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Student Wrongfully Expelled for Rape Triumphs in Court: Due Process Beats 'Yes Means Yes'

DougDante

October 10, 2015

924 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Student Wrongfully Expelled for Rape Triumphs in Court: Due Process Beats 'Yes Means Yes'
Author	DougDante
Upvotes	924
Comments	117
Date	October 10, 2015 2:14 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3o6b3y/student_wrongfully_expelled_for_rape_triumphs_in/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/student-wrongfully-expelled-for-rape-triumphs-in.969686 https://theredarchive.com/post/969686

Comments

[–]ThePedanticCynic 53 points54 points55 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HardKase 188 points189 points190 points 10 years ago (54 children) | Copy Link

[+]Arcosim 10 years ago* [recovered] (39 children) | Copy Link

His education and multiple millions in reparations. His name and face will now appear associated to a "rape" case every time an employer googles his name.

[–][deleted] 69 points70 points71 points 10 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[+]TwelfthCycle -21 points-20 points-19 points 10 years ago* (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darkling5499 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]TwelfthCycle -8 points-7 points-6 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darkling5499 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

yes, because the next logical leap is instead of "slandering every defendent" we hold secret trials.

not that the names of the defendants, like the accusers, are legally kept out of the press. currently, only the accuser's name is unavailable to the press. so rather than slander the accuser (as was done in the past [among other things], hence the laws), the press has taken to absolutely destroying anyone simply ACCUSED of a sexual crime. i'm still waiting for the "apology issue" from rolling stone after they took the lies of a sociopath as fact and slandered an entire university and fraternity.

the other option would be to release the name of not only the defendant, but the accuser as well.

but yes, please assume that i want secret trials. why not secret police, and a secret government as well?

[+]TwelfthCycle -9 points-8 points-7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Darkling5499 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]-Fender- 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The problem is not the process of judicial trials itself. It's that the name and face of the accused is plastered all over the news long before any form of guilt has been proven, and then comes all the public shaming and accusations in the court of the public opinion. Even if it is proven beyond the slightest shade of a doubt that he is innocent, there will always be people that will forever remain convinced that he was in fact guilty. This can also lead to problems when he'll look for employment later, as /u/Darkling5499 has stated. Between two equally qualified people, but one of which has been accused of rape in the past, who would they give preferential treatment to? Especially when a majority of people working in human resources are women.

The problem is not the trial. It's the publicity. If he was given the right to remain anonymous until a conviction had been given and his guilt proven, then there would be no issues.

[–]TwelfthCycle -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Stephen1985 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]-Fender- 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

In my opinion, the best case scenario would be to make it illegal, or at the very least, strongly discouraged to propagate information about people accused of sexual crimes, with the exception of when manhunts are launched. To keep their anonymity, until the moment when they are convicted. And if they are proven innocent, to have their identities kept secret. This would be the best case scenario.

Even better would be to also have more impartial juries, in cases that use them. To have witnesses hidden behind screens, and their speech being modified through a microphone or a different device, to make it impossible to know whether they are male or female, young or old, or how they look.

What I would like is to make justice fair and impartial for all, and allow innocent people to not have to worry about crimes they never committed.

[–]TwelfthCycle -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]-Fender- 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't see how preventing the spread of the name of a potentially innocent person's identity could be a negative thing. Definitely much better than the current system of having innocent people being discriminated against and vilified based on nothing more than someone's lies.

This is something that should be true for every crime, not just ones that are sexually-related. The reason I specified them is because they are perceived even worse by the public than most other crimes, and therefore anonymity would be particularly essential for these cases. How many more thousands of innocents' lives do we need to ruin and drag through the mud before we are satisfied?

And even if this change would sometimes help criminals avoid repercussions for their actions, I would still rather have 10 criminals go free than a single innocent punished.

[–]dungone 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TwelfthCycle -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why am I evicted from my home? I live alone.

As to everything else, ok, let's put the question to you. What would you change?

No incarceration until proof of guilt established in court? Well shit, the defense would just request more time until the world ends. Plus the individual could be out there doing more crap. I'd really not have the guy caught with the gun in his hand outside the 7-11 after robbing the place walking around. Especially when he knows who his accusers are (you know, constitutional amendments and all that)

Would you like to remove the "jury of my peers" part? Sure, all up to one judge. Or if you prefer, we'll use the French system of 3. But that's ok I'm sure 3 people who spend their lives being lied to in court are really going to be inclined to believe me.

And we are instructing the juries that unless they have been convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the person is guilty, they walk.

Not sure that 12 randomly selected people are inclined to hate me. I think you're just stretching here. But then most of this is a stretch.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]TwelfthCycle -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]yougonnagetit -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]GTCtry_another -10 points-9 points-8 points 10 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]GTCtry_another 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I definitely think paying damages is fair; I just don't see what relation their amount should have to costs that he'd basically have been paying anyway. (Unless he chooses a more expensive institute—but then what if he chooses a less expensive one?) More useful for the university that expelled him to have to somehow endorse his transfer to another one of his choosing. The best way I can think of for the university to acknowledge they were on the wrong side of justice, and try to mitigate the harm of the stigma placed on him, and show everyone else that denying due process is unacceptable "even" if it's "just" a matter of academic expulsion, would be for the university president to, say, have to write a letter to another uni's acceptance committee to the effect of, "Here's this guy who defended justice when he sued us; we don't deserve him; you would be lucky to have him. We have no more reason to suspect he'd cause you any trouble than to suspect anyone else would."

However, it might be hard to make that look sincere, and anyway I don't know if ordering someone to espouse a position like that (even if he might agree with it, if he's reasonable) is considered constitutional. But it seems like that would be the proper thing for the university to do anyway.

[–]ThePedanticCynic 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]stockholm_sadness 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]blueoak9 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]GTCtry_another 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Who cares about penalties?" You, evidently! Penalties are about the future; they don't exist in some sort of temporal bubble where they can't possibly make things better in a substantive way for future students. Penalties for an offense become precedent which tell universities what is and isn't an acceptable way to handle these cases and what consequences they can expect to face if they mishandle them. That's like 99% of the entire point of them, with immediate reparations to the injured party being the rest.

The university didn't make his education more expensive by mishandling his case so why would their penalty be based on his expenses in continuing his education? It did make his education more difficult to continue, but to act like there's anything intuitively "just" in basing the university's penalties on the cost of wherever he happens to go to school next is completely arbitrary. Do employers who wrongfully terminate someone pay his wages at his next job? No, though even that would be logical compared to what you're all insisting.

[–]HardKase 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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