Hypergamy is misunderstood, which is a shame because it is a useful way of understanding relationships

PPD-Angel · 2018-10-09T12:56:45+00:00

This post is making an affirmative claim and will be re-tagged as a CMV. All top level comments must challenge the OP's view.

Truedemocracy4 · 2018-10-09T13:55:47+00:00

Very good example. Knew several artsy nerdy type girls who were very attractive and thus dated "jocks" "frat stars" etc. the inverse of this is flat out nearly impossible

For men it's all about looks. For women it's all about status which has a looks component

reluctantly_red · 2018-10-09T14:21:56+00:00

men place little to no value on your achievements and achievements are very costly in terms of time and effort.

This is certainly true for casual relationships. However, if a guy is successful enough to be MC or UMC and good enough looking to have options he sure as shit will care about her achievements and background. The good looking young doctor at the local hospital is not going to marry the pretty young receptionist with only a high school education (but he will bang her in the storage closet).

TheGreasyPole · 2018-10-09T13:19:27+00:00

OK, first I'd expand on your definitions of the terminology slightly.

You're correct in that how science uses the word Hypergamy it covers "women who choose men higher in social status only". However, how RP uses the term it refers to a wider concept than this, generally that "Women who choose men they perceive as higher quality". That can involve factors other than social status. You can be of a low social status and still be a high quality male if you make up for that deficiency with other Alpha or Beta traits.

So I'd like to change your view to include these other aspects in addition to social standing. That may well change your advice jumping off from the "social standing ONLY" definition.

I agree with you that Hypergamy is misunderstood, it's not actually a bad thing in any objective sense. It's only a bad thing in the subjective sense that either "I personally am a low quality male, so I don't like it as it's bad for me" .... or.... in the sense "That doesn't sound very nice, so it must be a bad thing RP is calling women, and so those RPM are calling me a bad thing when they say women are hypergamous".

So, CYV to expand the definition (and so your advice) beyond merely social standing and we're in agreement.

Eartherry · 2018-10-09T15:14:33+00:00

Men don't require their partners to have high status, women do.

Let me just clarify, status means something different for men and women. Men think of status more like fame. Like peacocks, getting more attention than the next guy ensures his chances of mating are higher.

Women are goal oriented. The goals we have exist before starting relationships and persist when they're over. No matter if we're in a relationship or who it's with, it's coordinated with that goal in mind. Men are either necessary for completing that goal, will help accelerate reaching it, or will slow down/stop progress. Status is a good indicator of how they'll affect reaching that goal.

Let's say the goal is to be a wife and have kids. Status is then less important as the majority of men are guaranteed to produce sperm and are capable of the compassion to be family-men.

Let's say the goal is owning a successful business. A high status man can help accelerate that, but it's possible without a man at all. Anyone lower can get in the way with that as the demands from the relationship will likely sap resources away from the goal.

mountainbass · 2018-10-10T04:11:06+00:00

Men are less shallow because they place importance on things that are not external to the woman. They love the woman for her beauty and her personality. A female's "attraction" is often heavily based upon what you stated (such as social circle) which depends upon the man but is also external to him and can be taken away easily (similarly to him losing his money).

Look at the whole of humanity and human achievement and art. Look at which partner will die for the other (men routinely risk life for their GF, but not the other way around at all). To call men shallow is a sick joke and shows shallow thought.

KerPop42 · 2018-10-09T13:39:48+00:00

This makes it sounds like hypergamy is a man being frustrated that women have higher standards than them.

You're assuming that all men are as shallow as you are, which is really uncharitable and just sounds like someone trying to justify not being more invested in their partner's personhood.

For your high school analogy, from what I remember nerdy girls still put more effort into their appearance than an equally nerdy guy, which would account for this hypothetical gap in dating popular people.

Anyways, your summary in the bottom is abhorrent. It's no worse than generally shitty if you don't care about your girlfriend as a person, but leave the rest of us guys out of it.

LewisCross · 2018-10-09T17:00:47+00:00

The issue is not that men don't understand hypergamy. The issue is that men don't LIKE hypergamy.

Some men don't like it because they can't compete in that marketplace.

Most men don't like it because of what it says about women - that they're shallow, ruthless, cold, calculating, and will dump a less than guy in a heartbeat if they can get a bigger better deal.

Men don't want to believe this about women, and they hate it about them. But, it is what it is, it's a female design feature, it cannot be designed out, and we all have to deal with it.

reluctantly_red · 2018-10-09T14:15:19+00:00

OP really underestimates the importance of looks (at least for women who are not in grab the last branch on the way down mode). Physical attraction is the first hurdle. Nothing else matters if the guy is not good enough looking to get over this hurdle. For that reason if a guy isn't good looking almost all his effort needs to go into improving his looks. Only once a guy has gotten over the looks hurdle do any of his achievements or his social circle matter.

To use yet another high school example -- a big fat slob may be a great offensive lineman and be down with all the jocks on the football team but he still ain't going to get laid (at least not by sober girls).

BajaBlast90 · 2018-10-09T17:21:37+00:00

For women: men place little to no value on your achievements and achievements are very costly in terms of time and effort. Thinking that men value status is projecting, and can even limit your options unwittingly. If your aim is to land a partner, appearance and health will probably give you the best return for your time.

This isn't necessarily true. Men don't necessarily care about status for casual hookups but not so much for LTRs or marriage. Appearance and health are important but they aren't the only deciding factors when it comes to LTRs and marriage.

For women: men place little to no value on your achievements and achievements are very costly in terms of time and effort.

Are men who think that so vain and self absorbed that they actually think that women's acheivements are for the sake of impressing men? People hustle because they have goals and dreams to attain. It's not all about you.

Orange_Paisley · 2018-10-09T18:17:51+00:00

I place my own value on my achievements. If a man places no value on my efforts and is not supportive of them, I don't want to date him.

GridReXX · 2018-10-09T18:41:23+00:00

For women: men place little to no value on your achievements and achievements are very costly in terms of time and effort. Thinking that men value status is projecting, and can even limit your options unwittingly. If your aim is to land a partner, appearance and health will probably give you the best return for your time.

This should be framed from a relative perspective.

As should "hypergamy."

The CEO of American Express or Managing Partner at a top tier law firm isn't going to marry the uneducated Hooter's waitress who "looks hot" and is "in good health."

But a porn magnet might. A low IQ NFL player might. The manager at Dairy Queen in podunk, Idaho might.

Socio/Economic status is important when parsing these things; as well as the type of relationship -- casual/hookup vs LTR/marriage.

I think men understand hypergamy and that women can be sometimes calculating, they just don't like it.

In the same way women understand men will fuck or sometimes want to fuck literally anything including an "11 year old girl... she looks 17!" and sometimes their own daughters or sons..., we just don't like it.

larrythetomato · 2018-10-09T13:03:57+00:00

Ok let me get this straight.

If person themselves unattractive then hypergamy

If attractive themselves then usually not hypergamous

Everyone just wants someone who is good enough looks wise and looks aren't relative they are absolute. So that is what it boils down to.

Men also function the same way.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-10-09T13:47:39+00:00

This is not the definition of the red pill term of art "hypergsmy", son it is not "misunderstood" and your premise is false

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RoyalAugur92 · 2018-10-09T14:15:38+00:00

For men: women aren't as shallow as you

No, they're far, far, FAR more shallow than we are.

abaxeron · 2018-10-09T19:40:08+00:00

This gives both men and women something. Men learn why some of their past rejections occurred, and women their own nature. Both are able to work with human nature and not against it.

Yeah, if a crocodile bites off your hand, you both gain something. The crocodile satiates its hunger, and you get to experience such a rare thing today as phantom pain and get your food consumption reduced for the rest of your life. If you survive the sepsis, of course /s

newDerivur · 2018-10-09T20:07:44+00:00

Hypergamy is misunderstood

It's plenty well understood. Most RP'ers don't blame hypergamy. They blame virtue signaling and blue pilling, as well as the lack of foresight many women have throughout life.

Think about these high school situations: nerdy girl is interested in a popular guy, and a nerdy guy is interested in a popular girl. These are not the same.

Yeah, one is true while the other is false. Sure a nerdy guy will crush on a popular girl but most only really want to date their looksmatch at that point. The last American Virgin was fiction. Good fiction, but still fiction.

Because of hypergamy, the nerdy girl has a better chance than the nerdy guy of landing a popular partner.

If your definition of "landing" is a pump'n dump, sure. We no longer live in 10.000 BC raising our kids in communes of shared responsibility (and even there the beta men got some sex).

An effective strategy for the nerdy girl would be to spend time with the guy and be noticed, while an effective strategy for the nerdy guy would be to start making friend with high status people (or accomplish things, do sports etc.)

You mean other than the accomplishing things he ALREADY does (that are seen as marks of a loser by the "nerdy" girl & her posse)?
Goddamn, Melvin & George have to be fucking supermen just to get a freaking date!
Meanwhile Fred & Nick only have to be decent at sports & over 6' tall.

For men: women aren't as shallow as you (but hey, they still appreciate looks).

Yeah, WE'RE the sex who only wants to date partners over 6' tall (INB4 "Then why don't you date 250lbs women?") who are muscular and athletic.
WE'RE the sex who thinks a quiet person who's good looking is "mysterious", but a quiet ugly person is "creepy".

The best strategy is to become recognised in a social circle with many women. Gym is only going to take you so far.

There was a thing called 'monk mode' (avoiding social interactions to work on yourself),

It still exists.

it didn't work because it missed the most important and attractive trait: building a social circle.

LOL, an ugly nerd can only build a social circle if he's rich and able to navigate all the shit tests that hot guys never get.

That is why you don't hear about it any more. It was a failed practice.

No, you don't hear about it anymore because those men don't brag about how great monk mode is. If you really manage to achieve inner peace, you won't need the validation of women anymore.

In fact, if you're an ugly male, MONK MODE IS YOUR BEST SHOT at becoming a self-sufficient, "spiritually" fulfilled individual. Even if you manage to land a relationship, she'll only settle for you, cheat on you, and always look for a better male to monkey-branch to.

As an ugly guy you could be superman and she'd still cheat on you with Chad given the chance.

For women: men place little to no value on your achievements and achievements are very costly in terms of time and effort. Thinking that men value status is projecting, and can even limit your options unwittingly. If your aim is to land a partner, appearance and health will probably give you the best return for your time.

For women: Beauty is distributed in a Gaussian fashion. Most of you are average in looks & men only hound you because we are thirsty as fuck. Your achievements don't matter "to the men you desire" because they can ALWAYS get a younger, tighter, hotter version of you (in terms of appearance).

Better to focus on (if that's what you still desire) finding a decent partner in the circles around you and locking him down as a LTR in your mid-late 20s. You had all your teens and most of your 20s to have fun with Chad.
Let that dream go peacefully or risk joining the single in her 40s, wine & cat, childless lady.

And I'm not saying this out of bitterness, I know I'm ugly and no woman wants me, and nothing I say or do will change their opinion of me XD

But look around you at the media and all the has-been-socialites turned good-man-seekers who froze their eggs while holding out for Mr.Perfect "6' hood nigga from Harvard" (or "6' Simon City Royal from Yale" for white guys).

The3liGator · 2018-10-09T20:41:25+00:00

Women aren't as shallow as men?

Source?

bonusfruit · 2018-10-09T22:11:12+00:00

I think your understanding of hypergamy is flawed. The attempt to equalize and draw similarities between female and male mate selection has become a meme at this point. The nerdy guy likes most of the girls and all of the girls like the popular guy. The popular guy gets all of the girls and the nerdy guy gets no one. Selection is cruel and one sided. It's not fair and it does not work out in the end. The nerdy guy isn't overlooking some girl who likes him because he's into a certain type. No one wants him. It's nothing like the female experience. There are no parallels to be drawn. A woman wants better. More. The desire never goes away. There is no lasting satisfaction or contentment a man can provide. Women are many times more shallow than men regarding looks in addition to the desire for status. It doesn't even out. Men are sexually worthless and women are sexually valuable, so they get to be that way. There are men who like women of all shapes and sizes. Zero women prefer short men to tall. Zero. Men of all races are far more open to women of all races. White men are the gold standard for women of all races as demonstrated by their behavior (not claims). Hypergamy is not evil, but neither is it to be candy coated as if it's for everyone's benefit. It's just female hind brain instinct. Nothing more nothing less

Smithersink · 2018-10-10T01:13:15+00:00

I won't disagree with this, I just think it's important to remain clear that we're making generalizations about the sexes here, and there's always variability in individuals. Some women care less about status, some men care more.

DangZagnut · 2018-10-10T02:50:35+00:00

Hypergamy is the tenancy for women to choose men who are ~~equal or~~ higher in the social hierarchy.

FTFY

It is important because this is how women pick mates. This gives both men and women something.

Tingles, status, and/or money?

Guys get nothing out of this. They achieve no benefit.

Also, why waste time with any of this?

An effective strategy for the nerdy girl would be to spend time with the guy and be noticed, while an effective strategy for the nerdy guy would be to start making friend with high status people (or accomplish things, do sports etc.)

All any woman over a 4 has to do, is be available and sexually active. As men don't have quite the laundry list of "needs" in a partner as women do. No matter what a woman does, being available and receptive to a man's attention is all she needs to do. Men date down and may date the weird nerdy girl for a short time, or may genuinely like her if she's receptive to being likeable.

If she's failing at that, she isn't girling right.

Also if she could hang out with popular high status people, she'd already be doing so, and not be a nerdy high school girl. She herself would be popular and higher status, and much like hypergamy in dating, accept hypergamy in social circles.

That's why you don't see a Kardashian hang out with the help.

For men: women aren't as shallow as you (but hey, they still appreciate looks). A laundry list of dating requirements does not indicate depth, it actually shows far more shallowness than a man, who will basically be content if she attempts to look attractive to be pleasant. That opens it up to almost all women. If you ever look at dating profiles for women almost none of it has to do with personality or the man himself. She has a framework in her head, and like a USB port, anyone can fill that framework.

So your solution for an asymmetrical dating system is do basically do all the things women want to fit a magical framework.

You know how hard it is to break into a social circle above you? As if that's even possible? Much less for them to see you at that level? You even no painful it is to build abdominals for even a week? Starvation and pain is the least of your issues.

If that was easy, everyone would be 6' tall, a millionaire, and a six pack of beer.

Nothing to do with personality btw, what's funny about that, is 6' people have a hard time making well defined abdominals. They tend to have more of a A-frame.

That is why you don't hear about it [monk mode] any more. It was a failed practice.

That would explain why lots of people do it and are happy removing toxic people from their life?

For women: men place little to no value on your achievements and achievements are very costly in terms of time and effort.

I, too, believe women are just moist holes for men's use. Wow. I suck I guess. Oh well, I'll go out and find a moist hole to temporarily remove my pain of being so lonely.

[deleted] · 2018-10-10T05:15:12+00:00

This is why I simply don't date much. I don't want to build a social circle. I'm not particularly interested in what most people talk about. I'd rather talk about deep subjects like science and spirituality or just be mindful and in an alpha brainwave state. The beta brainwave stimulation that occurs from typical western society, where people look at facebook for videos and memes all day long, telling every little detail of their lives, discussing sports, sex lives, other people, etc. is not the type of stimulation I'm looking for in my life.

I have nothing against these people, it's just not my cup of tea. To each their own. I'd honestly rather pursue being a buddhist monk, and thanks to the internet I can entertain a lot of these interests in my spare time.

Eastuss · 2018-10-10T07:16:08+00:00

You make a post about how hypergamy is misunderstood, but describe what everyone knows already. In addition you also show that you do not understand everything you talk about.

women aren't as shallow as you

Just because male SMV is more than their body doesn't mean women aren't shallow.

There was a thing called 'monk mode' (avoiding social interactions to work on yourself)

You misunderstand monk mode. Monk mode doesn't mean you're avoiding social interactions, monk mode means your objective is not women, nor sex, but many self improvement strategies showcased on TRP imply increasing your social network and social proof. I don't get how you can miss that because TRP prays a lot on social proof.

Five_Decades · 2018-10-13T16:46:55+00:00

Its easier to think of it in evolutionary terms.

You have 100 male animals and 100 female animals.

The men want to fuck most of the women. However the women only want the men who are best able to survive in the current environment. So they look for the most 'successful' 20% of men and try to procreate with them.

This creates a generation of children genetically competent to handle the environmental stressors that are being faced.

And those environmental stressors can change. Good looks signify health and a healthy immune system. In environments where there are lots of parasites, women value good looks more than they do in healthy societies.

In societies where poverty is rampant, women value resources more than they do in western societies.

Basically women are just looking for the top 20% of men who are best equipped to deal with the environment they are all living in, because they subconsciously know those men will produce children who are more likely to survive to adulthood and more likely to successfully procreate themselves.

And environmental stressors and challenges can change. Traits that make you a success in one environment make you a failure in another. Being an autistic nerd in today's society can mean you earn 6 figures as a computer programmer while that meant you were just a failure in most other societies. Meanwhile being a douchy alpha male may have meant you were a great hunter in the stone age, but in todays society it just means you are chronically unemployed and in and out of prison.

Women invest more in procreation, and they want to make sure their offspring are best equipped to survive and thrive. Men just have a spray and pray strategy.

Title	Hypergamy is misunderstood, which is a shame because it is a useful way of understanding relationships
Author	larrythetomato
Upvotes	24
Comments	123
Date	October 9, 2018 12:53 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9movqq/hypergamy_is_misunderstood_which_is_a_shame/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/hypergamy-is-misunderstood-which-is-a-shame.259574 https://theredarchive.com/post/259574

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