Actual censorship of /r/MensRights

sillymod · 2017-02-07T22:24:38+00:00

/r/MensRights has been making it to /r/all recently. The admins are changing that. They have created a new filter called "popular", which...

[–]the_unseen_one 96 points97 points98 points 9 years ago (214 children) | Copy Link

[–]DarthSunshine 17 points18 points19 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]cryobabe 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rethgil 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 58 points59 points60 points 9 years ago* (176 children) | Copy Link

TBH it's not even just about "hateful" and "harassing." Over the past year this sub has become garbage. People like /u/cryobabe just post dumb irrelevant shit every day, and the top posts on /r/mensrights look like /r/tumblrinaction more often than not. Most of the posts here that make /r/all are things actual MRAs should be embarassed over. I hate to say it but I can't blame people for filtering us out of /r/all and if /u/sillymod and the others actually cared about this, maybe the mods should commit to making /r/mensrights a subreddit for actually discussing men's rights instead of tumblr circlejerking and shitposting that it is now. Half the people here aren't even MRAs and don't care about our issues, they only come here to join the anti-SJW circlejerk which just creates more of those posts on /r/all. I've seen countless comments on our /r/all posts from people who support the MRM generally, but who can't support this subreddit because of how pathetic so many of our posts are and how little the /r/all posts here have to do with men's rights.

It's probably because the posts that were making it to /r/all got a lot of people thinking and sympathizing with men's plights

Many times it did the exact opposite, and the message we sent to /r/all was "men's rights are a joke"

If you want people to stop filtering /r/mensrights from /r/all, why don't users here stop upvoting trash to /r/all and why don't the mods start enforcing rules so this sub discusses men's issues? This isn't the admin's fault, most users on reddit chose to filter this sub because this sub kept reaching /r/all with posts that were total garbage

[–][deleted] 31 points32 points33 points 9 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AloysiusC 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sillymod[S] 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (97 children) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (96 children) | Copy Link

Reddit admins are only filtering us because other users individually filtered this sub. And they filtered this sub because /r/mensrights posts that reach /r/all have little to do with men's issues. The fact that this is clearly not a subreddit for men's issues not only drives away people who actually want to discuss men's issues (which is why MensLib is over 17k users now and growing almost 1,000/month, many of them former users here), it also attracts people who aren't MRAs but are just anti-SJWs. We're losing MRAs and replacing them with people who don't support our actual message. MRAs are anti-SJW but don't make the mistake of thinking all anti-SJWs are on our side. Which is why we have actual neo-Nazis posting here now, why comments calling men "manginas" and "cucks" aren't being downvoted like they used to, and why I recently had an argument about whether or not women should be allowed to vote and saw somebody being upvoted for calling Warren Farrell a "pussy" while they argued that egalitarianism has no place in the men's rights movement. Everything our critics used to smear us with is now becoming true, because the lack of rules is driving away people who want to discuss equal rights while encouraging posters who just want a large anti-SJW sub to preach to.

This is supposed to be a men's rights sub. There's nothing wrong with "silencing" posts that aren't relevant to men's rights. /r/news deletes posts that aren't news. /r/science deletes posts that aren't about science. And you should be deleting posts that aren't about men's issues. They won't be silenced, they can still go to relevant subs like /r/TIA, /r/KIA, /r/SJIA, /r/SJWHate. But /r/mensrights should be for men's rights

A couple of recent posts to illustrate the point:

This post, a TIA-tier post from a feminist twitter saying "your fat stigma is racist." That didn't quite reach /r/all, but it got 344 upvotes. Can you tell me what that has to do with men's rights? What men's issues are being discussed? How does that post help men in any way? It's not even about gender, it's about how "fat stigma is racist." It violates both the low-effort rule and the off-topic rule.

Meanwhile one of the world's largest media outlets just featured a story about widespread false rape accusations in India and it only got 22 votes here.

This has always been a problem but it has gotten worse. The election brought over new people to reddit from /pol/ who don't support equality, but who do hate SJWs. Meanwhile, MensLib has taken thousands of former MRAs who actually wanted to discuss men's issues. The moderators of MensLib are assholes, but a lot of the users they took from us were valuable contributors here who just got fed up with the low-quality off-topic posts flooding the board.

You don't need to censor people's language, all we're asking for is that the sidebar rules actually be enforced. The sidebar already says "No advice animals or other low-effort image or text posts" and "Off-Topic posts will be removed." All you need to do is actually enforce those rules, and most of the misogynists and white nationalists won't have any reason to come here anymore and will leave on their own. People aren't filtering this sub out of /r/all or switching to MensLib because they hate men or love feminism, they're doing it because they're disappointed in how often the posts from here that reach /r/all aren't actually about men's issues.

[–]knightofsidonia 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (93 children) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thewornoakdesk 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (88 children) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (47 children) | Copy Link

Be interested to talk to that user as well

We've talked about it before. The issues MRAs like me have with you is that you created your sub to spread lies about MRAs, not out of any genuine concern for men's issues. You claim that the Men's Rights Movement began as a conservative backlash against feminism by men who wanted to keep traditional gender roles, an obvious lie. You refuse to acknowledge the history of the feminist movement opposing equal rights for men and refuse to acknowledge that MRAs repeatedly did try to work with feminists for equality, but feminists kept fighting against. Your mods censor discussions criticizing any aspect of mainstream feminism because you have to keep your lie alive that it's only the extremists who have any problem. Any time the media runs an anti-MRA hitpiece (like that NYMag article citing lies from David Futrelle) you MensLibbers lap it up. Your moderators come from places like ShitRedditSays. Your subreddit doesn't criticize anything liberal or praise anything conservative. When a conservative anti-feminist MP repeatedly makes headlines for raising awareness of men's issues, your sub largely ignores him because it doesn't fit your narrative. When Hillary Clinton runs an anti-male campaign, to follow up the anti-male presidency of Obama, your sub won't criticize them because it goes against the narrative.

If you actually cared at all about men's rights you would try working with the one group of people who have been fighting for equal rights for men for the past 40+ years. But instead you chose to make us enemy #1 and repeatedly spread lies about our movement. I checked your post history when the sub was made. You never talked about men's issues anywhere before making MensLib. You don't care about men, you only care about re-writing history to make feminism look good and make MRAs look bad

EDIT: For an example of how awful your sub is, here's one of your recent highly upvoted posts. The post has many lies and straw-mans the MRM. Not only is it one of your top all-time posts, but you yourself have the top comment, thanking the OP and explaining that spreading lies about MRAs is "right along our philosophical lines"

EDIT 2: In my comment above I criticized /r/mensrights for upvoting troll posts that didn't have any relevance to men's issues, while an article from BBC about false rape accusations in India got less attention. But at least that article was still posted here multiple times, whereas your sub never talks about false accusations at all because women being able to ruin an innocent man's life is something feminists continue to defend, and you can't even talk about false accusations without being anti-feminist

[–]knightofsidonia 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess my comment before was poorly worded. My point is that a lot of people are getting fed up with what this sub has become and are looking for an alternative. I went to MensLib at first looking for an alternative, but I've been involved with the men's rights movement long enough to see that they weren't honest about wanting to help men. But for people who are new to this and only recently started looking into men's issues, they won't see all of the lies spread on MensLib and so those people see MensLib as a better alternative to here. And when thousands of people are getting their information from MensLib, thousands of people are now believing those lies. Fixing the problems on /r/mensrights that drive some of these people to MensLib would combat that problem. It's not going to be good for MRAs when new people who are looking to find out information about men's issues go to MensLib instead of here

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

I'll be honest, I've been thinking about how to reply to this for a couple of days because I'm really not sure what you want me to do with it. The points on which we differ philosophically - the places we might actually have a productive conversation - are so entangled with the points of extreme exaggeration or outright dishonesty (did you even read the comment you quote me on? Because it has nothing to do with trashing the MRM) I have a hard time believing this is supposed to be in good faith.

I guess one thing I can address is your assertions about my motives. I've admitted numerous times in the past that I'm a relative latecomer to gender issues. I've been involved in various social justice topics for... jeez, how old am I now, twenty years I guess? But it's true, I didn't involve myself in gender issues until about a year before I started MensLib, and for most of that time I was just observing. And boy, did I observe.

What I observed is a movement of men whose issues are legitimate, who have wrecked their reputation and caused a societal backlash to the issues they stand for by focusing on outrage and confrontation, and allowed their movement to be spoken for by some really nasty people (in before "you could say the same thing about feminism": there are about a million different flavors of feminism, and MensLib has clearly and repeatedly disavowed regressive feminism - yes, we ban SRS-style Gender Wars nonsense as well). The top post on /r/MensRights on Saturday was a picture of three young women, one of whom was holding a dumb sign. This is not a men's issue. This is just manufactured outrage over some rando with a bad opinion. You ask why I didn't involve myself with the MRM once I started to be active in men's issues? Because that kind of garbage is bad for men, individually and as a movement.

I may have come late to the game, but I do care deeply about addressing the real issues facing men. We have to be better activists and advocates if we want men's issues to be taken seriously. What's really sad is that, reading your other comments here, you know this is true.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

What I observed is a movement of men whose issues are legitimate, who have wrecked their reputation and caused a societal backlash to the issues they stand for by focusing on outrage and confrontation

Your observation was simply wrong. What you don't understand is that, no amount of being respectful worked. You seem to think we haven't tried that. Well we have for a long time. And those who stuck with it like Warren Farrell still just get called rape apologists.

Most of our existence, feminists outright denied that men even have any issues. The only option we had was to say "screw what they say about us" and then, and only then, did we start getting noticed.

If we hadn't done that, your sub wouldn't even exist. It's not the first attempt of its kind btw. There were at least two before you.

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

Well, we must just be exceptionally lucky, then, because we've had - continue to have, in fact - tremendous success in recruitment and awareness-raising by focusing on substantive issues and carefully moderating for civility. The kind of feminist backlash you're describing, we've experienced only from a very small number of kind of unhinged individuals who don't represent, well, anyone.

By way of analogy, I'll admit the MRM has raised the profile of men's issues - but they've done it in the same way the "all men are rapist pigs" SCUM Manifesto-types did during second-wave feminism. That group was eventually replaced by a more productive and inclusive feminism. There are parallels there, and unless MR and the broader MRM clean up their act, the comparison is going to grow more stark. Hell, even the other user I'm talking to who thinks I'm some kind of feminist agent provocateur thinks MR has lost its way.

[–]Badgerz92 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

(did you even read the comment you quote me on? Because it has nothing to do with trashing the MRM)

Your comment was praising an article, and that article was trashing the MRM with lies.

and MensLib has clearly and repeatedly disavowed regressive feminism

No, MensLib insists that only an extremist minority of feminists are regressive. You don't disavow academic feminists or feminist organizations or feminist leaders or even Barack Obama who oppose equal rights for men. You disavow tumblr SJWs and defend all the misandry from the mainstream feminists, and even ban any discussion of it on your sub. We just had a feminist President who opposed equal rights for men and your sub that supposedly cares about men's issues wouldn't discuss it (and I had a comment deleted for pointing it out) because it goes against your narrative that only minor SJWs without any influence are anti-male.

but I do care deeply about addressing the real issues facing men.

Why should I believe this? You repeatedly lie about both MRAs and feminism, why should I believe you aren't lying about this? You don't care about men's issues, you just care about pushing the narrative that feminism is good and MRAs are bad no matter how many lies you have to tell to convince people of it. MRAs started as feminists, but you lie and say we started as regressive traditionalists. MRAs tried for years to work with feminists, Warren Farrell still called himself a feminist long after feminists turned on him. Yet you lie and say MRAs were anti-feminist who never tried to work with feminists. Feminists however always opposed us, but you lie and say it's only the extremist minority that oppose MRAs and that feminists were always our "natural allies" that we opposed for no reason.

You are trying to re-write history to cover up feminist misandry. You are trying to erase the reality of people like Warren Farrell, Karen Decrow, and Erin Pizzey. You claim they were just bitter misogynists who never had any reason for going against feminism. You claim that if they just tried harder to get along with feminism, feminism would have supported them. That's a load of bullshit and as somebody who has been active in the MRM for 20 years I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me that feminists were always our ally and that we never had any reason to disagree with them. It's an insult to myself and everybody else who had to fight to get men's issues taken seriously while feminists like you were busy assuming that men had all the privilege already.

What's really sad is that, reading your other comments here, you know this is true.

I went to MensLib at first looking for an alternative, but as somebody who's been in the MRM for 20 years I was disgusted at how much you lie about our movement. Right away I knew you were full of shit and I knew neither you nor MensLib was about helping men.

you know this is true

I also know that we have to disagree with people who are anti-male, which for some reason you disagree with. You think that MRAs should have supported a movement that hated everything we stood for. I also know that MRAs didn't "paint natural allies as enemies," feminists were the ones who painted us as the enemy years before we were forced to be anti-feminist. I also know that mainstream, moderate feminism is still very much opposed to equal rights for men. Every feminist organization is still anti-male. All feminist politicians I know of, including Trudeau and Obama, are anti-male. Most everyday feminists still think men have all the privilege, still mock the idea of needing a men's movement or an international men's day or other discussions about men. It's getting better in recent years, but feminism still isn't a pro-equality movement and even just 5 years ago it was almost entirely anti-male. The change we've seen only came after decades of MRAs raising awareness of men's issues, which you are now trying to deny and instead claim it was feminism all along.

And most of all, I know that somebody who lies as much as you do doesn't have good intentions. If you actually cared about men's issues you wouldn't be telling so many lies in order to undermine a movement which has spent decades fighting for equality, nor would you tell so many lies to protect a movement which has spent just as long fighting against equality.

[–]AloysiusC 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Badgerz92 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Be interested to talk to that user as well

We've talked about it before. Drop the fucking act, nobody here is gullible enough to fall for your bullshit. You're a shitty person and you created your sub to spread lies about MRAs, not out of any genuine concern for men's issues. You claim that the Men's Rights Movement began as a conservative backlash against feminism by men who were afraid of losing their privilege. You refuse to acknowledge the history of the feminist movement opposing equal rights for men and refuse to acknowledge that MRAs repeatedly did try to work with feminists for equality, but feminists kept fighting against. Your mods censor discussions criticizing any aspect of mainstream feminism because you have to keep your lie alive that it's only the extremists who have any problem. Any time the media runs an anti-MRA hitpiece (like that NYMag article citing lies from David Futrelle) you MensLibbers lap it up. Your moderators come from places like ShitRedditSays. Your subreddit in general never criticizes anything liberal or praises anything conservative. When a conservative anti-feminist MP repeatedly makes international headlines for raising awareness of men's issues and convincing Parliament to hold a discussion on male issues, your sub largely ignores him because it doesn't fit your narrative. When Hillary Clinton runs an anti-male campaign, to follow up the anti-male presidency of Obama, your sub won't criticize them because it goes against the narrative.

If you actually cared at all about men's rights you would try working with the one group of people who have been fighting for equal rights for men for the past 40+ years. But instead you chose to make us enemy #1 and repeatedly spread lies about our movement. You don't care about men, you only care about re-writing history to make feminism look good and make MRAs look bad

[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]freemale101 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I posted this on /r/The_Donald 4 days ago and it was a very minor hit.

A weak male (mentally or physically) cannot disguise his 'handicap'--and is subsequently rejected. But a weak female can disguise the same 'inadequacies'. For example a small puny female is considered kitten-like, cute or 'petite. Sexy. A borderline retarded female might be considered 'dreamy like' or "sultry". A shy country girl. A zany crazy narcissistic sociopath is sexy and "exotic" and her insanities passed off as "flamboyance" or "woman's prerogative"

Sure, its ideological but the hard-core Trump fans are very much anti-feminist (along with anti Globalists, anti PC, anti loony SJW Liberals, anti Islam). They refer to weak sell-out individuals and politicians as "cucks" (i.e cuckolded)--a term MRA's would understand from the bottom of their hearts. I've posted a few basic anti-feminist (MRA) pieces and each time they're generally warmly received. Only the really 'nasty' ones get ignored but NEVER downvoted. So what I'm saying is think about posting there, especially if it can tie in with Trump. That subreddit too has been brigaded, censored and relegated by admins into the sin bin (just like here it seems)

[–]Pornography_saves_li -5 points-4 points-3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

a long time ago I was a mensrights subscriber. I was interested in the idea that there are men-specific issues that were not getting enough attention and really wanted to see what was being done to address some very real concerns.

Men's mental health, substance abuse, suicide rates, veteran care, social pressures to conform to specific standards of strength, masculinity and mannerism. These are all things that I cared about or had effected me at some point.

So imagine my disappointment when the sub steadily became a dumping ground for outrage-porn about random bad things that some bad girl did to some poor guy, countless posts about how bad feminists are, how much easier women have it, how unfair the world is to men and how women or feminists are responsible for all our suffering, and of course the creeping culture of just constantly trying to cast doubt on women's issues, of attacking women and making every issue about women in some way.

This doesn't help. This may feel good, it may feel almost addicting to some people to have their pain validated, to have sources to blame and attack, to have a community that shares those pains and everyone can cry on each others shoulders, but in the end, it does no good for the actual issues that matter.

See, there are large swaths of the population out there of men whom this outrage and misery does not resonate with, and of course half the population is female. These people see these arguments and bickering over really ridiculous issues like video games, dating difficulties, and how feminists on the internet said this terrible thing... and they laugh. This unchecked, petty arguing about tangents and strawmen and low-effort internet rants and memes has made the very term "Men's Rights" into a joke. There are literally young men out there committing suicide because of pressures they are facing about their sexuality, and men drinking themselves to death in epidemic levels and other very serious issues like male victims of domestic abuse that need a concerted, focused attention from men, so that other men and women take notice and actually Care.

See, this is where MRM went off the rails. They are not trying to appeal to people on a level of compassion and caring. Generally, most men and women alike care about each other, they want to see everyone treated well and feel sorry for those who have been hurt or need care in some way. Great movements in the world have seen success when they have made average people feel and see the problems for themselves. Men's Rights has allowed a culture of bitterness, anger and cynicism to create an isolated bubble from the outside world. Outsiders look in and just see what seems like teenagers ranting on the internet about issues that seem overblown or inconsequential.

I left mensrights and feel nothing but embarrassment and disappointment by what the community has become. In this case, being silenced may actually help the cause more than hurt it.

[–]AloysiusC 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dewey_Darl 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AloysiusC 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

If your response to your movement being criticized starts and ends at "but these other unconnected people do bad things", the reader can only assume that the critics are too on point to be discredited.

This is so laughable. You realize we couldn't have this conversation on your sub at all. That's why I made that comment in the first place. You prevent discussion and cover up the dirt with pretty rugs and then come here pointing at how dirty it looks. I'm not even arguing about the dirt - just pointing out the hypocrisy.

You're helping your detractors.

I like there being detractors here. I don't want my beliefs protected.

If you want people to take this community seriously,

Because male suicide or genital mutilation are totally not serious. Unless we talk about them exactly the way you want.

If you want this place to look good

Looking bad comes with the territory of caring about men's issues. Now you're going to tell me it's not like that with you and then I'll just remind you that your main explanation for men's issues is that men are just dumb, primitive and toxic. I mean, if only they did what women did and not be masculine or show their feelings, right? That is not caring about men.

[–]Dewey_Darl 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dewey_Darl 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Then you understand that trivializing men's issues isn't a good idea and if it hadn't been for MRAs talking about things like the suicide problem when nobody else dared, pretty much nobody would now. Especially feminists.

It's precisely our willingness to be unpopular and, in your words, "not be taken seriously", that enabled us to bring such issues into the spotlight. Before that, "men don't have any issues" or "cry me a river" was what we got most often.

Have a good one, and good luck with this place.

Believe it or not, things have improved a lot for us in recent years. Arguing for men's rights is nothing like what it was in earlier days. I think it's because we've transitioned from the mocking/ignoring phases to people fighting us. And since we have the superior explanations for the underlying causes of men's issues, we have a much easier ride now that people feel they have to listen.

[–]URSUSAMERICAN 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Meanwhile you delete even completely ~~benign~~ asinine commentary from your sub.

FTFY.

I can't really understand why there are so many people who attack other communities on the basis that they wish that community was more like [blank] community. That is to say, there is obviously a community that you (or others) cherish or at least agree with to the point that you will defend it and echo some of the common sentiments and try to spread that same ideology somewhere else and then become miffed when said community rejects some avenues for whatever reasons. If the communities I moderate (not "mine" I do not own them.) were not moderated according to different principles, they would be the same community. MensRights is also heavily moderated, but more towards preventing serious breaches of conduct or narrative, rather than any attempt at focused, guided discussions that feel more open and welcome for others to read and participate. Some people prefer a "Town Hall" or even an "Arena" to a moderated venue. That's fine, sometimes I'll also jump in an arena here and there to rant and rave. But I won't go to an arena like that and then complain that the mods there need to remove the derailing arguments, concern trolls, JAQers, stupid jokes and whatnot.

Also, proof that you were actually an active subscriber needed.

I'll get right on that, is there anything else "needed" that I should divulge? A list of every account I've made on all forums and social media? E-mail accounts while I'm at it? Reddit's server records of logins with IP addresses and timestamps? A photograph of myself holding today's paper to prove I'm alive?

That bit of nonsense aside, I do read, or have spent considerable time in most major men's issues communities to understand the issues that people have, even on the scary or bizarre fringes. It doesn't mean I agree with everyone, but I'm not an inflammatory ideology thumper trying to change the world. I don't need to invent anything to prove a point to anyone, and to suggest otherwise is an attempt at beating scary birds out of imaginary bushes to cast doubt on someone you may not agree with.

Or another way of saying it, does it matter on the internet if you're a dog? On the internet nobody knows you're a dog. But if you can type a thing and get people to understand your point of view, maybe you'll do some good if that's your goal. That makes you a good dog. Yes you are.

[–]AloysiusC 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I can't really understand why there are so many people who attack other communities on the basis that they wish that community was more like [blank] community.

You came here attacking this community.

If the communities I moderate (not "mine" I do not own them.) were not moderated according to different principles, they would be the same community.

Exactly. So comparing what you see between two very differently moderated communities isn't a reliable way to compare the beliefs.

rather than any attempt at focused, guided discussions that feel more open and welcome for others to read and participate.

Nothing is more stifling of discussion than putting some people selectively on auto-filtering regardless of what they say.

That's fine, sometimes I'll also jump in an arena here and there to rant and rave.

Except you apparently won't allow people from the other places to come to yours and discuss things your way. I have followed every rule. Your mod team even acknowledged that. Yet I'm still on auto-filtering.

I'll get right on that, is there anything else "needed"

It's very simple: If you want people to believe you, you need to do more than say "I was an MRA and my eyes were opened by feminists". I.e. you need to give us a reason to believe you. Sure you can choose not to, but then don't complain if people call bullshit.

Or another way of saying it, does it matter on the internet if you're a dog?

I don't care either way. But it was you who came in claiming to be a dog. So, apparently you think it matters. Then I say, give me a reason to believe it.

That makes you a good dog. Yes you are.

If that's supposed to be an insult, I'm not impressed.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You came here attacking this community.

I'm joining a discussion on the state of MR and how I feel about it, by agreeing and supporting with others here who feel the same way. That's what this conversation is about, might wanna scroll up.

Exactly. So comparing what you see between two very differently moderated communities isn't a reliable way to compare the beliefs.

wat.

Nothing is more stifling of discussion than putting some people selectively on auto-filtering regardless of what they say.

Nothing is more difficult for a moderator than a user who consistently tries to push the boundaries and create contention. But don't bring that issue up with me here, I sure didn't. I mean, this was a discussion on the state of MensRights and what it's become, and now it's about how you feel about a mod decision on another sub, concerning you personally. I'm sorry that sub isn't a good fit for you.

It's very simple: If you want people to believe you, you need to do more than say "I was an MRA and my eyes were opened by feminists". I.e. you need to give us a reason to believe you. Sure you can choose not to, but then don't complain if people call bullshit.

Nobody is raising this kind of contention but you. A lot of people here are saying similar stories and people are agreeing in a civil manner. I never said "feminists" changed my views, I said I became disappointed with how MR constantly raises the Feminist Bogyman about every damn issue... such as this conversation, right here. Right now.

give me a reason to believe it.

No. I don't care if someone doesn't believe me, I wasn't here to change people's hearts and minds, I was voicing my agreement with other users here who have had similar bad experiences with MR. I'm sorry I can't dance in the MR meadows with everyone else who loooooves it here. If it's against the rules to make a post like I did without some kind of "verification" then I would gladly delete and move on. Otherwise, you are pretty much just making a longer-winded version of the common low-effort troll-post that says "bullshit, get out" and again, this isn't a court of law, it's the damn internet on reddit. If everyone had to pull out paperwork to prove what they've done, there would be nobody here.

If that's supposed to be an insult, I'm not impressed.

It's not, it's silly reddit humor. You find contention in everything, under every rock. I won't continue this conversation because I made my point, you called bullshit. I shrugged.

[–]tiqr 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So imagine my disappointment when the sub steadily became a dumping ground for outrage-porn about random bad things that some bad girl did to some poor guy, countless posts about how bad feminists are, how much easier women have it, how unfair the world is to men and how women or feminists are responsible for all our suffering, and of course the creeping culture of just constantly trying to cast doubt on women's issues, of attacking women and making every issue about women in some way.

...

I left mensrights and feel nothing but embarrassment and disappointment by what the community has become. In this case, being silenced may actually help the cause more than hurt it.

Same as my story. I was once willing to engage with the issues talked about here, but I gave up on the user base. Far too much hate and pettiness.

[–]circlhat 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

So imagine my disappointment when the sub steadily became a dumping ground for outrage-porn about random bad things that some bad girl did to some poor guy, countless posts about how bad feminists are, how much easier women have it, how unfair the world is to men and how women or feminists are responsible for all our suffering, and of course the creeping culture of just constantly trying to cast doubt on women's issues, of attacking women and making every issue about women in some way.

False Narrative, it seems men talking about their issues is called complaining.

If a women attacks you, you go to jail, and if you talk about it, it's called outrage-porn. It seems men aren't allowed issues.

Also "women issues" are directly related to men, we are painting men as rapist as early as 1 month old, since rape is about gender it would make sense for men to defend themselves and cast doubt on the dangerous man and try to show balance reporting.

most men and women alike care about each other

Doesn't mean anything in the court system, if a women likes you and you don't date her, she will accuse you of rape and you will lose everything.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]circlhat 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

So imagine my disappointment when the sub steadily became a dumping ground for outrage-porn about random bad things that some bad girl did to some poor guy, countless posts about how bad feminists are, how much easier women have it, how unfair the world is to men and how women or feminists are responsible for all our suffering, and of course the creeping culture of just constantly trying to cast doubt on women's issues, of attacking women and making every issue about women in some way.

Because its not like the early days of feminism weren't filled with hate or anything, oh wait it was. MRA's do get mad at some stupid things, but its hypocritical of you feminists to mock it for its hate when your own movement was started out as such. The only difference really is MRA's have the internet to lash out on and feminists didn't back then. But don't let me stop you with your hypocrisy.

This doesn't help. This may feel good, it may feel almost addicting to some people to have their pain validated, to have sources to blame and attack, to have a community that shares those pains and everyone can cry on each others shoulders, but in the end, it does no good for the actual issues that matter.

Tell me /u/BigAngryDinosaur where should men who are upset/angry/etc go to let their anger out? The joke sub MensLib? The sub that is more anti male and doesn't allow any opposing views at all? The sub that ban a male rape victim?

These people see these arguments and bickering over really ridiculous issues like video games, dating difficulties, and how feminists on the internet said this terrible thing... and they laugh.

Like how feminists say the A/C is sexist and how manspreading is such a huge issue, and how people laugh at feminists making such an issue over such things, and you feminists wonder why so few women identify as feminist. Oh you also don't seem to realize you feminists point out dating issues. There's been least couple of threads in MensLib on that, quick delete them before you look like more as a hypocrite.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]NinteenFortyFive points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

then pay up bcuz here I come. /u/findingmrnemo - dont come here on your keyboard horse spewing what could be confusingly construed as sensible. The fact is you have just shown EVERYONE HERE - You know absolutely NOTHING about Sharia law , nor how they operate, nor their means to their end goal. I dont give two flying s**ts if you wanna puff pee pee till the cows come home and you have to carry your lips in your socks from them being stretched out of whack! Im not homophobic- what I am is this: YOU and YOUR TYPE- stay out of the way of us Alpha males! You can offer nothing to the male side of our species. Except to be " stand in females" where sex with women isnt an option. You cant bail hay, plow fields, lift over 40 lbs., work in steel mills, work on oil rigs, be mechanics, ( in fact most of you call AAA to come change your flats). You offer nothing as far as combat physicality. Nor combat mental fortitude. Im not homophobic... I feel the only place for effeminate males are in the kitchen fixing me a damn sandwich and some coffee. Then please go vaccuum my livingroom, wash my truck, and dust the house when youre done. Thats real not phobic. And as far as Islamophobic... YOU BETCHA!!! The only good jihadi is a dead one! And the same goes for their familys except for children who can be trained to tolerate others just as we tolerate gays. BTW... fucking a man up his stinkpipe then cleaning it off with a well bearded mouth does not constitute making love. /u/sillymod may be right, I MAY be extreme. But let me say this extreme times call for people who can meet the extreme measures to bring back balance. Im one of those. Combat hardened, and been clearly through more decades than you or most of your college friends. In fact most college kids are still wiping their assholes from back to front. Your perception of danger and reality is based on Barney the purple dinosaur and Dungeons and Dragons, or World of Warcraft! No reality whatsoever!!! Go preach your crap over in Iran or in Syria where you can learn reality instead of what a book or CNN tells you! I dont have to watch the news to know the reality of Islam... Ive been to war with them fucks and their evil is unlike any enemy since Vlad the impaler. I know because Ive been there. But you?!? You couldnt carry a 90 lb rucksack and an m16 up a flight of stairs! So do me a biggie and stfu. My friends who lost their lives are turning in their graves that us vets havent stomped the gizzards out of such a group of wet behind the ears snowflaky queers yet.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]URSUSAMERICAN 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

This may feel good, it may feel almost addicting to some people to have their pain validated,

you're a feminist. pot/kettle.

for the actual issues that matter.

Conveniently femsplained to us by ivory tower academics like Diane Rosenfeld?

other very serious issues like male victims of domestic abuse that need a concerted, focused attention from men,

Yeah....treatment of Earl Silverman shows this is definitely not the case. Find a man who has been abused and ask him about how "easy" it was to find a fucking shelter next time.

They are not trying to appeal to people on a level of compassion and caring

And "teach boys not to rape" is okay while "girls - don't put your baby in a dumpster" isn't. How fucking compassionate.

Generally, most men and women alike care about each other,

Completely counter to the duluth model. You're full of shit.

You're a man (or claim to be) so fucking act like one.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

you're throwing a lot of names at me, but i'm not talking about any individual cases in my post, which was simply stating why i lost interest and respect for the MR community but not it's original intention.

The louder and most visible people in MR often are hostile, antagonistic and immature, as well as hyper-reactionary and ready to attack rather than communicate and help each other. It's a community that claims to care about men, but the moment they encounter a man with alternative ideas to help each other and pick each other up; men who show heart and compassion to men and women alike, they get attacked and labeled and told they're "not a real man" and other shameful tactics that set back the freedoms that many men wish they had. I believe that inclusiveness will help more to make changes in an unfair society than being an asshole to someone just because I want to look "strong" in front of others. I try to help people here and there, I try to decry hate and bigotry and approach ideas with reason and understanding that many issues are both larger and more nuanced than people like myself or you actually have the full grasp of, so it's better to keep an open mind and actually listen than reject everything that crosses too close to things that trigger powerful emotions and decide for yourself if it's an idea you can integrate in your own life or at least understand well enough to see both sides while retaining your own, ever-evolving ideals and principles.

The constant hostility against women, feminism, liberals, men who don't fit traditional masculinity definitions and other groups and organizations as the only sources of discrimination against men is a terrible tactic in my opinion, as well as completely contrary to my long experience out in the real world where despite whatever specific instances of injustices you carve on your forearms and display to others, at the end of the day most people really just care about what kind of face you show them. People want to be heard and want to have interactions that don't make them uncomfortable before they will open their own minds and potentially change their views. This is because we are all humans who have the capacity to care for each other given the opportunity and understanding. If you reject that possibility, then you are sadly ignorant and/or inexperienced with people or have suffered some form of pain that has clouded your interpretations of life.

[–]URSUSAMERICAN 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]URSUSAMERICAN 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You're posting in mensrights. You're going to have to block me if I trigger you since you have no power here.

You pretend to care about men but don't even try to understand them.

despite whatever specific instances of injustices you carve on your forearms and display to others, at the end of the day most people really just care about what kind of face you show them. People want to be heard and want to have interactions that don't make them uncomfortable before they will open their own minds and potentially change their views. This is because we are all humans who have the capacity to care for each other given the opportunity and understanding.

So thanks for making fun of self harm, for one. And second - you really need to check out the Women are wonderful effect People have the capacity to care for each other? What fantasy world are you living in?!? Women just pretend to care about eachother more than men do, because women are conniving and stick out for the other vagina owners no matter who is actually right. You can pretend that MRA's are callous but we in fact recognize the reality that nobody gives a shit and nobody is going to look out for you but yourself.

[–]BigAngryDinosaur 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]URSUSAMERICAN 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sillymod[S] 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rethgil 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rethgil 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]circlhat 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]galtthedestroyer -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]cryobabe points 9 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Oh /u/badgerz92 famous concern troll here you are

http://i.redd.it/r7ctmecy38by.jpg

[–]Badgerz92 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rethgil 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Badgerz92 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Rethgil -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thewornoakdesk 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]offshoreshellcorp1 points 9 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

I've got to agree with him though. Most of the memes that you're posting aren't very good at garnering sympathy, and often times have glaring factual errors in them that allows our detractors to discredit our larger point. I appreciate the effort, to an extent, but running a meme or two through a fact check would have gone a long way in helping us raise awareness and support for these issues.

[+]cryobabe points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

You can private message me on which of my mensrights posts were "low quality".

Lately I didn't even post much anymore at all...

Thank you

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]cryobabe points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Mgtow are our allies. Everyone knows that

[–]Mr_Incrediboy 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

Despite mensrights doing their best to be neutral

That isn't the trend I've seen.

and not "hateful"

Do I have to start pulling up links?

or "harassing" in any way

Do I have to start quoting users?

The fact of the matter is that users frequently filter out this subreddit from showing up on their /r/all listings. That's person by person, users opting to remove /r/mensrights because they don't wish to be notified of new content from the subreddit. There are a variety of reasons for that. From ideological indifference to the subreddit to a disinterest in politics, to a direct opposition to either the rhetoric, language, or beliefs. I'm not going to go into judging them because I don't know them. But I've been to this subreddit a number of times, and I have been neutral and gotten responses of hate and vitriol, including -- and I can't believe I'm saying this -- threats from users in this subreddit via private message.

It's one thing to believe that a large subreddit should not be clipped from in-site promotions because it addresses serious issues; /r/mensrights is loaded down on the daily with articles and opinion pieces that highlights key flaws in the social and legal landscapes around the world. But it is also loaded down with flatly irrelevant pieces and memes that serve only to fuel indignant vitriol toward dissenting views. It is to the point where users such as myself feel sincere hesitation and consternation at just saying what we feel and believe, having instead to carefully reposition wording, avoid using certain phrases or expressing certain views because the response never turns out to be - shall we say, friendly.

If this subreddit wants to get its standing back, perhaps some self-reflection is in order. The administrators of the subreddit need to have a look at the types of content being submitted and decide if its users are really sticking to the mission statement, of addressing and discussing men's rights. And really, just that.

The image memes blasting radical feminists, insulting LGBTs, posting misleading statistics and conflating issues -- it serves only to degrade the value of /r/mensrights over time.

[–]Lethn 23 points24 points25 points 9 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]tehDemonseye 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

If this is true then why haven't you posted this up for people to see? Or are you one of those people who think that criticism equals 'hate' and 'vitriol'?

The easier option was to block the user. I'm not a frail flower; this is the internet. I wasn't mentioning it to curry attention or sympathy, but simply to make a point.

And no, I do make a clear distinction between criticism and hate. A quick mosey through my post history would clear that right up for ya.

Of course you fucking do if you're trying to accuse somebody of harassing you, that's how due process works you muppet.

Wow. That didn't take long. I was being rhetorical in the question. I assumed I would have to quote users to drive the point home. I don't like quoting people who trash me, because it would seem self-serving - and I haven't been to mensrights since the last unfortunate encounter I had with 3 users some months ago. As you can imagine, a tidy mountain of new threads has emerged since then that I have not read, and the old threads I'm familiar with sit in a backlog further back than Donald Trump's election win.

So you can imagine the workload I inadvertently set for myself. Gimme about nine or ten days to catch up.

And try to resist the insults, wouldja?

[–]equiposeur 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 18 points19 points20 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rethgil 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_unseen_one 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Hon, I never claimed to be an MRA. I am not an activist, so the term "MRA" logically does not apply.

Yes, I am in favour of gun control. I'm Canadian. How are gun issues Men's Rights issues?
I am not a fan of Milo. He uses shock tactics to rake in money. How is Milo a Men's Rights issue?
I support multiculturalism, and thus am not anti-Muslim. How is Islam a Men's Rights issue?
I support and defend individuals who are speaking fact, regardless of which camp they belong to. How is that a Men's Rights issue?
"Opposes the discussion of male social issues"? I've never opposed discussion of anything. If you're referring to social issues like the gender disparity of homelessness, earnings and wealth, job safety and workplace death, suicide, custody rights... then you're in for a shock, because I don't drift left on those at all.

The problem with your remarks, I believe, is that you're expecting me to universally tow the line for you. I have my own system of values. Some will roughly align with yours. Some will not. I'm not going to twist my beliefs and values out of shape just to avoid rubbing you the wrong way. That would be an affront to who I am, and my body of experience.

[–]the_unseen_one 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thewornoakdesk -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]the_unseen_one 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I personally am a liberal who voted for Bernie, and left the presidential section empty in the general elections, so obviously I do not think that. (I'm a gun toting liberal who falls pretty far down and left on the political axes http://imgur.com/a/ZnAIF ) I do, however, realize that people who share many "progressive" values tend to be feminists and anti-MRAs. I think the red flags I pointed out are completely valid.

WHen I posted that, I went to the other poster's top comments and controversial comments to get a decent idea of what they regularly said and supported. There was ZERO supporting men's rights, and numerous progressive and feminist posts there, which is why I made my determination. Yes, it was only a couple minutes of perusal, but if you doubt what I found then you can feel free to look yourself.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'll insult you because you're trying to paint the entire subreddit over 3 fucking users who were mean to you

I didn't realize I'd have to point out that I've had far more than just 3 awful encounters here since I first joined the site, and only two of those encounters ever occurred outside mensrights. But you're kinda doing exactly what they did before the threat PMs came, so this'll be interesting, I'm sure.

and you blocked them anyway so it's a non-issue if they aren't bothering you anymore.

Yes, I believe I pointed that out. As I said, I mentioned it not for favour or sympathy, but as a conveyance of information for a frame of reference.

This is absolutely typical of the people who whine about 'hate' on the internet

Except that I'm not whining about it. You're putting words in my mouth - after I clearly said that it's not about whimpering. I dealt with the problem months ago, and left the subreddit alone. Actually, for this reason.

you should see the comments I've gotten from people that get pissy with me, especially when I dare to criticise Islam.

Okay, you just did exactly what I did. So how is what I said whining and what you said not whining?

Come back to me when you've got real problems.

Right now, you are my problem. Your knee-jerk hit-back mentality is exactly the kind of thing that is keeping people from wanting mensrights on their /r/all. Come back to me when you remember that this is a discussion forum, not a place to flex your dick size.

[–]Lethn 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

People are 'knee-jerking' because like so many people who whine about places where they have free speech you're trying to advocate censorship and control.

The administrators of the subreddit need to have a look at the types of content being submitted and decide if its users are really sticking to the mission statement, of addressing and discussing men's rights. And really, just that.

Maybe instead of lecturing others about self-reflection and getting pissy with those who call you out on your bullshit you should think about exactly what your plans for the subreddit entail. There are so little places one can freely discuss these issues and even openly criticise Feminism to begin with and you actually want to place restrictions on all of that based on what I presume will be your own personal guidelines?

Yeah, the more I read your posting habits as you respond to me the more I am not surprised you've gotten the criticism that you have, just another in the long list of twats telling us all how to live and what we're allowed to talk about.

I really don't have much sympathy and you just debunked yourself as well, yes, this is a place for a discussion, it's not your personal safe space, stop pretending it should be.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

People are 'knee-jerking' because like so many people who whine about places where they have free speech you're trying to advocate censorship and control.

I'm advocating governance. The subreddit advertises itself as a place to discuss men's rights. It doesn't list itself as a place to shitpost about feminists.

Maybe instead of lecturing others about self-reflection and getting pissy with those who call you out on your bullshit you should think about exactly what your plans for the subreddit entail.

Lecturing; that escalated quickly, didn't it. So offering an analysis and suggestions to remedy a problem that bitching like children won't solve is equal to lecturing. Okay. I'll just go with it.

But the "getting pissy" part is what really confuses me. I'm assuming you think you've called me out on some bullshit. I don't think so.

There are so little places one can freely discuss these issues and even openly criticise Feminism to begin with and you actually want to place restrictions on all of that

"So few places". Sorry, it's my inner grammar-nazi.

But give a boo to Anti-Feminism and The AntiFeminist, two fun examples of how easy it is to use the search function to find what you're looking for. It took me 3 seconds to find them. They're even allied with this subreddit.

based on what I presume will be your own personal guidelines?

No. Look at the sidebar, hon.

The Men's Rights subreddit is a place for those who wish to discuss men's rights and the ways said rights are infringed upon.

You literally cannot miss it unless you're actively and intentionally ignoring it.

Yeah, the more I read your posting habits as you respond to me the more I am not surprised you've gotten the criticism that you have, just another in the long list of twats telling us all how to live and what we're allowed to talk about.

You started by calling me a "muppet". You set the tone for the responses. You've been replying to me with the class and dignity usually seen in grade school bullies. Now you've stepped it up to just calling me a twat. And I haven't called you anything. I have only judged what you say, not what or who you are. That's what separates you and me; the approach to the discussion.

I have no desire to tell you how to live, nor did I do such a thing. Please quote me where I did that if you disagree. Additionally, I did not tell you what you're allowed to talk about. I simply relayed the mission statement of the subreddit and recommended to the owners and operators of the subreddit that they evaluate how they regard that statement in terms of its representation by the actual discussions that occur. If they want to be on /r/all, they have to appeal to readers - that's not my judgment, that is purely statistical fact. And what is more important? Being visible to a community of millions? Or being at your own whim to shitpost about TERFs and Tumblr Feminists out of boredom? Your call.

I really don't have much sympathy

For the third time now (or fourth, I don't remember, and it's very late), I was never asking for sympathy. Even if I was, I would have to be actually dangerously insane to believe that you'd be the one offering it.

and you just debunked yourself as well, yes, this is a place for a discussion, it's not your personal safe space, stop pretending it should be.

How did I debunk myself? I never asked for this to be a safe space, nor am I under any illusion that it should be. But thanks for being presumptuous and thinking that I want safe spaces.

Lemme ask you. What discussion comes from a meme that grossly overgeneralizes and satirizes activists that don't align with men's rights advocacy? What enlightenment is to be had? Because I read them and just kinda groan at most of them for the low effort meme-dumping.

The in-depth discussions on marital law, child care, legal rights, circumcision, misandrist scandals or andro-exclusionary affairs I've read here, while often heated and contentious, at least fit with the described goal of the subreddit.

[–]Lethn 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

You started by calling me a "muppet". You set the tone for the responses. You've been replying to me with the class and dignity usually seen in grade school bullies.

For the third time now (or fourth, I don't remember, and it's very late), I was never asking for sympathy. Even if I was, I would have to be actually dangerously insane to believe that you'd be the one offering it.

You really just don't consider for one second that the reason your getting such hostile responses is because of shit like this do you? Like I said, you're acting just like most people who call for censorship and try to slander ( You're been pretty much borderline doing that now ) other people. You're claiming you want 'civility' and all that other crap while simultaneously making all sorts of false claims about people in the subreddit here, I see that sort of behaviour constantly and it's fucking annoying.

I'm calling you a muppet and a twat because you are behaving pathetically, that's hardly being a 'bully' especially with the kind of shit I've had directed towards me for advocating free speech no matter what. I get criticised by fellow Anarchists for saying that neo-nazis have the right to free speech the same as anti-capitalists do and I think both groups are massive cunts.

I'm advocating governance. The subreddit advertises itself as a place to discuss men's rights. It doesn't list itself as a place to shitpost about feminists.

I don't want this subreddit to be governed, I'm an Anarchist, it's quite obvious that your determined to lobby this no matter what and you want to screech at people who don't agree with you. It's no wonder you've had the problems you've had here as many people here support free speech as much as I do.

Yes, guess what? Meme's fall under free speech, if you don't fucking like that go make your own subreddit, find another place that caters to your bullshit, or perhaps, I don't know, not read it? That's always an option that I pick if I can't be bothered dealing with certain topics on a particular day.

Try acting like an adult and take some responsibility for yourself, you can always close the browser if you find things too stressful on a particular day. Nothing is stopping you, seeing this behaviour from people is just sad to watch. You keep saying you just want 'guidelines' and you're not trying to censor people, sorry but that's how it always starts and I'm not having any of it, quit trying to pretend that what you're advocating for is perfectly innocent.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You really just don't consider for one second that the reason your getting such hostile responses is because of shit like this.

So you are allowed to directly call me a twat, but I can't say that your reply is immature? And you talk to me about safe spaces?

You're claiming you want 'civility' and all that other crap while simultaneously making all sorts of false claims about people in the subreddit here.

What false claims? I haven't named any names. You're grasping at straws.

I'm calling you a muppet and a twat because you are behaving pathetically, that's hardly being a 'bully' especially with the kind of shit I've had directed towards me for advocating free speech no matter what.

Uh.... huh. So your argument is "other people call me names, so I can call other people names, that's how it works"?

And my remark about grade school is inaccurate how?

I don't want this subreddit to be governed, I'm an Anarchist, it's quite obvious that your determined to lobby this no matter what and you want to screech at people who don't agree with you. It's no wonder you've had the problems you've had here as many people here support free speech as much as I do.

So you don't want governance because you're an anarchist. Well, you're not the only one in the world, sunshine. We don't have to do it your way. That's what freedom is.

I have no idea how you got it into your head that I want censorship, nor have I a clue how you arrived at the "screeching" conclusion, but hey. It's already painfully apparent that you just enjoy starting a fight with people. I don't want to comment on your motivations or your politics. Don't care to learn about them. Your tactics and rhetoric don't offer me much hope that compromise and mutual respect exist anywhere in the playbook. I'd love to be proven wrong there.

Yes, guess what? Meme's fall under free speech, if you don't fucking like that go make your own subreddit, find another place that caters to your bullshit, or perhaps, I don't know, not read it? That's always an option that I pick if I can't be bothered dealing with certain topics on a particular day.

Wow, that was absolutely not my point, sugar. The users of reddit at-large are removing /r/mensrights from their listings so it does not appear on /r/all has reached the point where reddit simply does not include it for any users unless it is specifically added. I come here voluntarily (plus, I never use /r/all) and read around because occasionally I find an article worth reading.

The mod posted this thread to raise awareness at what appears to be an unfair exclusion, when the reality of the situation is far from cut-and-dried. There are reasons that the users are delisting /r/mensrights, and those reasons have compelled reddit to prevent it from appearing on the "All" page. This has nothing to do with me wanting anything. All I did was offer, as I said, an analysis and suggestion on the state of affairs between the subreddit and reddit as a whole.

You have quite masterfully conflated that issue with one you have concocted in your head to delegitimize my position and postulations.

Try acting like an adult and take some responsibility for yourself, you can always close the browser if you find things too stressful on a particular day. Nothing is stopping you, seeing this behaviour from people is just sad to watch.

Except that, again, I don't really care if the mods heed my advice or not. I'm still going to re-visit from time to time. But they're the ones worried about being visible on /r/all. And you're the one jumping to all these conclusions. It's like you're having a separate conversation with me in your imagination, and I'm preaching regressive feminist censorship and anti-male fascism at you. Good heavens. Chill pill.

[–]contractor808 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rethgil 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm afraid I don't remember you, and I disagree that my views are "often in direct conflict with Men's Rights issues". I stand in favour of logic and reason, ration, and common sense.

Circumcision: I believe that while the parents do have the right to make decisions for their child, that the science on the practice is deeply flawed and hasn't been revisited with a scrunitizing eye in decades.

Father's Rights: I believe that a father has the right to custody of his child. No child should be without their parents.

Male Rape: I believe it is a real thing, and that it is just as serious an issue in need of law reform as you can get in a first-world country.

Feminism: I'm against it.

Scholarships: If there can be girls-only scholarships, there should be boys-only ones too.

"Listen and Believe": Illogical nonsense.

Misandry: Bigoted bullshit. The old classic nuggets of "KillAllMen" and "MaleTears" made me sad for the human race. The idea that a few filthy-minded weasels justify the denigration of an entire gender is ludicrous in my mind.

Mansplaining/spreading: One-sided lunacy aimed at making men ashamed of their bodies in an ironic time when feminists were preaching body positivity.

Have I made my point yet? I don't have to be a right-wing men's rights activist, nor do I have to universally agree on all points in order to support the equal representation of men's rights. I just don't see everything that goes up on this subreddit as being relevant to that discussion. If you want to interpret that as being in "direct conflict", then I'm afraid there's no resolving that. I don't base my beliefs on the political side I pick. I base my political position on the beliefs I hold. As such, I do not affiliate with the right or the left, nor do I pledge my allegiance to feminism or men's rights advocacy. Both groups have good points and bad points.

Not sure what else I can say.

[–]contractor808 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I was browsing the top threads on this sub and saw your comment:

The argument of Swiss law is that on having a child, it needs a full-time parent to provide proper rearing and care. If an unmarried couple breaks up after having a child, the caretaking parent will not have an income. Forcing a parent to give up the job of raising their child so that they can dump it into a daycare and let some state worker "raise" it sickens many parents of young children, especially when their intention was to be a stay-at-home parent.

As such, (just going to use "mother" for simplicity here), the mother will need a source of income in order to meet their needs. Yes, it's an expensive burden on the father. But if you don't think you're going to keep the oven, don't put a bun in it. Then it won't cost you anything. Unmarried couples without children will not have an alimony issue.

It's pretty clear where the conflict lies in this statement regarding the "Yes it's expensive for the man, but tough shit." attitude. You don't think that's going to get a (perhaps irritated) response?

And later you bring up the literal definition of the word "debate" and then say you can't be bothered to look up the law cited by another poster. You aren't a person who's pleasant to engage with.

That's why I remembered your username. After the third or fourth time replying to you on different topics I had to see who it was that just kept posting and posting replies. It just didn't seem worth it. I wasn't learning anything, and it didn't seem as though any of my points were coming across. I don't expect to change someone's opinion, but they can at least end up saying "Well I disagree." and be done with it. I felt like I was talking in circles and just about every time I just stop engaging because it would be endless.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's pretty clear where the conflict lies in this statement regarding the "Yes it's expensive for the man, but tough shit." attitude. You don't think that's going to get a (perhaps irritated) response?

I didn't expect to be loved for it.

And later you bring up the literal definition of the word "debate" and then say you can't be bothered to look up the law cited by another poster.

He stated to me that he believed that a debate must involve me asking him questions and just absorbing whatever he says. That's not what a debate is.

I never said "I can't be bothered". I told him that it was illogical for someone to make a claim and then tell people who question it "Go look it up". That's poor presentation. If someone asks me to cite my sources, I cite my sources. I do not consider myself out of line by asking the same. And if I cannot cite my sources, I either state so, or I just don't include the claim into my remarks. I never say "Go find it".

You aren't a person who's pleasant to engage with.

Considering this is the only interaction with you I am aware of, I have to admit that you're not making a good first impression yourself. Instead of responding to debate the issues, you have shown up to attack my integrity in order to devalue my entire philosophy - even though it is almost entirely a non-threat to you and yours. Apart from being indifferent to money issues, I peacefully support all men's rights efforts.

I don't expect to change someone's opinion, but they can at least end up saying "Well I disagree." and be done with it. I felt like I was talking in circles and just about every time I just stop engaging because it would be endless.

Perhaps then, you are debating to try and change minds despite protestations of the opposite, and just exhausting yourself when people stand their ground. I go on the facts I have. I change my views as the facts become available that logically require a change in those views. If you were trying to talk your opinions into my head and I wasn't absorbing, then that means you hadn't challenged my views sufficiently using the evidence you presented.

If you want to take it personally, be my guest. I can't exactly stop you. But this? This isn't really going to win you brownie points, now is it. It's just coming off as a desire to start a fight. Fortunately, I'm in a pretty good mood in spite of the disappointing surprise here.

By the way, if you came to the conclusion that interacting with me was just not worth it previously, what are you doing starting something brand-spankin-new now? That seems to beg for a logical sequence of thought to understand. I'm not urging you to respond to this; you don't have to like me. You don't have to agree with me. That's the beauty of an open forum where freedom of speech is honoured. We can both state opposing views and still respect each other - in theory.

You have yourself a pleasant evening. I'm off to do the same :)

[–]Rethgil 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_unseen_one 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't get why you bring that up when /r/feminism and /r/twoxchromosomes do the same thing. Yeah, it doesn't excuse the behavior, but it seems silly for you and reddit to clamp down on this sub while keeping 2x. But I see your point, and maybe I am projecting my own experience on the subreddit onto you and others as if it is the norm, when there are doubtless unsavory elements. Still, it's hardly unique in having shitheads, and this still strikes me as reddit using a flimsy excuse to censor a sub they dislike while giving a pass to much larger, much worse subs to spew whatever hate they desire.

"The administrators of the subreddit need to have a look at the types of content being submitted and decide if its users are really sticking to the mission statement, of addressing and discussing men's rights. And really, just that."

I think we're in full agreement there.

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How are communities selected for “popular”? We selected the top most popular subreddits and then removed: Any NSFW communities Any subreddits that had opted out of r/all. A handful of subreddits that were heavily filtered out of users’ r/all. In the long run, we will generate and maintain this list via an automated process. In the interim, we will do periodic reviews of popular subreddits and adding new subreddits to the list.

How will this work for users? Logged out users will automatically see posts based on the expanded subreddits source as their default landing page. Logged in users will be able to access this list by clicking on “popular” in the top gray nav bar. We’re working on better integrating into the front page but we also want to get users access to the list asap! We are planning on launching this change early next week.

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They're not our rival sub. It's all happened before - feminists creating a "feminist men's movement". Every time they fail. The reason is always the same: Their goal of helping men, to the extent that it's even genuine, is always secondary to the feminist ideology (which is inherently anti-male). So whenever the one clashes with the other (which happens a lot), feminism takes precedence.

As such it's hopelessly ineffective at helping the vast majority of men who find themselves in a gynocentric culture. So they sooner or later give up and tire of being muted or shamed into nodding at toxic masculinity.

What remains is just a bunch of feminists celebrating each other for how stupid and primitive men are and some men grovelling at their feet. Even the leaders tire of it once they realize it's not going anywhere.

Their only hope has been and still is support from above (mainstream or admins promoting them). That's how they even got known at all.

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Title	Actual censorship of /r/MensRights
Author	sillymod
Upvotes	234
Comments	209
Date	February 7, 2017 10:24 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5somjx/actual_censorship_of_rmensrights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/actual-censorship-of-rmensrights.932456 https://theredarchive.com/post/932456

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