How many genders are there? | PurplePillDebate

fizolof · 2014-11-18T15:07:17+00:00

Since gender is a social construct, we can ourselves define how many genders there are. I think there are two, but some people think there are more. So my...

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Gender as a proxy for sex is made up hogwash. There are two sexes with each having a spectrum of traits with the bulk of each sex clustering around a norm. Everyone else is an outlier on that spectrum of its given sex. There is some overlap of the spectrums yielding effeminate men and masculinized women. They are still men and women if they have the chromosomes and proper organs. If they DONT have the chromosomes and proper organs they are men and women with birth defects, not other "genders". We don't say a baby born without legs is something other than a human baby by virtue of a birth defect, a baby born with XY chromosomes is still male even if it has some indeterminate sexual characteristics. When a schizotypal claims to be Napoleon, no one responds by getting him a Napoleon costume and sending him into exile on Elba, he is treated as delusional.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think gender maps to the aesthethical categories of sublime and beautiful and in and of itself does not have much to do with sex.

Like, flowers are gender-feminine (soothing, comforting of all the senses, non-threatening), guns are gender-masculine (evoke a fear of death).

This does not really have a lot to do with sex as such, although it is true that testosterone is a fighter's hormone, and as such both biology and the socially dominant position tends to push biological males towards the gender-masculine aesthetic, where fearsome things evoke a sense of the sublime and majestic, and the lack of it tends to push biological females towards the non-threating, soothing, beautiful. But it is not a hard and fast rule.

I think the relationship between gender and Burkean aesthethics is easy to demonstrate for the masculine gender - sublime aesthethics connection: jus why else would be the lion or the wolf seen as a traditionally masculine animal if not for the fact that they are fearsome?

The beautiful aesthethic - feminine gender connection is a bit trickier. Yes, women are traditionally supposed to like all kinds of pretty things like flowers and ribbons. But Burke linking aesthethic beauty to non-threatening things is a bit more difficult. The best I can do is to demonstrate it is the tactile sense: doesn't the touch of feminine silk feel less threatening to the fingers than denim or studded leather? Thus, if we accept that biology and social oppression pushes women towards a low-T life which means the non-aggressive, non-threatening life, maybe aesthethic beauty, like flowers and decorative pillows and all kinds of gender-feminine things express precisely that.

I think this is a very useful theory and I am kind of proud that I was the first one who linked Burkean aesthethics theory to gender theory.

[–]autowikibot0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Section 1. Summary of article A Philosophical Enquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime and Beautiful:

In short, the Beautiful, according to Burke, is what is well-formed and aesthetically pleasing, whereas the Sublime is what has the power to compel and destroy us. The preference for the Sublime over the Beautiful was to mark the transition from the Neoclassical to the Romantic era.

The origins of our ideas of the beautiful and the sublime, for Burke, can be understood by means of their causal structures. According to Aristotelian physics and metaphysics, causation can be divided into formal, material, efficient and final causes. The formal cause of beauty is the passion of love; the material cause concerns aspects of certain objects such as smallness, smoothness, delicacy, etc.; the efficient cause is the calming of our nerves; the final cause is God's providence. What is most peculiar and original to Burke's view of beauty is that it cannot be understood by the traditional bases of beauty: proportion, fitness, or perfection. The sublime also has a causal structure that is unlike that of beauty. Its formal cause is thus the passion of fear (especially the fear of death); the material cause is equally aspects of certain objects such as vastness, infinity, magnificence, etc.; its efficient cause is the tension of our nerves; the final cause is God having created and battled Satan, as expressed in Milton's great epic Paradise Lost.

^Interesting: ^Edmund ^Burke ^| ^Sublime ^(philosophy) ^| ^A ^Vindication ^of ^the ^Rights ^of ^Men ^| ^Index ^of ^philosophy ^articles ^(A–C)

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

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On the whole, I think it is a current manifestation of a schizotypal personality disorder delusion. I do believe there are likely people who's chemistry is altered for whatever reason to such an extent that they really approach "being trapped in the other sex's body", but I think those people are exceedingly rare, much rarer than the current crop of delusional schizotypals would indicate. I don't care what they do, or if they get surgery or how they live their lives, I have no interest in them to harm or help them, oppress them or support them. In 10 years the "transgender" fad will be over and forgotten, mark my words. This is something only getting old can tell you.

edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe there really are born transSEXUALs, but that I reject "transgenders" as a schizotypal delusion. This is not a slur or a criticism, mild schizotypy is very common, I am not saying they are SCHIZOPHRENIC

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How do you define depression? Or eating disorders? As a mental or physical disorder?

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LOL@ assigned sex, like babies ar ejust randmoly assigned a sex for NO reason. If you have a dick and balls and XY chromosomes you're male and if you insist you aren't and have no hormonal or brain differences that indicate otherwise then you're suffering a schizotypal delusion

This really isn't how brain development works.

Genetically, you have a sex. If you're XX then you're a women. XY and your a man. Anything else and you have a chromosome abnormality. You have these genes at conception.

After conception, things can get screwy. As the brain matures during gestation, brain cells start to become more specialized. The epigenome of each cell dictates the function of each cell. At this point, all sorts of things can happen. Homosexuality can develop. Elements of gender identity can develop. Most of these changes are dictated by hormones.

But this is one of the biological reasons it might be smart to differentiate gender and sex. You have your sex at conception, but you do not have your sexual orientation, much less your gender identity. These components of your mind develop on a spectrum. Some fetuses are subject to hormone surges that cause their minds to develop attraction to women. Some fetuses are subject to hormone surges that cause them to develop attraction to men. Some fetuses get hormone surges that cause them to develop attraction to both sexes. Furthermore, during childhood, sexual and gender identity is fine-tuned based on environmental influences.

TL;DR Sex is simple. Gender, sexual attraction, and sexual identity are not simple.

[–]homo_homini_lupus 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with everything you said that's why i said:

If you have a dick and balls and XY chromosomes you're male and if you insist you aren't and have no hormonal or brain differences that indicate otherwise

I already said that "gender" is a bunch of sex specific traits that the bulk of each sex cluster in the middle of respectively, with the rest being outliers and some overlap on the femine tail and men and masculine tail of women. What I object to is claiming that the people who overlap are anything but outliers or in some cases even birth defects. Certainly the enormous amount of instances of me being misgendered on the internet has something to do with their being something off the hump of the curve about me, but that doesn't make me another gender, the wrong gender or intergender or genderqueer or any nonsense. It makes me a woman with some masculinized traits, just ike a man can be "effeminate" without being gay, or a girl can engage in male play from the day shes able to play without being a lesbian or a "transgender". AND I even believe in a small core of true transexuals who are somehow one sex trapped in the body of the other sex due to the way their brain was influenced in utero. What I'm saying is that on TOP of this small cadre of bona fide transsexuals, there is a layer of faddish transgenders who are doing it for other reasons

[–]GridReXXit be like that0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree.

Physiological sex (genitals, reproductive organs, etc...)
Chromosomal Sex (XX or XY or other variations...)
Gender Identity ("I am a man" or "I am a woman" or "I feel like both")
Sexual Orientation (straight, gay, bi, fluid, "no label", gender queer, "i like what i like," etc...)

They're all different.

For many people they align with the "norm" the norm being "cis-gendered."

But even I diverge when we get down to the "sexual orientation" piece. I'm more on the "no label" or "i like what i like" side of things.

And quite frankly I don't think I'm that un-normal.

I personally feel if everyone were truthful, there would be a lot of people who would admit to homoerotic thoughts or behaviors even if the "identify as straight." I.E. Many people are likely in the middle with a predilection for one or the other.

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Yes, I agree there are some very shallow, culturally relative norms around the sexes (pink or blue), but the people who go crazy with gender studies falsely lump innate sex differences in with the most shallow cultural differences and decide that ALL sex differences are socially constructed

It woulndt be a defect from an evolutionary perspective, as you seem to be framing it, since from that perspective there is only "success" in terms of breeding your traits and mutations into the future population or not. If hermaphroditism bred into a population over time reliably and predictably and stably to such an extent that it reached the sort of critical mass male and female have, then i would probably say, OK! theres a third sex now! It is a defect from the perspective of how the humans are overwhelmingly normally constructed absent something going wrong somewhere in the process

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Klinefelter syndrome:

Klinefelter syndrome (/ˈklaɪnfɛltər/) or Klinefelter's syndrome, also known as 47,XXY or XXY, is the set of symptoms resulting from a genetic disorder in which there is at least one extra X chromosome to a standard human male karyotype, for a total of 47 chromosomes rather than the 46 found in genetically typical humans. As the resulting individual possesses at least one Y chromosome, they are typically considered genetically male, although the phenotype can be male, female or intersex. While females have an XX chromosomal makeup, and males an XY, individuals with Klinefelter syndrome have at least two X chromosomes and at least one Y chromosome.

Image ⁱ

^Interesting: ^X ^chromosome ^| ^XYY ^syndrome ^| ^Intersex ^| ^Hypogonadism

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[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

There's no finite number. Here's a society who believe there's 5.

In western society, there is no official list. Since it is believed by some that gender is a spectrum, there is no fixed number.

can I change my gender after some time, or is it fixed once I declare it?

Are you familiar at all with being genderfluid? What you're describing is a non-binary identity.

If I declare myself a woman tomorrow, will I be subjected to sexism and should I be able to use women's facilities?

I believe there was recently an episode of South Park about just such a scenario, in which Cartman "came out" as trans so he could poop in the girl's bathroom. He was being an asshole. It also turned out that Stan's dad was doing the same thing sincerely, and he was not being an asshole. It's about context. The moral is don't be an asshole.

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In western society, there is no official list. Since it is believed by some that gender is a spectrum, there is no fixed number.

But what's the spectrum? Can I make up my own name for my gender identity?

I believe there was recently an episode of South Park about just such a scenario, in which Cartman "came out" as trans so he could poop in the girl's bathroom. He was being an asshole. It also turned out that Stan's dad was doing the same thing sincerely, and he was not being an asshole. It's about context. The moral is don't be an asshole.

After watching that episode, I'm wondering. I understand that if I feel bad when people of different sex, but the same gender identity use same bathrooms as me, that makes me an asshole and I deserve to be excluded from society. But if I don't want people of different gender identity in my bathroom, then that's ok? Because that's the idea behind gender-segregated bathrooms. Why is it okay to segregate people based on one characteristic, but not another? I understand that "separate but equal" suddenly becomes acceptable when it's about separating men and women?

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

But what's the spectrum?

The simple explanation is between male and female, but it gets much more complicated the more you learn about the subject. Did you read the link from my last comment? Edit: For more, see this page on third gender.

Can I make up my own name for my gender identity?

Lots of people do, sure.

In regards to South Park, I was really happy after watching the episode, because I feel it has now brought this ongoing conversation about trans individuals and bathroom use to much larger and more varied audience than before.

that makes me an asshole and I deserve to be excluded from society

I don't think you deserve to be excluded from society, but I think people who feel the way you're describing don't fully understand the situation. 70% of trans individuals experience harassment of some kind while using public restrooms throughout their lives, no matter which one they choose.

From the linked article:

The primary experience trans people reported was verbal harassment, with 68 percent reporting they were told they were in the wrong facility, told to leave the facility, questioned about their gender, ridiculed or made fun of, verbally threatened, or stared at and given strange looks. Some also shared that the police were called and others noted that they were followed after using a facility. For 9 percent of respondents, actual physical assault has also occurred, including being forcibly removed from the restroom, hit or kicked, intimidated or cornered, or slapped; one respondent reported being sexually assaulted.

Moreover, 18 percent of respondents reported they were simply denied access to a restroom. Several of them were students whose education suffered because of this discrimination, in part because of excessive absences. Those who experienced issues in the workplace felt it contributed to poor job performance, and some even changed jobs or simply quit their jobs to avoid the confrontations.

There were health consequences for respondents as well, with 54 percent reporting physical complications like dehydration, urinary tract infections, kidney infections, and other kidney problems simply because of the tactics they used to avoid going to the restroom during the day. Many health facilities also have gender-segregated restrooms, which discourages individuals from seeking treatment for these conditions. As many as 58 percent have avoided going out in public at times because of bathroom concerns.

Sorry for the long quote, but I think it's important for you to know. I don't see how living the life described above compares with you feeling uncomfortable for a few minutes. Either way, they're probably going into the stall and you don't have to watch them go for crying out loud. Maybe some brief eye contact during handwashing, if that. I don't understand what's so hard about giving people the dignity to go about their business in peace.

In my opinion, having unisex or gender neutral bathrooms would eliminate the probablem. It could be a third option, so cisgendered people who want to remain seperate can still feel comfortable whilst trans people or cis people who just don't care and maybe their own line was too long can do their own thing.

I've never seen the point to have seperate bathrooms in the first place, but I realize not everyone feels the same way. Here's a funny story: a few years ago I was on a trip and stopped at a Starbucks. I still had an hour to drive and after I was done with my drink I needed to use the bathroom. The line to the women's restroom was ridiculously long, it was one of those one toilet only bathrooms, and I had places to be. There was no one in line for the men's room and it was unoccupied. I looked around to see if there were any guys potentially on the way to the bathroom. I voiced the idea aloud to just go in the guy's bathroom, so that perhaps someone ahead of me might take the idea and hey, they were ahead of me and I'm a nice person. There had to be 20 women in line and not one of them responded to the idea. A few made disgusted faces, a few laughed. I shrugged, went in, did my business, and was out and done in a minute or two. Got some weird looks. But hey, I was done and no longer suffering like them. I seriously don't understand why sticking to gender norms is worth wasting your time and being uncomfortable.

[–]fizolof[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So you're saying that no one's gender should be questioned when they enters a gendered bathroom?

No, I don't. I think it's rude as shit for a stranger to try and call someone out for using the bathroom. It's just as fucked up as someone telling someone they can't use the handicap stall/parking spot because their disability isn't visible enough for that stranger.

So there's no point in having them separate, since anyone can go anywhere.

Technically they can, yes. It's not illegal, just socially frowned upon, at least in the US. Ideally I think there should be male, female and gender neutral bathrooms. That way everyone can feel comfortable when they're doing their business. But since many businesses can't afford to immediately pull such things off, in the mean time, I don't see why strangers have to stick their noses into other people's business.

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don't think I've ever had a moment where I ever felt or physically experienced anything wobbly around either of those things

I definitely have. I choose to "act straight" and semi-privately identify as bi. I could totally see someone much like myself fully embracing a straight, bisexual or homosexual identity, and like me, they'd be making that choice based on feelings as well as external realities. I fully agree with you that it's pointless (and pointlessly cruel in a lot of cases) to be skeptical of people's self-professed gender and/or sexual identities, but the idea of both as spectrums rather than binaries actually does allow for choice--not in how a person feels, but in how they want to actively flag themselves to others.

Works for me anyway :) obviously some (maybe most?) of us have a more rigid experience of sexuality/gender than others.

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[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I think you lack knowledge of what gender actually is. You don't decide whether you are a male or female gender based on how womanly or manly you act or think. It's a feeling you have to identify yourself, just like sexuality.

If I'm a man who likes girly drinks instead of beer, that's a little more womanly than a regular man. Maybe not as far down the line as wearing a dress, but guys who identify themselves as having feminine drinking qualities are somewhere between all-man and all-woman.

Liking girly drinks has nothing to do with self-identifying as a man or woman.

What about men who are straight but like anal sex?

This has nothing to do with identifying as a man or woman.

Or women who wearjeans and flannel because it's comfortable? Or girls who admit to being tomboys? Or guys who love cooking and cleaning but can't change a tire? If we identify ourselves by masculine and feminine qualities instead of sex, my cookie preference counts, too.

None of these have anything to do with identifying as a man or woman. You're talking about gender roles/behaviours, not gender itself.

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So can people in wheelchairs and people with cancer. They even employ the mentally handicapped at McDonalds. You can have defects and still be human. You can even still be productive.

...I think you know very well what I meant. People in wheelchairs are limited in what they can do physcially compared to people without a disability. People with cancer need treatment or they die. Transgenders can function exactly the same as cisgenders (although transgenders are more happy when they transition).

But we can't use that word defective any more because it offends people. Now we're all just gender non-normative, which is totally cool and acceptable now. And normal guys don't get to call themselves guys any more. We have to specify that we're cis-male, bilogically, by identity, and by expression. Because people seeing a dude living a dude's life wouldn't want to offend him by assuming he's a dude.

Oh, cut the crap. I always thought that you were one of the more reasonable RPers, but the way you debate here is just ridiculous.

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I'd say that the vast majority of people are either men or women. Whether they're trans or cis, it doesn't matter. I'd venture that more thn 99% of people fall into some binary gender. Being a woman who is sorta tomboyish doesn't make you non binary (a lot of people seem to believe this on Tumblr). Being a woman doesn't mean wearing dresses and being frilly and cutesy. If you feel like a woman, you're a woman. I don't think gender roles are total BS, but not fitting into a gender role 100% doesn't make you a third or fifteenth gender, kwim?

That said, I do think non binary people exist, but they're a very small minority. They should be repsected and referred to the way they want (unless they're 15 year olds deliberately asking to be referred to as "sherlockself" or something) but yeah. So yes, there are infinite genders I guess, but 99% of peopele are one or the other.

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Can you? What, do you want me to outline all the ways in which Japan is different from other societies, because that would take a while.

Cost of living in Japan is extremely high, it's one of the worst countries in the world for working mothers making combining career and family virtually impossible; there's strong pressure on mothers to stay home and stigma against working mothers despite one-income households being economically unfeasible. "Marriage is a woman's grave" an old Japanese saying goes in reference to the trope that wives are ignored for mistresses. These factors probably have something to do with why 90% of young women don't want to marry. It's also a very sexually permissive culture with no religious morals that encourage marriage/family. 20 years of economic stagnation, natural disasters, sub-replacement fertility, very low levels of cohabitation and out-of-wedlock births (less than 2%) and so on. Even married couples barely have sex, and 40% of the female population will be childless in the coming decades. Other than the low birth rates, none of these other factors can be extrapolated on the U.S. or the wider West -- and even then nowhere has quite reached Japan's catastrophic levels of population decline.

Again, China is probably the place on earth most similar to Japan culturally -- and even there the "SMP" and relations between the sexes are very different from Japan. It's very rich to claim Japan is the canary in the mine for the rest of the world when it's a a very specific situation that arised out of a culmination of structural and cultural factors unique to Japan.

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There's really no difference. That's the riddle. Masculinity is dominant leadership. Femininity is submissive compliance.

Can't you see how this is purely a social construct though? The difference between the physical (sex) and the mental (gender) was outlined above - and these frames of reference you discuss (masculine and feminine) belong squarely in the mental. Therefore, what constitutes masculine or feminine can be defined arbitrarily; and in reality these traits are fluid across the genders. Yes, in current Western mainstream society, we define masculinity as being dominant and femininity as being submissive - but these are merely adopted behaviors, reinforced by social environment and upbringing. There's nothing to say that these qualities are innate to gender; e.g. male sexual organs aren't required for dominance, and vice versa. Hence, the idea that character traits go hand in hand with sexual apparatus is a social construct.

Now that women are obsolete, men can pass on their genetics without the need of an actual mother. This technically means men are now the most valuable sex.

Uh-huh. Sure. And this is why TRP exists, because men no longer want women.

[–]homo_homini_lupus 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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Judith Butler:

Judith Butler (born February 24, 1956) is an American continental philosopher and gender theorist whose work has influenced political philosophy, ethics and the fields of feminist, queer and literary theory. Since 1993, she has taught at the University of California, Berkeley, where she is now Maxine Elliot Professor in the Department of Rhetoric and Comparative Literature and co-director of the Program of Critical Theory.

Academically, Butler is most well known for her books Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity and Bodies That Matter: On the Discursive Limits of "Sex", which challenge notions of gender and develop her theory of gender performativity. This theory now plays a major role in feminist and queer scholarship. She has also actively supported lesbian and gay rights movements and been outspoken on many contemporary political issues. In particular, she is a vocal critic of Israeli politics and its effect on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, emphasizing that Israel does not and should not be taken to represent all Jews or Jewish opinion.

Image ⁱ

^Interesting: ^Gender ^studies ^| ^Queer ^theory ^| ^{Post-structuralism} ^| ^Gender ^Trouble

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Why is it such a big deal that red pillers want to be masculine?

Nothing wrong with that. You forget to mention how RP feels that that is the best for everyone though. RP often refuses to acknowledge that people can hailly function outside of traditional gender roles.

TBP is oppressive to cis white males because it denies them the ability to be free to express who they really are inside.

Nonsense. This is a huge strawman.

So, what's the issue? Why are you not celebrating masculinity with them and allowing them to celebrate your choices/leanings/whateveryouwannacallit about your sexuality?

I'm not condemning them for choosing to be masculine? That's your strawman speaking. If they are happy with that than that is great! I challenge the RP belief that men and women are the happiest in their traditional gender roles, since there are plenty of people for who that does not apply.

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You forget to mention how RP feels that that is the best for everyone though.

What? That has never been stated.

Nonsense. This is a huge strawman.

No. This is not a straw man. This is exactly what TBP stands in the way of. Your sub is designed specifically to pick on "neckbeards" which you label misogynists, who are really just men that want to be in straight cis relationships with women. Your sub mocks masculine men, especially men trying to learn how to be masculine.

I challenge the RP belief that men and women are the happiest in their traditional gender roles, since there are plenty of people for who that does not apply.

It's the men who are forced to be emasculated that are truly happiest in traditional gender roles. Also, there are women being confused by this same feminist propaganda, and they really are happiest as feminine submissive types. I've talked to many who truly feel this way.

Is is all women? No. Is it all men? No. This isn't a straw man. I'm saying TBP stands in the way of these people who really do feel comfortable in traditional gender roles.

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Section 6. Genetic of article XY sex-determination system:

For a long time, biologists believed that the female form was the default template for the mammalian fetuses of both sexes. After the discovery of the testis-determining gene SRY, many scientists shifted to the theory that the genetic mechanism that determines a fetus to develop into a male form was initiated by the SRY gene, which was thought to be responsible for the production of testosterone and its overall effects on body and brain development. This perspective still shared the classical way of thinking; that in order to produce two sexes, nature has developed a default female pathway and an active pathway by which male genes would initiate the process of determining a male sex, as something that is developed in addition to and based on the default female form. This view is no longer considered accurate by most scientists who study the genetics of sex. In an interview for the Rediscovering Biology website, researcher Eric Vilain described how the paradigm changed since the discovery of the SRY gene:

^Interesting: ^ZW ^{sex-determination} ^system ^| ^{Sex-determination} ^system ^| ^X ^chromosome ^| ^Sex

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Defeminization and masculinization:

Defeminization and masculinization are the processes that a fetus goes through to become a male.

It has often been said that in sexual differentiation in mammals, the female is the "default" developmental pathway, in the sense that elimination of any of several gene actions necessary for formation of male genitalia leads to the development of external female genitalia (though development of functional ovaries requires effective action of several less understood sex-specific genes). Two processes: defeminization, and masculinization, are involved in producing male typical morphology and behavior. Disruption of either of these processes in males produces female-typical development. The opposite is not true, disruption of normal sexual development in females does not lead to male-typical endpoints.

Defeminization involves the suppression of the development of female typical morphology (development of the Müllerian ducts into the fallopian tubes, uterus and vagina) and behavioural predispositions. Masculinization involves the production of male typical morphology (development of the Wolffian ducts into male reproductive structures) and behavioural predispositions. Both defeminization and masculinization are required for a mammalian zygote to become a fully reproductively functional male.

A brief version of the female default paradigm can be stated as follows:

A set of specific genetic instructions must be present and a series of differentiating events mediated by hormones must occur in order for a mammalian zygote to become a fully reproductively functional male.

The SRY, SOX9, and SF1 genes must be present and functional.

Functional Leydig cells must form in the gonads.

The Leydig cells must be able to produce testosterone.

The target cells must have the hormone receptors to respond to the testosterone. The target cells of the external genitalia must have functional 5-alpha-reductase enzyme to convert some of the testosterone to more active dihydrotestosterone.

There is some evidence that the brain must be exposed and respond to androgens either prenatally or early in life to produce characteristic mating behavior. This is well demonstrated in many animal species but remains mostly speculative with respect to humans.

To a large extent, each step builds on the previous. If anything goes wrong at any of the first four steps, the subsequent pathway of development results in female anatomy and behavior.

No ovarian organizing gene homologous to SRY has been discovered. Both sexes are exposed to maternal estrogen prenatally. No hormones have yet been discovered that are necessary early in life to produce female sexual development. Estrogen seems not to be necessary until puberty for purposes of differentiation.

The full development of male characteristics also includes personal experience throughout life, determining gender identity, gender roles and sexual orientation. However, there is much debate on the balance between nature and nurture in the determination.

^Interesting: ^Sexual ^{differentiation} ⁱⁿ ^humans ^| ^Y ^chromosome ^| ^{Defeminization} ^| ^{Sertoli-Leydig} ^cell ^tumour

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Women are actually men with tiny penises

If you're honest with yourself and really look at it, "women" are less developed men in a physical sense. Their penises are so small they barely even protrude out from the crotch in most cases, so we call it a clitoris and tell them they're a different gender entirely so as not to offend them. (This explains why Feminism is so full of lies and makes women hostile to men, but we can get into that topic another time.) Their labias are ball sacks that didn't finish forming, so their balls go all the way up their asses and turn into ovaries. This basically makes women literal pussified men, and I guess that's why angry women insult men so much with that term. It makes sense that they use it unconsciously since it is a projection of such a deep insecurity.

If you put makeup on a man and grow out his hair, he's almost entirely indistinguishable from a woman. (This is assuming if he does not develop his body like a woman doesn't.) Also, I'm talking about if we use a man who is naturally not hard to look at in the first place. If you want to argue that a man in drag looks nothing like a woman by pointing to someone like Danny Diveto then you must be honest and also look at the women who can't help their looks either. Androgyny proves men are just as beautiful as women and have the capacity to be more so with the same meticulous attention to detail women typically display.

Women are less capable of rational thought that isn't hindered by the chaos of erratic fleeting emotions

I assume this is mostly because we live in a gynocracy created by the Feminist agenda, women don't have to challenge themselves mentally if they don't want to. Though I will admit there are many very smart women out there, I just wish a lot of them didn't do it because they feel like they have something to prove because it completely defeats the purpose of being smart in the first place.

If you look at women's magazines and news, it's mostly just vapid celebrity gossip because women are more prone to herd creature mentality who typically don't think for themselves. I'm not hating, I'm just pointing at the facts. Women are generally more interested in what other people are doing, how they look, what kind of status they have, etc. That's why most women never contribute anything of worth to society. Is it all of them? No. There are women who have done great things, and I'm sure that that will become more of a norm as time goes on. Especially now that we live in an age where women have an advantage with the way technology allows them to communicate like never before.

This could be a turning point where even the least capable of us now have a shot at competing on a more even playing field. Not that I ever viewed men and women as rivals in the first place. I think the rivalry is more of a woman view of the world because of insecurity, and men don't see it that way because they have no reason to really feel threatened due to their natural superiority. I also think this is why men are more nurturing than women in general. A woman makes the mistake of thinking she's the most nurturing creature due to raising a child or children, but what she doesn't see is how the man is providing for literally everyone involved, which makes her more or less a cog in a bigger machine.

Women are more shallow and less solution-oriented

Kinda piggybacking off the last point here. Women are more concerned with how stuff looks than how it functions, and that explains why most women have never contributed anything of actual worth to the advancement of society. On the bright side, I can say they have provided a lot of cosmetic improvements, but it's almost always about form over function. In a way, men need women for this reason. Men design the engine, women make the casing look good.

Women can't provide for themselves without men

It just goes to show that women would not be able to survive on their own, which unfortunately makes them lesser males. There have been studies that prove this is true. They are not as well equipped to handle the stresses of life out in the wild, and it's not their fault. It's just how they were born. This is also why many of them cling to Feminism. The women who understand that the man woman relationship is one of synergy aren't going to bite the hands that feed them. Feminism says to bite the hand clean off if they can, which makes them bad people in many ways. It really is a parasite that must be eliminated, at least in its current incarnation.

Women tend to be hyper insecure control freaks

Women, typically of the Feminist variety, lie about everything when talking to men because of this deep penis envy insecurity. They use passive manipulations because it is impossible to dominate men in the physical realm. They lie to everyone including themselves about their objective values in society, and it convinces them that their vaginas are worth more than men as a whole. Misery loves company, so they congregate together and talk about how men are worthless to make themselves feel better about having tiny micro penises. They talk about how to make men feel bad. How to shame them. How to keep the price of pussy at a premium so they don't have to work hard. They work together to spread lies about the plight of women for sympathy and extra resource allocation. Deep down, these women know the only thing they have to offer men is their sex, so they wield it like weapons to get what they want, because if they really tried to be equals, they would realize they actually need to work hard to earn their keep. They do all this because they think being in a dominant position, thus having everything, will make them happy. Sadly, women are slaves to their emotions, and no matter how hard they try to chase this power, they will never be happy until they learn to accept themselves the way they are like the rest of society.

By contrast, all men have much bigger penises, so now we can all see that gender itself is a spectrum. Themost alpha of males have the biggest penies, and the most beta of males are actually what we call women. Men are capable of controlling their emotions and separating them from rational thoughts. They are solution-oriented. They are nurturing. Their bodies are stronger. They can stand up while they piss. They are basically superior women in most if not all ways.

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but men have done more to invent and advance technology on the whole, and that's the point.

Yes, no argument there...but then again the percentage of men who have done this is a very tiny percentage of all men. Most of us, male or female, aren't special snowflakes whose names get written down in history books, period.

I find the constant refrain of "men were almost solely inventors and made great scientists and blah blah" that comes from TRP to be rather tedious. I just don't buy the idea that you should take pride in the fact that you happen, by chance, to share some physical characteristic like race or sex with some people who have done great things. Just because you share a trait doesn't mean that you yourself have the same capability to do great things or make history.

I surmise most men like this are probably what results when you oppress and tell a man he is worthless from birth all the way into adulthood.

Or they could be coddled narcissists who never learned to actually do useful things for other people.

Really, the basis for your generalizations seems to be more based on your feelings and preconceived notions rather than facts.

...do things to promote success for both that doesn't come at the expense of the other.

Well, this I agree with. I don't think there's much to be gained for either sex by claiming the other sex is evil or oppressive.

[–]quiet-observerDeviant1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

I know you put a lot of thought into this but it reads to me as if you've convinced yourself of the answer before asking the question, (which is why Freud isn't considered valid, now that I think about it). I'm just assuming that because the "feminist agenda" has little to do with most of your points.

You can easily turn the tiny penis thing around and say that men are just women with enlarged clitoris', with outer labia developed into testicles and underdeveloped breasts, which is why men have nipples or something. Nipples are a leftover from foetal development.

I also prefer cross dressing and androgyny on a man so I'm not really going to comment on that. Barrel chested, bearded viking men are ugly.

Men and women are equally shallow when you take a step back so I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. Human nature and nature in general is shallow. I've yet to see people interact with each other without some shallow or self-serving reason to do so, personally (attention, status, love, politics, money, self-image).

Female contribution towards the advancement of Western society has actually been difficult due to the stigma attached to a thinking woman. Intelligent, upper class women were once considered mentally ill and so not taken as seriously, and female contributions to art and literature were often done so under a pen name as it was difficult to succeed in those fields if you were outed as a woman (such as Mary Shelley). Some female philosophers in Greece were even murdered, like Hypatia.

Women not acting as family providers is a relatively Christian thing, really. In many ancient cultures, both men and women acted as hunter-gatherers otherwise they would not eat and their community would die. I like reading about this kind of thing in anthropology.

The hyper-insecure thing is a personal opinion based on personal experiences. If you want, I can bring this thought up to my psychology class and have a discussion on the merits and foundations of this statement, but I'm not sure of any case studies or approved theories that delve into it.

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man-5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

You can easily turn the tiny penis thing around and say that men are just women with enlarged clitoris', with outer labia developed into testicles and underdeveloped breasts, which is why men have nipples or something. Nipples are a leftover from foetal development.

The reason I am forced to conclude that "men" are superior and more developed is because they truly are better equipped to weather the elements than their "female counterparts." We're talking about function over form, which is the area that men excel at well beyond women.

This isn't about hating women. I appreciate the female form, and I love a woman who can overcome her nature. Likewise, I appreciate men who can overcome their natures just as much. What I see is hard to deny.

Female contribution towards the advancement of Western society has actually been difficult due to the stigma attached to a thinking woman.

This has been debunked many times including right here in the modern era where currently women are more concerned with aesthetics than progress. They're focusing on stuff like gender and privilege instead of doing anything that would actually elevate women without taking away the rights of men.

I'm not saying women can't contribute to the advancement of society, because that's not true. They can and they have. It's just that most go about it wrong or don't care about doing it correctly at all.

Intelligent, upper class women were once considered mentally ill and so not taken as seriously, and female contributions to art and literature were often done so under a pen name as it was difficult to succeed in those fields if you were outed as a woman (such as Mary Shelley). Some female philosophers in Greece were even murdered, like Hypatia.

That's not how it is today though. People have grown out of that. Why are women still acting like this is the 50s? Use those brains and make the world a better place, ladies.

Women not acting as family providers is a relatively Christian thing, really. In many ancient cultures, both men and women acted as hunter-gatherers otherwise they would not eat and their community would die. I like reading about this kind of thing in anthropology.

Right, those relationships are more synergistic out in nature. The Christian relationship is one of synergy as well, it's just more domesticated. Women are most certainly providers in Christian relationships. They provide love to the husband and children, care for the house, and help raise the children. It's really not a bad deal. I'm surprised women actually want jobs if ultimately they're going to get baby rabies anyway.

The hyper-insecure thing is a personal opinion based on personal experiences. If you want, I can bring this thought up to my psychology class and have a discussion on the merits and foundations of this statement, but I'm not sure of any case studies or approved theories that delve into it.

I would be very interested to hear a follow up on this topic. I think if nothing else it would provide a thought-provoking dialogue.

[–]SteephinFucking Loser5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

The reason I am forced to conclude that "men" are superior and more developed is because they truly are better equipped to weather the elements than their "female counterparts." We're talking about function over form, which is the area that men excel at well beyond women.

If the male body is so efficient, then why are testicles not internal, thus further protecting them from physical damage? Testicles descend externally because the body's core temperature is too high for spermatogenesis to be effective, right? Anything above 95 degrees Fahrenheit hinders sperm development, so 98.6 presents a bit of problem. Instead, they dangle vulnerably from our groins because evolution couldn't be bothered to raise the functional temperature of a spermatozoon by a measly 3.6 degrees. One wrong kick from Glorb the tribe alpha during war games and you're effectively rendered sterile. "Better equipped" my ass.

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How does menstruation make someone less "efficient," as you put it? How does expelling blood and mucosal tissue make one more vulnerable? Other than it being cosmetically unappealing, it doesn't put the woman at any sort of physiological disadvantage. The best argument you could make for it putting a woman at a physiological disadvantage is iron deficiency and anemia, both of which are easily fixed with adrenaline released during potentially life-threatening situations. If you want to make the argument that sex-based physical differences make men objectively superior to women, then what about prostate cancer? What about Alport Syndrome, which can cause kidney failure and premature death? The gene mutation that causes it is carried on X chromosomes, and since women have two, it means that they have potential to have one healthy chromosome and one abnormal one. If men carry the mutation on their only X chromosome, they're fucked.

You see? There are tons of different sex-specific diseases, deficiencies, and mutations that one can cite as evidence to the claim that one sex is "like, totally better" than the other. Which sex wins out in the end? I'll give you a hint: neither, because using sex-specific physiology to determine superiority is impossible. It's a false equivalency. It's like saying apples are better than oranges because apples are more red. It doesn't make any sense.

TL;DR: Yeah, I'm telling you you're stupid.

[–]Stair_Car7 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

She could trip on the blood running down her leg and land on a leopard.
She could mistake her menstrual blood for jam and, distracted by its deliciousness, get eaten by a leopard.
The dripping sound of several consecutive weeks of bloodflow could finally drive the local leopard population mad, resulting in an attack.
Blood that is lost to menstruation is blood that cannot be used to inflate a penis, which might be useful in intimidating a leopard.
The rapid egress of blood and mucosal tissue can cause a loud "fudabidah" noise as the labia minora flap against one another. This is known to attract leopards.
Drops of blood on the ground can give away the position of any menstruating woman trying to hide from a pursuing leopard.
Outward signs of difference could fill male members of the tribe with discomfort, causing them to withhold protection against leopards.
By the principle of cohesion, a moving fluid can "pull" the fluid behind it in a tube, like water moving up a tree. This means that any blood leaving out the bottom of the torso will draw blood away from the brain. Leopards fucking hate that.

[–]DocileBanalBovine6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]RedPill4LYF-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How does menstruation make someone less "efficient," as you put it? How does expelling blood and mucosal tissue make one more vulnerable? Other than it being cosmetically unappealing, it doesn't put the woman at any sort of physiological disadvantage. The best argument you could make for it putting a woman at a physiological disadvantage is iron deficiency and anemia, both of which are easily fixed with adrenaline released during potentially life-threatening situations.

You're trying really hard to pretend like bleeding uncontrollably and being reduced to an emotional wreck for extended periods of time isn't a huge disadvantage compared to simply having a nut sack. You also demonstrate a lack of knowledge about male genitalia that is more fun to let you be wrong about than correct.

If you want to make the argument that sex-based physical differences make men objectively superior to women, then what about prostate cancer? What about Alport Syndrome, which can cause kidney failure and premature death? The gene mutation that causes it is carried on X chromosomes, and since women have two, it means that they have potential to have one healthy chromosome and one abnormal one. If men carry the mutation on their only X chromosome, they're fucked.

All irrelevant, especially since these arbitrary hypothetical what ifs specifically ignore the myriad potential problems women face as well. (e.g., "What about breast cancer?") How dishonest can you really be here? You are stretching so hard to justify how women aren't inferior physically to men, and I don't know why. The comparison assumes we're talking about the merits of otherwise healthy males and females based purely on the efficiency of their survival capabilities. Having balls is way more preferable than having a period, full fuckin' stop.

You see? There are tons of different sex-specific diseases, deficiencies, and mutations that one can cite as evidence to the claim that one sex is "like, totally better" than the other. Which sex wins out in the end? I'll give you a hint: neither, because using sex-specific physiology to determine superiority is impossible. It's a false equivalency. It's like saying apples are better than oranges because apples are more red. It doesn't make any sense.

TL;DR: Yeah, I'm telling you you're stupid.

Hahah do you see! Blah blah random problems blah blah reasons blah blah there's no answer!

You can say I'm stupid all you want, but the proof is plain to see for anyone of a rational mind reading all this that a man is simply built more efficiently when we're talking about survival capabilities.

[–]Steephin6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

bleeding uncontrollably

Some women barely bleed at all.

emotional wreck

Subjective terminology based on your personal opinion. Invalid.

You also demonstrate a lack of knowledge about male genitalia that is more fun to let you be wrong about than correct.

Says the guy who thinks ovaries are up a woman's ass.

What about breast cancer?

Men get breast cancer too.

How dishonest can you really be here? You are stretching so hard to justify how women aren't inferior physically to men, and I don't know why.

I'm not saying that women are just as physically strong as men, I'm saying that physical strength does not equal objective superiority. By your logic, lions are physically stronger than humans, so that must mean lions are "better" and more evolutionarily fit than humans. And yet you call me dishonest. Not only are your views pathetically myopic, they're also hypocritical.

Having balls is way more preferable than having a period, full fuckin' stop.

Uh oh, guys, he said "full fuckin' stop" at the end of his sentence, that must mean he's right.

By all means, keep talking. It's kind of amusing in a sad way.

[–]RedPill4LYF-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Some women barely bleed at all.

It still bleeds, and you're ignoring the other problems associated with periods. So far, balls are still way better.

Subjective terminology based on your personal opinion. Invalid.

Actually no. You will experience mood swings you have no control over. Totally valid in this argument about efficiency. Balls still win out here.

Says the guy who thinks ovaries are up a woman's ass.

Not everything I say is literal, genius. You're not even smart enough to realize how petty and weak this is as an argument.

Men get breast cancer too.

Still not relevant to the actual argument my pedantic friend.

I'm not saying that women are just as physically strong as men, I'm saying that physical strength does not equal objective superiority.

Not alone it doesn't, sure, but there are many factors you're being willfully ignorant about now.

By your logic, lions are physically stronger than humans, so that must mean lions are "better" and more evolutionarily fit than humans.

We're talking about men and women, not anything else. Irrelevant.

And yet you call me dishonest. Not only are your views pathetically myopic, they're also hypocritical.

If you're so certain then do tell.

Uh oh, guys, he said "full fuckin' stop" at the end of his sentence, that must mean he's right.

By all means, keep talking. It's kind of amusing in a sad way.

You quoted me directly after I gave you my reason for why I would say that. You're just snarking without actually saying anything. Being a smug asshole only works when you make a point.

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[–]quiet-observerDeviant2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

My issue is that a lot of what you said seems incredibly biased, occasionally bordering on irrationality.

I am studying the social sciences and humanities, with personal reading into anthropology, art, world history, the history of art, the history of literature and philosophy. I have encountered a lot of men this and women that, which is why I am trying to discuss some of what you brought up, but ultimately my interests lie in what makes humans human, so I'm really not that well equipped for discussion on sex and gender and can't provide much insight.

As for why women still haven't provided much in the fields of sciences, well I assume that it is because it takes a very long time for culture to continue to develop when it comes to things like religion and politics. We've seen a lot of new changes and women entering research fields, but sixty years is almost nothing when it comes to cultural changes, particularly with so many people still clinging to and teaching traditional gender roles. It's the beginning of a long and steady process.

My psychology class will be given a chance to do some independent case studies soon so I can volunteer some sort of gender study (although I'm personally not interested in the differences between men and women, but I'm sure some people are), although I can't promise my group will go for it.

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Gender is socially determined: in much of the Western world, there are 2 'default' genders (masculine/male and feminine/female).

This is not the default everywhere. Albania has 'sworn virgins', who take a vow of chastity and dress as men to live as men. The Indian subcontinent has "hijra" (which encompasses both transgender and third-gender). Etc.

In addition, there are people who--for biological reasons, see below; or for political reasons, to deliberately subvert gender expectations, e.g. genderfuck/some expressions of genderqueer; or because of legitimate feeling of not belonging to one or the other--identify with neither male/female gender. These can include agender; genderfuck; androgynous; and genders heavily associated with certain queer sexualities and may or may not be broadly applicable outside of that subculture (notably boi; sometimes femme, butch).

Just like sexuality, you can discover you were wrong about it (cf. people coming out as a lesbian to their husband, or gay to their wife) and you can try to reframe your gender to match your new perception of it.

Sex is biologically determined on a spectrum. You can have people with standard male hormonal development, male reproductive organs, and male chromosomes. Or you can have someone with ambiguous genitalia but XY chromosomes and standard male hormones. Or people with unclear chromosomes (Klinefelter's syndrome is the result of being XXY instead of XX or XY). Or unambiguous genitalia and chromosomes but ambiguous hormonal expression. These people may or may not identify as 'intersex' (which is a thing; there are intersex advocates) and it is still fairly common that doctors make a guess when they are born, do 'corrective' genital surgery, and hope they didn't guess wrong.

[–]IvanMartinovich0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	How many genders are there?
Author	fizolof
Upvotes	5
Comments	271
Date	November 18, 2014 3:07 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2mo3p9/how_many_genders_are_there/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-many-genders-are-there.284342 https://theredarchive.com/post/284342

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