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peelen
[–]deaduponaviral83 points84 points85 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
"You must go through life with an equal sense of humor and impending doom" ---Some old guy I asked for life advice
It's just that. The sheer impossibility of your existence is what should make you both laugh and do awesome shit everyday while not giving a fuck about what others think. People who want to follow the rules will always try and check you when you sway from the norm, because they themselves are too afraid to do anything of substance. Just laugh at the plebs; they deserve nothing more from you.
[–]dylanlis9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I think its also important to not take yourself that seriously as well. Yes be confident but if a girl isn't into you don't take it as an insult. In the end its a numbers game. Don't link results directly with your ego and you will be fine.
[–]Hockey7111 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Know of any quotes about not taking yourself too seriously? Wouldn't mind some for a wall paper or possibly tattoo
[–]l0rdg00b3r0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago [recovered] (0 children) | Copy Link
“Humanity takes itself too seriously. It is the world's original sin. If the cave-man had known how to laugh, History would have been different.” ― Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1858012-the-picture-of-dorian-gray
Lord Henry is one of the most quotable characters ever written.
[–]DuskVision0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Don't take life so seriously, You'll never make it out alive."
[–]dylanlis0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You were born into this world covered in blood and shitting your pants, don't take yourself too seriously- george carlin
No one makes it out alive, don't take life too seriously.-unknown
[–]Syberr0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In portuguese we have one that is top notch. Here the verb cum is "gozar" which also means "to mock".
So the quote is as follows: Don't take life so seriously, after all you're the product of a "gozada". (Meaning both cumming and joke)
[–]s0und0fyell0w-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/serious.html
heres a whole page of quotes about seriousness. admittedly none of them are very good but what did you really expect?
[–]RiseAboveRuin3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Man, I really like what was said here. So much so I saved it. Part of my issue is that every awesome thing I've ever done has been an impulsive decision. I've got impulse control issues though and I know that. Reading shit like this makes me want to go out to the bars on a school night (I'm 26 in a badass college town) and pick up women though when I should be going to bed around 10 and waking up at 5 to knock out morning work.
Fucken I'll be damned if I don't want to pour myself a glass of whiskey after reading this though. I think the real take away is step your life up. Don't be a stale, boring, no nuts ass dude. Do what scares you the most because it's probably what'll make you the happiest when you succeed. Good shit.
[–]brotherjustincrowe1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Laughter is nothing else but sudden glory arising from some sudden conception of some eminency in ourselves, by comparison with the infirmity of others, or with our own formerly." -Thomas Hobbes
[–][deleted] 0 points0 points0 points 11 years ago | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]deaduponaviral0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plebs
[–]2wiseclockcounter0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
https://www.google.com/search?q=plebian&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
means "of the common people"
[–]the_low_s29 points30 points31 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Its scary how true this all is, even if its packed as comedy.
[–]peelen[S] 36 points37 points38 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's my point. For me it's not scary. It's just: we are different, we have different goals, it's fucking important to remember that, but it's nothing to be scared. In the situation she describes you'll be knowing "ok now she's in her "got to get boyfriend" mode", you'll be not scared, just warned. It's like playing poker: you're not scared because your opponent is using tricks to win, you just trying to find those tricks and play yours.
[–]_the_shape_0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Awesome analogy. Getting burned sucks, but getting past the hatred and "women are evil" phase is crucial. They can still be enjoyed, you can still have fun with them, you simply have to know how to 'play your cards' better (read: smarter)
[–]brotherjustincrowe9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Patrice O'Neal, Joe Rogan and Bill Burr packed a lot of RP truths as comedy. Only the jester can call the king a fool.
[–]rokr12921 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
a lot of truth is said in jest
[–]_the_shape_19 points20 points21 points 11 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link
Good point. It's a rite of passage. Most (or all) of us go through it. All of that energy is much better spent learning to understand women, but not in a vengeful way, not out of spite - that's childish and pointless and time wasted. Go put on some boxing gloves and take it out on a bag if you can't break that rage-induced trance.
Seek to understand women, seek to understand yourself. Consider that the odds are probably quite high that your pain at the hands of women was punishment for being a dishonest, calculating "nice guy". Instead of focusing on "payback", focus on becoming THE MAN that they deep down wish you would have been all along. This line of thinking will get you much further.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This really resonated with me. Thank you.
[–]unsuckable9335-5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
fuck that, I'm moving onto better things. Get rich, fuck hookers, and hopefully die young of a drug overdose. It will be a hell of a lot easier than figuring out how to manage a woman and raise kids. Fuck the american dream. See you on the other side.
[–]E2DsIE1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
honestly sounds nice sometimes but fuck the easy life in all honesty
[–]unsuckable93350 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Whoever set getting rich enough to buy unlimited hookers and drugs was easy?
[–]E2DsIE0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Its easy in the sense that its purely hedonistic. idk, is altruism red pill?
[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
You have to remember that a lot of guys who end up here are going through the anger stage of red pill. So you will see a lot of rage coming out in various ways. I just kind of take it with a grain of salt, understanding the stage they are in, because I was there myself at one point.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
How do I get out of that stage? I've been in and out of acceptance and anger. This is on a daily basis.
[–]Kill_Your_Ego1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
When you realize what you can and can't actually do with women and the laws in your area. I still get mad sometimes, typically when confronted by a friend who is being lied to by blue pill ideas, but it fades a lot faster.
I think it's different for everyone. Working out helps deal with it. It just takes time. At some point, I began to realize that getting mad, although fully justified, doesn't really help anymore. I think it's a gradual thing that goes away over time.
[–]peelen[S] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
lot of guys who end up here are going through the anger stage
I remember that, and that's totally fine. I've just feeling that proportions anger/fun are unhealthy sometimes.
[–]Ojisan10 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I haven't had a rage phase. Maybe it's because I listened to too much Patrice before stumbling onto TRP. Or maybe it's because I am headed for the rage phase and just don't know it.
All I know is, I've been really working on myself, feeling 100% better about myself than a year ago, and yet more completely face to face with what is missing in my life.
I'm optimistic, but this is not an easy path to be on.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No it isn't easy, is it? Not everyone goes through the anger stage, the red pill is like that. But I think everyone agrees it's not easy, and can be very bitter sometimes.
Generally, the good things in life don't come easy.
[–]Ojisan11 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Bitter, yes that's a better word than rage for where I'm at.
I've lost 100 lbs in just under a year, working on becoming the strongest version of myself (already had smart, funny, career, etc but no game).
It used to be fine to bury myself in work, smoking weed, playing video games, and binge-watching TV. Now none of those things appeal to me anymore, but I haven't progressed far enough on myself to attract the type of girls I'm attracted to (verified this on OkCupid and Tinder - getting some practice, but it's with HB5's and not the HB8's I'm looking for).
So yeah, it's a bitter pill, but I'm optimistic because I know I have it in me to get where I want to go. I'm not in a rage, but I'm not giving up.
[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I feel the same. I am fairly new to this subreddit, but I see more and more threads about divorce-rapes, alimony shit and similar topics. Yes, I get it, AWALT and all that, but do we really need 3-5 topics per day about this? I mean, everyday a lot of men get fucked by women like that, and I dont think TRP should be about posting to news articles about these men.
[–]aptway11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
A lot of the stuff I read here makes me laugh in pretty morbid ways. It's important, because the Red Pill is one bitter motherfucker.
What the Red Pill highlights is that most human tendencies, especially female, are driven by biological imperatives and impulses. This fact, when coupled with the realization of what a cruel bitch Mother Nature is, can be depressing.
Two things that put a smile on my face are the fact that I'll never allow myself to be beta bucks, and I'll never raise another man's child thanks to the knowledge I've found in this place.
[–]1Dev_on11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Don't kid yourself, so are ours... It's just they benefit us so we don't think of them as a pejorative
[–]1cover202 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Some RP strategies might fit that description. But we've got a lot of pretty middle of the road guys here who are just wishing there were common decency on the other side.
They haven't learned/accepted that pushing the envelope is the successful sexual strategy.
[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
pushing the envelope
This is true. The women all reside in the same middle because they fear tribal rejection for taking risks and telling truths. Too many guys play it safe and project that same sort of me-too weakness.
The action-oriented guy who doesn't give a fuck, deftly deciphers social code and speaks candidly comes across as funny and ballsy confident. Women love the freedom he expresses in breaking/disregarding social norms, versus the conforming approach nicer/weaker guys take.
[–]Ojisan10 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The action-oriented guy who doesn't give a fuck, deftly deciphers social code and speaks candidly comes across as funny and ballsy confident.
This seems sidebar-worthy. Great summary of a lot of what I've read here on TRP, I'm going to try to remember this one.
[–]WAFC2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And some of us have accepted that based on the evidence at hand, but still don't feel compelled to engage. The old saying was that the juice had to be worth the squeeze. To me, it seems like pretending to be a less compassionate, sensitive person in order to woo a disloyal, dishonest person is all squeeze.
[–]1Dev_on0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'd style for just realizing that should doesn't belong in their vocabulary
[–][deleted] 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago | Copy Link
[–]1Dev_on0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Considering some of the threadnaughts in here, I'm going to respectfully disagree
[–]aptway-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Fair. I guess you might say our capacity for logic leaves us better-equipped to temper them, but the impulses are just strong for both sexes.
I've always tried to integrate doubt into my thoughts. Seeing what would happen if I'm wrong held me understand the times things don't go my way.
Can't learn without assuming everything that Goes wrong is your fault, and changing behavior.
Except those times where you have no control over things, but that's the wisdom and experience thing
[–]paracog2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The truth is funnier than shit. The truth will set you free, whatever gender. She's great.
[–]Heyimtitel1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Haha at 5:35 she even shows us the rationalization hamster.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Rage, like all emotion is amoral. Neither good nor bad, blue nor red. It simply is.
How one acts on those emotions is what defines the man.
Getting upset, angry and resentful of all women due to sexism or feminism is folly.
Using that anger as fuel to better yourself, play smarter and be vigilant is useful.
[–]ultrasuperthrowaway11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Rage isn't alpha at all it's just what some people go through in the process of learning red pill philosophy.
Emotion is what women have developed for children which was constructed by evolution so that they care for their offspring to continue the species.
[–]rpscrote35 points36 points37 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
More of this alpha/beta pigeonholing nonsense...
Rage is not alpha or beta. It is. Alphas sometimes feel rage, betas sometimes feel rage. It's orthagonal
[–]SenorPuff7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Righteous anger while retaining frame is very powerful. Being pissed that the world doesn't work the way you want it is childish. 'Rage' is such a vague word, but situationally, yeah, it's pretty easy to see that anger, and more importantly acting on it, can go both ways.
[–]unsuckable93351 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree with this. Whenever anger comes from a place of weakness (you hurt me so I'm angry), it never fulfills a purpose and always makes you look weak. But controlled anger, anger from a place of power is a very useful emotion.
[–]ultrasuperthrowaway4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
rage, uncontrollable anger is a lack of control over yourself
[–]Endorsed ContributorAFPJ12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Alpha is interchanged with "my ideal archetype of a man" & beta with "undesirable / not ideal" wayyy too often. When one finds out their in-group has been systematically exploited & conspired against, of course they'll be mad. You can only stay mad for so long, most anger is new posters - nothing wrong with it: rage is a natural reaction.
[–]dreckmal3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Emotion is what allows us to make choices. It has less to do with caring for offspring and more to do with providing the ability to make decisions in general.
Normal and healthy men and women both have and need to have emotions. The difference is that real men do not let go of the reins.
Men coming into the red pill were men that didn't have a proper grip on those reigns, and this often expresses itself as anger or rage.
[–]saient4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are absolutely right. The guy you are commenting to is a fool if he thinks emotion is only for women to love their offspring.
Multiple psychological studies are centered around the huge positive role emotion is believed to have in problem solving and decision making.
The difference is that real men do not let go of the reins.
amen.
I'm pretty sure rage applies to all humans, not just women and beta men. There are a number of posts that lean towards hating women but I don't feel that's what this group is about at all. I feel it just gives us a bad name on reddit (all these ragers i mean).
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
i disagree. its not that black and white. a beta cant rage. he will not dare to be angry and agrressive no matter how much he is shit on.
on the other hand, if you havbe zero control over your emotions and you rage at the most little petty thing, than yeah thats pathetic.
[–]Rathadin4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Betas don't rage... that's why they occasionally go off the deep end and kill their wives and their lover(s) when they find 'em in bed together.
C'mon brother. We know better than that. Everyone, no matter how weak and pathetic, has a breaking point somewhere. Something that hits them so hard, they can't control that primal anger inside.
It doesn't make them pathetic. It makes them human.
It doesn't make them pathetic.
whats pathetic is when people get extremly angry all the time over petty things.
[–]Murcus 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In response to her comedy... I've had thoughts of wanting to be in a relationship for ten years. Fucking lie. Maybe they can sense that deep down, but deeper they know I don't trust them?
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
She's seeing it as women see it. Remember, to women the bottom 80% of men are invisible. They literally don't see them as men. They are only hunting top 20 percenters.
[–]Restlessuser0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I guess I'll know when i'm finally doing something right when a girl wants me to get into a relationship. For me that's lot an entire world i'm unfamiliar with. Perhaps I just don't notice the ones i'm not into.
[–]Surf_Or_Die0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is one of few places where people can come and rage about getting divorce raped or some such and get some good feedback instead of the mainstream bullshit. I think that is the core reason to the overflow of negativity in this forum. But yet - I agree. I read TRP much less than before because - honestly - it's depressing. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
[–]tenin2010br0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why do women need to be funny?
"Cause I want you to be happy."
[–]wermode0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's when I remember to take the ultimate advice, from brother Frank Zappa: to shut up and play mah guitar.
[–]1Joelasaur0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But this attitude may bring us to the place where feminists are today.
I've been thinking about this for a while. Good post.
[–]dandeezy0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
thank you! I felt like I was the only one happy in this sub. depressing place sometimes. it doesn't have to be this. way
[–]rokr12920 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I discovered TRP when i was in a very angry place, like many, many others. After reading, and thinking, and going out and trying these new concepts, that anger disappeared and turned into a curiosity and a fascination with unraveling how things work. This fundamental change in attitude has actually even helped me absorb more of the concepts and attitudes TRP has to offer, and I'm very grateful.
I'm also a huge fan of standup. Patrice Oneal and Joe Rogan are brought up fairly often here, and watching or listening to them through TRP-colored glasses is a lot like hearing them for the first time again. I'm hearing things i didnt notice before, and I feel like I'm learning, and growing listening to them.
I think Iliza is a great comic, and it feels odd to hear TRP in a female voice, but I like it. Its a new insight. Old me mightve gotten mad hearing this from a woman. but its packaged well, in an easy-to-swallow gelcap.
[–]Endorsed Contributorleftajar0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Pertinent spot in the clip
[–]deville050 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Shlesinger has gotten funnier
[–]TheRealMouseRat0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
A lot of people didn't find her funny at all, and few female comedians are, but I think she was pretty funny.
[–]thebalrog_ofmorgoth-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
am i the only one that thinks she's like 5x funnier because she's hot? honestly, tina and amy are a couple of lesbian trolls compared to her. I'm laughing and aroused.
[+]brotherjustincrowe-6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Know the difference between an amused master's chuckle and a beta's retarded guffawing.
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's not what he said and that's not what he meant.
He meant exactly what he said. Fucking laugh.. Laugh at how stupid you are, your mistakes, shit you've done.
"Know the difference between an amused master's chuckle and a betas retarded guffawing"
Are you fucking kidding me with this shit? An amused masters chuckle... Wow.. So profound.. I'm going to start by laughing at your dumbass.
[–]ManOfGrapes-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What I think of when a hoe starts hamstering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SjmL_WVI4A
[–]1Dev_on-3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That word German? I'm usually not surprised by vocabulary
[–]1cover200 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, he didn't say "lachen". I think that word could be even on the new dumbed-down SAT.
[–]NeopolitanAfterglow0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not German. Guffawing is an onomatopoeia.
[–]Endorsed ContributorWe_Are_Legion-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_47A9Z28U3I
You can do anything with confidence. Never forget that PUArtistry is supposed to be fun. With a :)
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The girl at 1:34 has more charm/game than the guy who responds with "I'll take what I can get" oh man I couldn't NOT laugh at that shit.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yeah that was pretty cringe-worthy. She actually gave him an in with a pretty easy shit test, "maybe you want it on the lips, boss!"
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Holy shit she was flirty as hell, she fucking opens herself and gives him all these IoIs. And he hasn't got a fucking clue! Jesus fuck. He even goes "really?!" as she approaches as to imply "she's so out of my league." Which is when she replies "not in the place that you want." You know, if he hadn't had freaked her out slightly with that, judging her confidence (which is pretty high, esp. by chick standards) I think she would have opened with a mouth kiss. He done talked himself into a demotion with that DLV. Maybe I'm over-analysing, but that's how I see it.
[–]Kaladar0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Very insightful, excellent breakdown of the interaction. I honestly would have handled that situation badly as well.
I just watched it 10x and I'm almost blushing a little! She's good, I wanna start gaming in THAT tier of woman.
Not over analyzing, pretty much spot on.
"Maybe you want it on the lips boss!"
"Sweetie, if I wanted it on the lips I woulda got it on the lips."
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Can someone give a tl;dr? I made it to 2 minutes and had to give up.
[–]REDitor1000 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Don't bother. I couldn't make it that far either, then i read the comments here and finished it. Wish i hadn't.
She just explains hamster rationalizing but its not funny.
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Can someone summarize the video? Couldn't do more than a minute
[–]peelen[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She basically is explaining "how girls are thinking", and she seems to be quite accurate in it, honest and intelligent, and of course because it's stand up also funny
She just explains hamster rationalizing. And how you felt watching that first minute is how you will feel through the rest of the video.
[–]tits_out_forTheBoys-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
There is a lot of good quality information here, but some times I think there is too much rage.
Completely agree with OP on this point.
When people hit the "subscribe" button on this sub, I wish there was a popup that says LEAVE YOUR NEGATIVITY AT THE DOOR OR GTFO.
There's no room in this sub for sulking and bitching. Shit happens. Learn from it and move on.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Uhm, this forum is to help people accept Red Pill truth.
You're the one who sounds mad, actually...
lmao
[–]tits_out_forTheBoys0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Please explain how I sound mad
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
All caps, bold, telling people how to act or "GTFO"
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Advising taking women's advice on the female brain
200 upvotes. Smells like Seddit in here.
[–]juanqunt-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's good to laugh when interacting with women... show that you're chill.
But I didn't find that woman comedian funny at all and I find standup comedy awkward in general. I prefer to just make up jokes on the spot in normal conversations while referencing specific things that just happened or inside jokes, etc.
[–]StarDestinyGuy-3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Anyone else watch that video? I didn't find her funny at all. She says things that are honest about women, how they lie and manipulate, but that's not funny, that's just sad and irritating.
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