Alpha Males Do Not Exist

SmurfESmurferson · 2017-08-02T21:28:28+00:00

I think TRP uses "Alpha" as a descriptor, not in a strictly scientific sense.

The guy who is a natural leader, charismatic, attracts women without trying - he's the "Alpha." He's also Chad, and he's who TRP aspire to be (or at least emulate).

EDIT: "Alpha" is also situational. If you take a well respected gangbanger out of the hood, and drop him in - say - a white collar law firm, he's not going to be the "Alpha." Similarly, if you take a high rolling entrepreneur and drop him in the military, he's not going to be considered "Alpha."

IIHotelYorba · 2017-08-02T22:30:01+00:00

I could be a dick and say,

ok fine: silverback gorilla

but yes, as other posters are saying, "alpha male" is meant to be an aid to help men understand a bunch of complex ideas all at once. It's like saying "he looks like santa claus" instead of saying

"and he had a beard, but a big beard, and it was grey, and he wore red, and blah blah blah"

So imagine that you were just trying to convey to people that someone looked like Santa Claus, and people kept saying to you,

HA HA YOU KNOW SANTA ISN'T REAL DONT YOU? DUMB FUCK LOL THIS IS WHY YOU GET NOTHING FOR CHRISTMAS

Hairbrainer · 2017-08-02T21:29:02+00:00

There are more dominant men and less dominant men, in different scenarios. But to classify one man as always alpha and one as always beta is childish and illogical.

Frankly, most everyone I've met who uses those terms unironically is usually really insecure and, by their own definition, "not alpha."

In any sense, every man is on a spectrum of leadership, confidence, and dominance, and there is not one trait or action that can classify a man as purely alpha.

prodigy2throw · 2017-08-03T00:08:16+00:00

This video does in fact topple the myth that the swolebro, vin diesel type is the only type of alpha. But nobody says otherwise.

alreadyredschool · 2017-08-03T00:19:35+00:00

Humans obviously are social animals with a social hierarchy. There are leaders, followers, elders, we even have shamans - spiritual leaders...

Sexual selection is a huge part of our evolutionary pressure. There are more attractive and less attractive people, there are more dominant and more submissive people. There are more sexual successful and less sexual successful people.

And these Adam ruins everything stuff is not just extremely shallow (really he goes for the most obvious and well known misconceptions) but also sometimes wrong, leaves out huge chunks of information.

Edit: https://youtu.be/YTyQgwVvYyc?t=4m4s

For example this. How many studies do you know that found that low agreeableness was good for short them flings? Ha that was a trick question the answer is all of them!

Also let's not ignore how he misinterprets her argument. She says she is into <the type of guy you use alpha as a shorthand for> and he comes up with - he isn't the leader in every single social situation. Well fuck maybe she was talking about a guy that is like that right now. And maybe we are talking about the hook up scene here and not dungeon and dragons.

Love8Death · 2017-08-02T21:48:03+00:00

Lol okay then.

There's multiple definitions of alpha.

There's the TRP alpha, which is a sexually attractive man, and where alpha behavior is sexually attractive behavior.

There's alpha mentality, pretty much champion mentality that brings any man success in life, where an alpha is a man that lives his life on his terms and is responsible for his life. Which is basically what Black Dragon is selling a guide to for here. Not that all this information isn't free lol.

Then there's alpha blood, where an alpha man is one with among the top genetics, has the markers like broad shoulders, strong jaw, height, big dick.

There's also alpha status, which is the man with the highest status in a given community, society, or social group.

Bottom0ftheBarrel · 2017-08-02T22:06:16+00:00

The reason Mech was so quick to observe alphas among wolves was because it felt logical to him for them to be there. Probably because he recognized similar patterns among humans. That is also why the term caught on like it did. Who gives a fuck whether it's actually true when it comes to wolves? That doesn't have to mean it's not true for people.

Also, at the end, Adam named a few beta traits as being good for relationships but quantity is more of an indicator of alphaness than quality. I still believe alpha traits are beneficial for having lots of partners and being sexually attractive.

ChelseaDagger14 · 2017-08-02T22:18:01+00:00

I wrote something similar on alphas a few days ago.

"There are always situations where "alphas" will fade into the background. Take a 'roided up bodybuilder type; you'd expect them to do well in a cheap club - at least be much more confident than a D and D player. But if you put the bodybuilder in a D and D all night session, while the folks there are shouting about dexterity and wisdom, he's likely to be in the background."

I do also feel that alpha is often used by RP'ers to talk about how much better tan "betas" they are, so there is often little consistency with how it's used on there.

Truedemocracy2 · 2017-08-03T03:25:20+00:00

This is basically pure male rationalization of being a 'beta' male.

Also, College Humor lmao is pure liberal hogwash.

Supernumiphone · 2017-08-02T22:49:21+00:00

Well if the term "alpha" isn't valid as previously used, then it's up for grabs, so it might as well be used to describe the arbitrary collection of traits that RPers call "alpha." In other words, whether or not it has a corollary elsewhere in the animal kingdom there's no reason for RPers not to keep using it as they have been. I suppose one could argue that the lack of "alphaness" in the animal kingdom to some degree undermines some of the foundation of this theory but I'm sure they'll argue that if it is an effective predictor of behavior it doesn't need that underpinning.

rathyAro · 2017-08-03T01:13:19+00:00

Interesting. The video mentions that different personality types tend to dominate in different situations, but I haven't really found that ti be true. Even if you play d&d or other nerdy games there is still aggressive people, assholes, confident people, and gregarious people. It looks different in different circles, but the traits are basically the same, they tend to have the same results. Yes you can make people uncomfortable by putting them in unfamiliar situations and they will appear less "alpha" but that doesn't really say much.

ThatGreekLady · 2017-08-03T02:29:45+00:00

Hunters-gatherers were often quite egalitarian. The RP often makes it seem like "strict" hierarchies are necessary and inevitable to humans, something I don't agree with.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways

PostModernismKills · 2017-08-02T23:01:19+00:00

Alpha male is just a reductionist concept intended to reduce all object relations to a hierarchy. Since 'TRP' consists of men who feel shame at their own perceived inability to ascend some metaphysical hierarchy, it's very convenient.

pinkgoldrose · 2017-08-02T23:39:36+00:00

Alpha is just pill language for a man with the combination of top genetics and leadership qualities who manages to attract women. Good genes can be faked (acting like you're smart even though you're not, or alternatively hanging around people who are dumber than you, going to the gym a lot to make it look like you have muscles, hiding your illness, etc.), the rest can possibly be learned though you can't really change your personality.

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Temperfuelmma · 2017-08-03T04:11:39+00:00

Funny how it's always the betas that says alphas aren't real. It's almost like they're in denial.

Merger-Arbitrage · 2017-08-03T04:19:12+00:00

For the purposes of discussion on the Manosphere-related forums they may as well not exist.

In PUA/TRP it is basically "good / I approve" vs. (beta = "bad / I don't approve"). Often used completely arbitrarily.

In science, alpha/beta was supposed to describe animal hierarchies. This research has been substantially discredited because the initial piece of research studied wolves in captivity. If there

In RP (read: not TRP), well, who knows? With more than one charlatan spewing lengthy drivel (hello Rollo) I can't keep up with it, even though I've dedicated some of the time I spend on the crapper to read "original" RP writing. To substantiate this last point, here's one of the oldest "alpha male" links that Rollo has: https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/

To summarize a wall of text, here's what he basically said about Alpha males:

Having "internalized alpha bravado"

A "mindset" that earned you your achievements... you develop it or it came naturally

Of course, what that mindset is.. is never made explicit, which leaves most of the Manospheroids to keep wondering and each time the definition will change.. and probably mean nothing important.

And then a little later he wrote some (way too much) more:

https://therationalmale.com/2012/02/21/defining-alpha/

"Personally I believe Alpha-ness can, and does, have a concrete, objective definition."

"Thus I would propose that while certainly contextual, objective Alpha-ness is NOT exclusive to social status or personal integrity, but rather an attitude of expressly manifested traits. These can be innate or learned, but the definition is not dependent on moral grounds (or a lack of). A scoundrel and a champion can be equally Alpha or Beta in their own psyche’s."

While ultimately leads him to give off a bunch of vague claptrap about "manifested traits." Even when describing alpha males "contextually" - you are left with a swath of possible interpretations. Ultimately, if the Manosphere or RP/TRP is supposed to guide men, this is fairly useless material to ponder over as they're likely going to come to all the wrong conclusion anyway - which led them to RP (or the Manosphere) in the first place.

So yes, alpha males may as well not exist, except for the purpose of letting some schlubs beat their chest while proclaiming X as alpha and Y as beta.

Sniveling_Cur · 2017-08-03T06:44:00+00:00

I find it amusing how the only link that actually deals with close human relatives - the chimpanzees - explicitly states that alpha males do exist.

That's apparently a proof how alpha males don't exist. Because uh, wolves. And The Guardian.

Entropy-7 · 2017-08-03T14:34:45+00:00

TRP uses the term "alpha (male)" in a different sense than zoologists. With a few exceptions among cults, men are not in direct competition with other men for exclusive access to all the females in a given tribe, troop, pride, pack, herd or what have you.

I've seen some of Adam's stuff and it is mostly well-researched, but I can't link to youtube because I am behind the Great FireWall of China.

As far as TRP is concerned, there are certainly guys who are "lovers of women" and "leaders of men", with the latter being optional for alpha status.

It's sort of a side question as to whether is "counts" if the seduction and leadership skill are learned, but still, there are certainly men with natural charisma, leadership, and sexual attractiveness.

notworthmuch20xx · 2017-08-02T22:28:02+00:00

Gotta love how they managed to sneak Trump in that last link

pinkgoldrose · 2017-08-02T23:39:34+00:00

Alpha is just pill language for a man with the combination of top genetics and leadership qualities who manages to attract women. Good genes can be faked (acting like you're smart even though you're not, going to the gym a lot to make it look like you have muscles), the rest can possibly be learned though you can't really change your personality.

TheBookOfSeil · 2017-08-03T04:08:46+00:00

Nothing really to add. I just wanted to say thanks for pointing this out. "Alpha" is really just an egotistical word that someone thought to replace "being a man" with, as if being an "Alpha male" makes a man a "manlier man" than a "regular man."

BPremium · 2017-08-03T11:26:54+00:00

That same episode also said the Myer Briggs test is horseshit.

ThorLives · 2017-08-04T06:50:11+00:00

Just pointing out one ridiculous flaw in the way he talks about the science, because I've studied a bit of evolution. He says that humans are most closely related to Bonobos (not Chimpanzees). Ugh. Here's the thing: chimpanzees and bonobos split into different species around a million years ago. The chimpanzee-bonobo ancestor split from the human lineage around 5 million years ago. Saying that humans are more closely related to bonobos than chimpanzees is demonstrably false. From the standpoint of time, humans are equally related to both chimpanzees and bonobos. From the standpoint of DNA, humans are equally related to both chimpanzees and bonobos:

"Chimpanzees now have to share the distinction of being our closest living relative in the animal kingdom. An international team of researchers has sequenced the genome of the bonobo for the first time, confirming that it shares the same percentage of its DNA with us as chimps do... The researchers also found that bonobos share about 98.7% of their DNA with humans—about the same amount that chimps share with us... When the Max Planck scientists compared the bonobo genome directly with that of chimps and humans, however, they found that a small bit of our DNA, about 1.6%, is shared with only the bonobo, but not chimpanzees. And we share about the same amount of our DNA with only chimps, but not bonobos." http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives

And, while the human lineage split from the chimpanzee-bonobo lineage around 5 million years ago, gorillas split from the same lineage around 6-7 million years ago, so gorillas are not that far from us genetically, either: "While the genetic difference between individual humans today is minuscule – about 0.1%, on average – study of the same aspects of the chimpanzee genome indicates a difference of about 1.2%. The bonobo (Pan paniscus), which is the close cousin of chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes), differs from humans to the same degree. The DNA difference with gorillas, another of the African apes, is about 1.6%." http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics

Here's a handy graph which helps you visualize it: http://biologos.org/uploads/blog-attachments/evolution-basics-from-primate-to-human-part-1_2.png

Now, consider the very large cultural differences there are between the species: male gorillas have harems, chimpanzee males basically form alliances (or gangs) to take the top spot in the mating hierarchy (though some nice males do occasionally mate with females, outside the view of the ruling males), and bonobos have a much more egalitarian mating system. Our three closest relatives have vastly different mating strategies/systems.

Here's the other thing: every single time I've heard someone make the argument that humans are more closely related to bonobos than to chimpanzees, not only are they wrong, but they've always had some agenda to push - whether it's promoting the idea of a matriarchy (as in this video) or in the idea of free-love (as Sex at Dawn does).

As far as the rest of his argument - it basically boils down to "Alpha wolves don't actually exist - therefore, neither do alpha males". That's a poor argument since they aren't necessarily connected (i.e. it's possible for human alpha males to exist even though wolf alpha males don't). So, it's not really relevant.

The relevant part of the argument is whether there's a set of traits which we have chosen to call "alpha" and whether women are attracted to those traits.

un_passant · 2017-08-04T08:30:46+00:00

I'm a HUGE fan of "Adam ruins everything", but I found this particular extract to be a bit simplistic. And even if everything he says is true, it is a bit partial to his desired conclusion.

Much better to listen to Robert Sapolsky on this(watching the whole lesson and even the whole class is highly recommended !).

There are pair-bonding species (no alpha male) and tournament species (alpha males). Pair-bonding species and tournament species differ in a variety of biological traits (sexual dysmorphism, twins, lower life expectancy for males,…) as well as in social organization. Even in tournament species with alpha males, to alpha male in "smart" species like chimps is often not a brutish tyrant, least he meets an untimely demise at the hands of more cooperative conspirators.

Humans happen to have biological traits that would put us between the typical pair-bonding specie and the typical tournament specie. Furthermore, humans are atypical in the importance of learned behavior.

What to make of those scientific facts is up for debate…☺

thenoorys · 2017-08-04T19:57:02+00:00

Evolution is a lie so none of that matters really.

But yes they do exist, when I go places with groups of dudes they tend to follow me because I've always been decisive, other guys that are like me hate me and I usually hate them back.

It's natural leadership that arises from being executive which itself arises from lack of fear

artietx · 2017-08-03T18:56:56+00:00

I thought it was pretty clear that it's defined through sexual success there. If he gets all the sex he wants - he's an alpha, if not - then not/beta.

prodigy2throw · 2017-08-02T23:51:55+00:00

Lol all men are equal right?

Title	Alpha Males Do Not Exist
Author	decoy88
Upvotes	16
Comments	240
Date	August 2, 2017 9:25 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6r7gv6/alpha_males_do_not_exist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/alpha-males-do-not-exist.266636 https://theredarchive.com/post/266636

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