 'we believe there is no morality' - not sure if you're making that distinction here. A piece of paper with bomb-making instructions on it isn't, in itself, immoral (or moral). Building a bomb and setting it off in order to injure people, I think most of us would probably agree that's immoral. The act is moral/immoral. The information isn't. FWIW, I'm not defending RP here. I think most of RP is a steaming pile. But they're not wrong about information being, in and of itself, moral. I just think a lot of their information is wrong in the same way i think Christianity is wrong. Studies have shown that religion 'works'. Religious people report higher levels of satisfaction in their lives:

The Legatum Prosperity Index reflects the repeated finding of research on the science of happiness that there is a positive link between religious engagement and wellbeing: people who report that God is very important in their lives are on average more satisfied with their lives, after accounting for their income, age and other individual characteristics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happiness#Happiness_and_religion

...that doesn't make Christianity (or pick a religion) 'right'. It doesn't mean Jesus turned water into wine. It doesn't mean he rose from the dead. It doesn't mean the immaculate conception happened. I am in no way surprised that something like Red Pill 'works' in a some senses (although if you're gonna pick one, I'd go with religion, at least once you're past the so horny you can't think stage of life). I bet it would 'work' without the misogyny, too. Take a group of people, increase their confidence levels, get them fitter, dress them better etc. - yeah, that is probably going to help. Just because a TRper gets laid doesn't mean all women are mental children (for example). One doesn't follow from the other.

wub1234 · 2015-11-27T21:19:37+00:00

If you don't care about morality at all then you are a sociopath.

ozymandias271 · 2015-11-28T00:02:53+00:00

In ancient Greek medicine, there were a lot of herbs that were believed to "balance the humors". Some of these herbs turned out to have actual medicinal properties and are used in modern medicine.

The doctors did empiricism: they said "hey, if we give our patients such-and-such a herb, they're more likely to recover than if we don't." They're moderately reliable about which herbs will help your patient. However, that does not mean that there's any such thing as humors which need to be balanced, and in fact their four-humors theory causes them to use herbs that don't help or even hurt the patient. And on some topics, such as whether epidemics are caused by unfavorable arrangements of the stars, the doctors are utterly unreliable.

So that's what I feel about TRP. A lot of their advice for men about how to flirt works. It doesn't work for the reasons they believe it works, their inaccurate model causes them to give some terrible advice, and when they start giving advice to women or talking about how society should be run they go entirely off the rails.

[deleted] · 2015-11-28T00:44:40+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Bekazzled · 2015-11-28T10:42:33+00:00

One party is arguing on the basis of morality (mind you there's nothing wrong with that) and the other party really does NOT care about morality. So blue pillers, what is your response to the ever so famous "it works" response you often get after heavily criticising trp

You just answered the argument for me. It's primarily on the bounds of morality.

In terms of "Yeah but it works", my issue is that it might only work for the individual for a short period of time and when they're older, they might not understand why it's stopped working. (There's also those who find TRP doesn't work and whinge about it over on MGTOW. And most of the MGTOW guys don't seem that happy to me, suggesting that it doesn't always work.)

However for the sake of argument, let's assume these MGTOW guys aren't overly relevant to this discussion and we're talking about TRP guys. My points then involve this:

OR: B: "ok just cause, and even if, it works does NOT mean it's right. It's not right to view people or in particular women like that" R: "I don't care. Sexual strategy is amoral".

I mean this argument is very close to the mark from my perspective, but I'd venture to add that in terms of Game, it generally works best on a certain aged women (inexperienced/young ones). I think that's immoral, yeah - but if we push the morality issue aside...

I still wonder if it's helping out the individual TRP dude in the long-term or sabotaging them. What happens when the guy gets older and decides he wants a different aged or a different sort of girl he is used to having sex with (say, more experienced in the world)? Of course not all TRP guys will want to do this, but some might. And who knows what you what might in a few years time.

What works for a 20 year old plating women around the same age won't work for the dude when he hits his late 20s and may decide to date someone around his age group (late 20s or a bit older). Say he's doing this because he decides he wants a LTR or whatever.

My example of a 27 year old player trying to Game someone outside his usual demographic - an older chick, i.e. me - is here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3tq2hi/cmv_redpill_does_give_some_decent_pointers/cx8s7hj

I got some interesting feedback here from an RP guy. He suggests that a) Game might not work on women who are older, as they might identify it and b) the Player is not utilizing game correctly.

I think he might be onto something there.

As the RP guy helpfully pointed out, this guy did not maintain OI. However, his game was still strong enough to intrigue almost every other female in our class (all of whom were ten years younger than me at least). According to the number of women this Player had sex with (let alone married by that age), Game and RP thinking had worked well for him, even though he's messed up OI. So he continues to think, "I don't need the OI part that those other RP guys think is important, because I'm still scoring chicks all the time" - because he IS.

But when he found out it wasn't working on me - and as such, I became his primary target to "bag" - it ended in me continually resisting, and him growing more frustrated without seeming to know why. Him sending that final text message calling me a bitch shows that a) he doesn't have OI; but also arguably that b) he might be justified in his own mind about being confused about why Game didn't work on me.

Why justified? Because his non-OI technique has worked so well in the past, he has every reason to think it should continue working in the future.

What I'm saying is, it's not just about Game not working for the individual if they want to try it on a different kind of chick (or an older chick). It's about a lot of people who read TRP and only embrace some parts of it. They don't engage in the whole process and it STILL works for them. If it works without using OI (as with my Player), then why bother using OI? It's like an easy out.

I think that's why TRP gets a lot of its help requests from guys who aren't implementing it properly. They come to the forum, cherry-pick which parts of TRP they think will work for them, not do the readings etc and then will go out with an unstable idea of TRP and find that it still works. Then the same guy comes back whining later, "It didn't work..." or "How do I fix this one?" and everyone points out to him, "you didn't use OI" or "you didn't do this" and then he leaves in a temper tantrum. Then TRP ECs and mods get sick of people just picking and choosing TRP and swooping into the forums when they need "help" and nupping out of the sub when they refuse to follow through.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you leave a framework up to an individual to embrace (like RP theory) they're frequently going to apply it according to their own bias.

I have to say though I'm not as familiar as I am with TRP as I am with MRP (research-wise). Any RP guy who might want to get married one day - well, my problem with TRP is that it might be setting them up for failure. In being admittedly amoral and using RP plating as a basis for "how to spend the next "x" years dating/plating women"... this doesn't really transfer well for the guy who wants to date someone in a serious capacity.

There might be some VERY good relationship advice on TRP and I haven't seen it. However, from glances I've seen, when people DO post relationship stuff on TRP there's a bit of debate about whether its relevant. Remember that dude about a month ago who got angry and banned because his LTR/marriage-related TRP post was suspended temporarily? I only heard of this because it became such a big thing, and he reposted on PPD. But I'm assuming the goal of TRP isn't to game for marriage. (?)

And if TRP guy in the future wants to relationship-up, he'll end up confused about why Game isn't working (as in my case linked above). He might need to find a new "strategy". And since he hasn't developed his OWN strategy but relies on what he's read at TRP, how will he achieve this? By going to MRP? Because to me, it seems like MRP is mostly filled with guys who are angry about getting married in the first place, and doing whatever they can to justify staying in a lifelong relationship with someone they utterly loathe.

I admit I've got more experience on MRP than TRP mentality, however these are some issues I would guess at.

andrewisgood · 2015-11-28T01:53:54+00:00

If I want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have it as well, I'll just rape them. It worked. I got the sex and I accomplished what I wanted.

If I want money, I'll just steal from someone. If I don't get caught, I get more money and I accomplished what I wanted.

Basically, ethical dilemmas can come up, maybe not all the time like with working out and attempting to gain confidence. But having this mindset of women are just a certain way and that's the end of it, it could cause some problems with people.

Also, to the thing of sexual strategy is amoral, one of my strategies to get sex was raping someone. So would rape be amoral? Or is there a possibility that sometimes, sexual strategy can either be moral or immoral depending on the situation?

CursedLemon · 2015-11-27T21:36:36+00:00

Interpersonal relationships are completely case-by-case.

To say "yeah, it worked" is to say nothing about the situation and the myriad of factors on how it proceeded.

But to speak in extremely general terms...what worked? Working out and having a charming disposition? Yeah no shit I bet that worked.

HeatseekingLogicBomb · 2015-11-28T14:00:03+00:00

Morality is subjective. But whatever judgment you cast for an action, then you should cast it on all demographics.

For instance, I can only assume Blues despise all magazines that tell women how to attract men and improve themselves for other ends as well.

[deleted] · 2015-11-28T14:39:22+00:00

I care about the truth not about what "works".

FreshFace77 · 2015-11-28T03:18:09+00:00

Two main points. The problem with RP people is that they were lied to as children. I don't know why they believed the lie, but they did. They were told "when doing target practice, don't fire your gun." So they spend years at the range and watch other guys get awards for shooting and wonder why their target papers have no holes. Eventually they find trp and it says "you need to fire a bullet in order to make a hole. All targets are like that." So they start pulling the trigger. Then they call to me and say "look, it really works" and show me a paper with a wide distribution of holes where 3 out of 25 happen to be in the center mass. I put my target paper on the conveyor belt, send it to the back of the range, shoot a smiley face into the head, roll it forward, and give it to the trper with a "have a nice day."

The other thing is that trpers are fucking up the scene. They are coming in and abusing women and by acting like a sex starved fuckboi, making women think all men are sex starved fuckbois. They are ghosting on women which makes women think it's okay to ghost on us men. They are playing their stupid text games which makes women hard to get a hold of. Quite simply, they are not following the camp site rule. The average terper has no finesse and so don't being in any sexual community. And I play in sexual communities, because the sex with women in them is next level shit. Tinderellas chocking on the cock of a guy who memorized the sex good method have nothing on it. Last time I went home from one, I was on an endogenous dopamine high for hours.

You claim sexual strategy is amoral but there needs to be some morality for it to be social, otherwise you are just stepping on my dick. And why would I help you do that. I'm not your beta bitch past self.

[deleted] · 2015-11-28T17:26:17+00:00

here's my experience

joined a frat the guys on top are chads, they plow more than a farmer. as a pledge I saw this, I wanted to be that, so I got swole and adopted the personality traits of a Chad.

Chad doesn't just plow the cheerleaders or sorority girls, we bring back yuppie hos, single moms, married chicks, divorced chicks, hipster chicks, full scale feminists.

my fraternity big told me this, "why only try rocky road and sherbet when you can have all the flavors with extra topping, but just remember marry vanilla."

wazzup987 · 2015-11-29T06:58:46+00:00

On some women . Rp preselect heavily.

Title	Bloopers: What is your response to "yea but it works"?
Author	Hackey23
Upvotes	11
Comments	166
Date	November 27, 2015 9:04 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3uiagu/bloopers_what_is_your_response_to_yea_but_it_works/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/bloopers-what-is-your-response-to-yea-but-it-works.278226 https://theredarchive.com/post/278226

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