"Toxic Masculinity" vs "Internalised Misogyny"

SpicyMarshmellow · 2023-04-07T14:06:03+00:00

Been saying for a while that if terminology was applied consistently, it would be internalized misandry instead of toxic masculinity. That toxic masculinity is the term we get speaks volumes by itself.

And yeah, it's because feminism asserts that it's men who built the whole situation. Because for them, it's about assigning blame.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2023-04-07T15:12:20+00:00

To be honest I think both should be reclassified into "toxic gender roles".

More than anything else, the problem is that while women are largely permitted by society to not be traditionally feminine, men are still expected to be traditionally masculine.

Sure, they call it toxic masculinity, and they say it's OK for men to open up emotionally. But the same society still shames them when they do talk. Still expects them to solve their own problems (while women's are for us all to solve). Still withdraws emotional affection from them once they hit the preteen age (or in the case of trans men, as soon as they start presenting as male).

The reason why "toxic gender roles" have to be separated into "internalised misogyny" and "toxic masculinity" is that women no longer have to be feminine. So feeling like they have to be can be seen as internalised self-hatred instead of "toxic femininity". Men still have to be masculine, so they aren't allowed to hate it. It's only "toxic" if it causes problems.

TheTinMenBlog · 2023-04-07T13:17:05+00:00

When women have an issue, we rightly ask – how can we change society?

But when men have an issue, we only seem to ask – how can men change themselves?

As we’ve grown used to, men are often framed as the instigator of everything wrong in the world. Not just for themselves, but for everybody, everywhere, and for quite literally all of time.

It’s a lot to take in.

Especially for boys who too often grow up being told they are inherently problematic, oppressive, tyrannical, violent and toxic.

Worse still, these words are often spat from the mouths of those who claim to be the most virtuous of society; the great guardians of morality, and noble warriors for humankind.

Where I am sat, I hear so many stories of young men and boys being blamed, shouted down, or ridiculed, arrogantly told they have “had their turn”, and that if they take offence to that, then they are “part of the problem”.

In fact, I spoke to a man just two days ago who turned against a large feminist ‘sexual education’ charity, who were going into schools to ‘educate’ innocent boys that they were rapists in waiting.

This man blew the whistle and had the charity closed down, literally under domestic terrorism charges.

I am not shocked.

Boys and men are betrayed by both sides of the political divide.

Many of the right tell them to be strong and powerful leaders, providers, heroes, career animals, millionaires, and supercar owners.

Whilst many on the left tell men they are oppressive, angry, privileged, fragile, toxic, patriarchal tyrants.

And so our boys and men fall through the cracks. Becoming the collateral damage to the explosions and shrieks, rage and resentment of the propagandists in their endless gender war high above them.

Those who did nothing wrong, besides being born to the male sex.

So why do so many blame men and boys for their own undoing?Why is it always their fault?

Why do we afford so much agency to them, yet so little to women and girls?

In a nutshell, women have problems, and men are problems.

Is there a deep hypocrisy in the gender debate?

~

Images by Mathias Reding, Tengyart, Kiwi Hug and Gradienta from Unsplash.

Cheesy_toe · 2023-04-07T17:06:12+00:00

I’ve been saying this for a while as well. Internalised misandry should be the equivalent term to use. However, it seems that toxic masculinity conveniently allows them to not acknowledge the existence of misandry. If you believe in the patriarchy theory then misandry cannot exist since men hold power.

Things often change when it begins affecting women. You can see it in your example with Rose McGowan. MeToo was all fine and dandy until it begins affecting themselves and now suddenly we shouldn’t make rash judgements until more information is available.

It happens with prison sentences too. When women began receiving prison sentences, suddenly they realise that maybe current punishments are too harsh. Now you have programs to rehabilitate female offenders instead of jailing them.

Hyperagency goes so far that courts often accept that teenage boys consent to having sex with adult women and reduce their sentences or suspend it all together. With teenage girls, nobody cares if they consented or not, which is how it should be for boys as well.

hotpotato138 · 2023-04-07T13:25:00+00:00

Yeah, I agree. This double standard needs to go away.

2023-04-07T21:33:56+00:00

This loops right back into the regressive gender roles feminists claim to oppose. These ideas benefit them, and beneath all their lies, they know it.

YourPiercedNeighbour · 2023-04-08T16:41:18+00:00

I always found it funny that anything positive has to be completely gender neutral, but negative male assigned language remains.

ottprim · 2023-04-07T14:22:51+00:00

You need to reframe your thinking to understand the true goal. It's all about power. It's gotten through victimhood on the part of those who want power. It's gotten through blaming the group they want to take the power from for all of their own short comings and victimhood. It hurls labels at those it wants to take the power from calling them misogynist, toxic masculinity, racism, or what have you. Those they want to take power from are supposed to be shamed into believing they are bad, evil, and need to make amends for the victimhood and short comings of those wanting power. Pretty classic bully behavior.

OrangleyOrange · 2023-04-08T10:56:40+00:00

I’ve seen “internalized misogyny” used to absolve women who’ve done shitty things to other women out of just obvious jealousy or hate.

It’s yet another imaginary boogeyman they can blame because they infantilise each other so that they don’t have to feel bad or change the fact that they’ve done something shitty or are a shitty person

RockmanXX · 2023-04-08T12:49:08+00:00

He-man is a positive male role model for kids. He isn't loud, he's very gentle and emotionally sensitive to those around him. A better example of a loud, hyper-aggressive Toxic Male Characters would be all the WWE wrestlers.

Normal_Study · 2023-04-24T11:32:30+00:00

As a trans man, I remember when I started dressing masculinely I was told by feminists that I have "internalized misogyny". And when I started passing and didn't want anything to do with dresses and makeup and wanted to grill, lift weights, and box I was told I have "toxic masculinity".

Confrontational_bear · 2023-04-07T15:01:15+00:00

Gentlemen, it feels like we’re dealing with toddlers. They ramble about things and we’re supposed to do something about it even if it’s not logical or clearly explained. ( I have more than enough examples for this) We have to accept the lack of logic behind the many grievances (ex: allmen) because they clearly don’t “owe us” even the slightest logical effort to clarify their talking points. That inability or bad faith when it comes to clarifying things definitely will frustrate any problem-solving individual. To me, when they feel plainly nebulous about their aims it’s because the ultimate aim is to protect that hypo agency.

Your_Nipples · 2023-04-07T14:40:25+00:00

Good post.

big_meats93 · 2023-04-08T09:58:38+00:00

Hey, this is such a great post. I really think it ought to be posted in additional subreddits and get more visibility. Is there some kind of reason it's not?

WingOutrageous9987 · 2023-04-07T19:16:43+00:00

Good stuff!

Clousder · 2024-05-29T08:26:27+00:00

Omg this is so well put together I will definitely start referring to both of them as internalized instead

Confrontational_bear · 2023-04-07T14:46:28+00:00

The way I view women because of these feminists is as if we’re dealing with toddlers. They ramble about things and we’re supposed to do something about it even if it’s not logical or clearly explained. ( I have more than enough examples for this) We have to accept the lack of logic behind their grievances because they clearly don’t “owe us” even the slightest logical effort to clarify their talking points. Something that I despise about the feminist movement and women in general is their inability to clarify things. To me, they feel nebulous about their aims because the ultimate aim is to protect that hypoagency.

Attilatheshunned · 2023-04-07T19:04:05+00:00

Feels like blame shifting.

ChimpPimp20 · 2023-04-07T19:38:59+00:00

I think when it comes to agency, both men and women get it. It just depends on the scenario.

When a pregnant teen is confronted, she is the one that is blamed.

When a man is hit by a woman, he is the one blamed. This isn’t to say that a woman hit by a man is NEVER blamed but you’d be dumb to put money on the girl victim getting blamed over the guy victim.

It all depends.

Beljuril-home · 2025-04-18T05:01:41+00:00

so.

bang.

on.

true.

69luv42 · 2025-12-22T17:24:13+00:00

woah this was an eye opener, I never thought about this

Xyex · 2026-07-27T21:32:26+00:00

Old post, I know, but! I would argue the difference is that the concepts of toxic masculinity were created, and are propogated and enforced by, primarily men. There are definitely women out there that have bought into it, and help perpetuate it.

You will see a lotore men touting it as a good thing, and what one needs to be like to be a true man. Meanwhile, you'll see a lot more women bucking against their stereotyping than supporting it.

X_Act · 2023-04-08T17:52:22+00:00

I would never call that "internalized misogyny", so you're already starting off on a bad premise. It's socialized, not "internalized". Socialization is happening on a macro level outside of individual people "internalizing" things.

There's lots to be said about the Rose McGowan examples. Her girlfriend was actually highly coordinated in cancelling Asia. She was anything but "gentle" towards her and left her out to dry, right after doing a whole documentary talking about how Weinstein paid literal Israeli spies to take down all the main women who came out with the rape allegations. Rose McGowan herself started changing her while narrative talking about misogyny and objectification of women in Hollywood to anyone vs powerful people. I wouldn't be surprised if she's getting paid now as well. Her reaction to the Marilyn Manson stuff was very, very lacking.

Beyond that specific example, it's reasonable to point to the fact that there are collective and social issues that men are a part of when it comes to their use and treatment of women. It's not outside of any men's comprehension that there are larger social norms that effect how thousands and thousands of years have involved men seeing women as property, as objects, as birthing bodies and as a thing to be conquered and a notch on a belt. You may not be a man that sees any women at all this way, but you know about certain patterns of behavior that exist among the ways men treat women.

q-cumb3r · 2023-04-09T02:10:34+00:00

you may notice that the expectations placed on men and women reflect this idea of agency as well.

but its also called toxic masculinity to distinguish it from "good" masculinity. a lot of qualities thay are deemed masculine are desired qualities and come with a bit of status and power. we don't bother distinguishing between "good" and "bad" misogyny because a lot of expected qualities of women are qualities that keep them powerless and subordinate. I'm not gonna say there isn't misandry, i just don't think this is it. expecting men to be in positions of power over others to enable them to hurt others isn't discrimination, the discrimination happens when men deviate.

GoelandAnonyme · 2023-04-07T17:00:50+00:00

This post is the closest to actually understanding what toxic masculinity is that I've seen in a while.

HomealoneR2D2 · 2023-04-16T16:31:38+00:00

Why do you leftwing retards all blameen all the time 😆 I just wanna get by and not have drama in my life, Am i wrong for being born with a penis and having urges for sex or to raise a family or be a man? Also im whitr so now you can yell at me for that too, You racist.

Title	"Toxic Masculinity" vs "Internalised Misogyny"
Author	TheTinMenBlog
Upvotes	602
Comments	108
Date	April 7, 2023 1:16 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/12el0xb/toxic_masculinity_vs_internalised_misogyny/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/toxic-masculinity-vs-internalised-misogyny.1213806 https://theredarchive.com/post/1213806

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