Men who spin plates shouldn't be bothered by women who do AFBB and women who do AFBB shouldn't be bothered by men who spin plates...right?

panickedperson · 2016-01-28T14:59:30+00:00

Then why is it that men who spin plates are always complaining about AFBB and hypergamy, especially on TRP, and women who do AFBB (even without realizing it)...

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Again I blame some women for being shitty at communicating their needs but just because maybe some of those women want to be ignored and dominated doesn't mean all women want to be. Maybe the dude should blatantly ask her what she wants when she says romancey shit say thats what I've been doing it has not changed. When I read some DB shit I see so many red flags for the two people anyways and I've only met one woman in my life who i have discussed in a previous comment who resembles holding sex over the man's head, doing passive agressive shit like that, and coincidentally begging for attention when she ignores him. She's also incredibly unstable and fucked in the head.

I don't know if I believe in monogamy either but I have oneitis. I can't imagine any other future or life besides one with my bf.

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[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe the dude should blatantly ask her what she wants when she says romancey shit say thats what I've been doing it has not changed.

Tried that.

The answer was always some form of "that's not enough" or "that is great, but there are still all these other things." Or, I might get lucky and it works for the moment, but the next moment we're back to square one because of something else…

Basically, it boils down to the fact that she doesn't feel desire. A lot of the time, she doesn't even know why she doesn't feel the desire, she just knows she doesn't.

So, when pressed, she comes up with some rational ideas for why she thinks that is and expresses them. But those are mostly guesses and based on what she thinks should make her feel desire. And, often times, how we should feel and how we actually feel are completely unrelated (take, for example, the common "I should feel happy right now, but I'm not!" condition).

Mostly, people don't know why they feel the way they feel. They only know that they do or do not want to feel that way.

That's why you can't negotiate desire.

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You disagree?

Yes: " I don't only hang around unhappy people".

Then she disagreed that she liked the sort of behavior that you attribute your success with women to. You immediately dismissed that without any basis, basically calling her a liar.

Actually, I asserted that declining sex for Beta Billy who gets settled for is commonplace. /u/appencapn claimed that it was a myth, but escalated my claim to be "most marriages end dead bedroom" - which I had never asserted to start with. I countered with another restatement of this being commonplace, supported by personal experience, forums like the DB sub, and standard joke material since forever. /u/MissMaude didn't understand that so came back with another misstatement of my position, getting the causality all cockeyed. (So far, just another day trying to debate people on the Internet. Sigh). She had another crack at shooting my point down asserting confirmation bias in my sources - again, getting this exactly backwards, and we had a diversion into stats. Kinda, mine were (as hers, I suspect, at core are) rubbish because most self-reported stats on sexual frequency are highly suspect.

At this point /u/appencapn came back in with the same confirmation bias schtick, and deployed the standard defence I described above, before heading off into speculation about the virtues of direct communication (yeah, right, lemme know how that works for you) and an anecdote about someone who willfully withholds sex from their partner - again, not the topic at hand, we're talking attraction and desire - before we wrapped it up and parted on friendly terms. Which got us here, to your particular brand of incomprehension, which seems to think I'm calling people liars, although gawd alone knows what put that idea in your head.

This is not a valid argument for dismissing someone else's beliefs, it's a way of dismissing a perspective because of, we will use your words, "ideology."

Indeed. This is an ideological sub, by and large, so when I see reflexive, ideological responses, rather than open-minded inquiry, I call it as such. I am indeed on the opposing team in this case. I assert that my position is better substantiated, such that discussions of this nature can be - but I suspect I didn't shift the views of /u/appencapn, which is fine by me. All amicable and good, no "liars" anywhere.

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If a woman follows her biology she gets fucked by a bunch of dick.

Not every woman has to "fuck a bunch of dick" as her biological imperative if you believe standard TRP theory. If she succeeds in locking down an alpha while at a young age into a long-term relationship, or if she gives up on finding a relationship with an alpha quickly and starts dual mating strategy early by finding a beta provider while having sex with an alpha on the side, then she doesn't have to "fuck a bunch of dick."

It actually works against female biological imperative to have sex with lots of alphas because it makes it more difficult to find that beta provider and to get him to trust her if he knows she has had too much alpha sex in the past. This is one of the flaws of TRP theory and why they tend to say things like "I don't trust women's numbers about how few partners they claim to have had."

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So why are promiscuous women shamed but beta men celebrated?

Not all promiscuous women are shamed. Not all beta men are celebrated. It just depends on your group. However, I get what you mean. Personally, I believe promiscuous women are shamed because there is a whole host of psychological issues that can coincide with promiscuity, but in the end it means they're not a good relationship partners. Easier into your bed, easier into someone else's.

As for beta men, I don't believe they are celebrated, by anyone. TRP thinks of them as wieners (not my personal opinion but that is the perception). The blue pill media doesn't like them either, see the doofy dad's trope. No one likes betas (which is unfortunate).

Why are the alphas who enjoy sex with sluts the ones doing the slut-shaming? Shouldn't they be celebrating it because they get NSA sex from it?

Some of them do celebrate it, but, again, if you can get sex for free, without any commitment, then what incentive do you have to treasure it? Use it, abuse it, and move on (note: this is not my personal opinion). The misogyny that some RP have is definitely real, but some of that is a reaction to how women present themselves.

Beta guys actually seem to be more okay with promiscuous women than then alpha guys who sleep with them. Why is that?

They accept sluts because they don't have many other options. That's pretty much it.

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AB isn't impossible, it's just rare.

I agree.

Here's a scenario where everyone's needs can be met. A rich alpha guy and his hot, faithful wife. Both members of the couple get what they want; the woman gets resources and commitment from an alpha guy, the man gets a beautiful woman who isn't cheating on and hasn't slept around.

Absolutely. That's why Fifty Shades of Grey is so popular with women. It's their version of perfect fantasy-fulfillment porn: a man who is exciting, sexy, dangerous, and an adventure to be with (AF), who is also willing to invest in them and stay with them (BB).

But notice one thing. In order for this to fulfill both partner's optimal sexual strategy, only the wife, not the husband, can be faithful. If the husband must be faithful, he is sacrificing his optimal sexual strategy to hers.

And if he isn't faithful, then both partners get their optimal sexual strategy, but a bunch of other women must sacrifice theirs.

And if they don't, because he has this deal with all of them, then there are other men who must sacrifice their optimal sexual strategy, because now there aren't enough women to go around.

Someone always has to give up something.

[–]panickedperson[S] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

In nature, those children would have likely died

You're only considering half the equation. What you're saying is like saying that spam can't possibly work because spam emails are likely deleted unread. The other half of the equation is the cost per attempt.

Spam is successful because the cost per message is near-zero. The male in /u/whisper's post is executing a successful strategy because his cost-per-offspring is very low.

You're also overstating how likely the children are to die. Human women cannot abort a pregnancy (some other species can) so a woman has an automatic nine-month investment. That's a very large incentive for her to make the investment worthwhile.

In practical terms, it means she finds another male and entreats him to "man up" and provide for the other guy's kid - or she just tells him it's his kid. In sciencey terms, it means that those women who secure the assistance of a different man, rather than just letting their child die, leave more and healthier offspring. And since all of this is driven by instinct, and the mechanism of instinct is always feelings, it means that modern women really do love their beta bucks (after they have a kid, anyway).

So I don't think the alpha's strategy is unsuccessful, and I don't think the children are too likely to die.

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But why is every man entitled to an adolescent virgin of equal SMV, anyway?

Even in the days of old marriage, not every man got married and not every man who did get married got a teen virgin of equal SMV.

Old marriage wasn't perfect. Many men back then died in war without ever getting married, without ever sleeping with a girl who wasn't a prostitute.

As a species, wee have more female ancestors than male ancestors because from the beginning of mankind, not all men were able to breed.

Therefore, a return to traditional marriage would not give every single man a teen virgin, no matter how much they wish it would.

A high SMV man can get a hot teen virgin girl, how do you think teen virgin girls lose their virginity, anyway?

But why do low SMV who do nothing to improve themselves demand a young, beautiful, virgin? That's the same as an unattractive woman demanding commitment from a rich, hot alpha.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]panickedperson[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

let's not go introducing the word "entitled" here.

That's basically what it is, though. A return to the old system of marriage means that basically everyone is entitled to a spouse due to societal expectations.

"The point is that it was more likely for partners of equal SMV to partner up, under the old system."

Equal SMV is low SMV in the case of many betas. Most fat, short, poor betas of low SMV are still attracted to hot, skinny, young girls. Would low SMV betas really be satisfied being married to fat, ugly, old wives?

ALL (straight) men want hot, young, virginal women. Being low SMV doesn't make a man attracted to low SMV women, he would still prefer high SMV women if he had the chance to get them.

A man can't truly be happy in a marriage to an ugly woman. He just wouldn't be attracted to her, the sex wouldn't be satisfying (if he could even get it up), and he would grow to resent her.

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"Men of low SMV will never get a beautiful virgin. They deserve a virgin of equally low SMV. Fat, hairy, etc."

That I agree with you on. People (males and females) shouldn't demand mates above their league.

"I just think it's reasonable to demand that hypergamy goes away. It's not fair that men don't get access to their partner's best sexual assets while women do (beta bucks is a man's best assets)."

I disagree. It would be biologically impossible to get rid of hypergamy without millions of years of evolution to change it. So that by definition is unreasonable.

And even if you could wave a wand and magically make hypergamy disappear, it's still unreasonable to demand that women not be attracted to the most attractive men (rich, alpha) unless you also demand that men not be attracted to the most attractive women (young, beautiful)

...unless you also have a wand to make men not care whether a woman is attractive or not and to make men not want to 'spread their seed' (the male equivalent to hypergamy is polygyny).

Now, while it unreasonable to try to get people not to be attracted to who they're predisposed to be attracted to, it IS reasonable to tell them that if they're not as attractive as the people they're attracted to, then they're not going to get sex/commitment from the people they're attracted to.

Old marriage wasn't perfect. "It was."

Disagree, as well. Old marriage wasn't perfect for men or for women. Women lacked rights, while many men were left out of the marriage market all together, unable to find wives.

"But it would be an improvement upon what we have today."

...possibly, depending upon what it entailed. A complete return to old marriage wouldn't solve the problem of people wanting wives/husbands out of their league and a portion of men not being able to get wives at all due to financial reasons.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link

[–]panickedperson[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

'm defining hypergamy as the physical act of a woman sleeping with a man of higher SMV, not the desire.

Okay. Yeah, behavior can be changed. Biological drives are much more difficult.

"women's rights = right to ride the carousel, get overpaid on affirmative action jobs, divorce-rape their beta hubbies, etc"

I was referring to the right to vote, own property, not be beaten by their husband, etc. Though some things are unfair in favor of women right now, you can't deny that things were unfair in favor of men in previous decades.

"More men were able to marry in the recent past (1950s) than today."

More men married due to social pressure. The same number are ABLE to now, if not more, they just choose not to because their is no social pressure to and single life is better.

By a return to old marriage you would force men and women into marriages where neither are happy.

Men would be denied the chance to 'spread their seed' (spin plates) and instead receive duty-sex from wives who may not be attracted to them. Men would have no incentive to be better in order to get a woman, since almost every man would have a wife, and so he would be unable to generate genuine attraction from his wife.

It would be bad for women, too. They would marry a man for money and because of societal expectations, but they wouldn't be attracted to him or love him.

Old marriage does make a society more stable, but it makes individuals extremely unhappy.

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[–]OlBastardRP|She said she was 18.0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Regardless of my sexual successes, I still am 'bothered' by women who do AFBB.

Why? It obviously benefits me, right?

Rationally, I see it as a detriment towards society. They are sad and pathetic humans who won't be happy - so yeah, I'm experiencing a bit of a schadenfreude as well.

And I empathize with my fellow man. I help my friends see through their GFs' bullshit, but I also see many men who are suckers to women's shit.

Society is a social contract where people behave in a certain way that benefits everyone. That's why female sexuality has been confined within limits - to ensure a functional society. Now that they are coming off, things are heading in a shitty direction.

Of course, I have no doubt that all of this will balance once the neoreactionary/manosphere movements gain momentum.

And once again, saying "Bitch, get back into the kitchen." will be a phrase of love and acceptance.

[–]panickedperson[S] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]OlBastardRP|She said she was 18.2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Just so there isn't a misunderstanding, societal controls aren't strictly confined to legal measures.

We are still all confined in various ways. Women get slut shamed, men get creep shamed, etc...

It is detrimental to society when guys impregnate multiple women and can't/don't support their children. We do have child support laws, but often, neither the man nor the woman can afford to fully support his children and the state has to take over. Perhaps sterilization can be an option in extreme cases.

Plan B and various types of abortion do exist, and steps can be taken to ensure no fetus comes to fruition.

Would you advocate sterilizing men who spread their seed without supporting it for the benefit of society?

Or would you only advocate to keep women in the home and not sleeping around?

Why not sterilize the women? One way or another, sterilization is an extreme measure. It is much more humane to modify culture and keep the women and men equally responsible for their misdemeanors.

When it comes to dissecting the AFBB strategy of women, you can see that it's a matter of their agency and not of the man's. Some men get used as AF, and the others as BB. Thusly, on a social level, the focus should be on changing women's behavior, and not men's.

[–]panickedperson[S] 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

"Why not sterilize the women?"

That was one of the options I gave. Personally, I believe anyone (male or female) who has children they cannot afford should be sterilized. I realize that this is an extreme view, though, so will never happen.

The point of sterilization is because some women refuse to use Plan B and abortion, and some states refuse to allow women to use these options or make it impossible for the women who need them most (poor women) to afford them.

"Some men get used as AF, and the others as BB. Thusly, on a social level, the focus should be on changing women's behavior, and not men's."

Some women get used as plates, others as wives/LTRs.

It is men's desire for sex that really drives mating culture, not just in the US but all over the world. Men make most of the effort in pursuing women. If men suddenly stopped desiring sex and stopped pursuing women, then women would be unable to do AFBB or whatever mating strategy they wanted to.

So it may be easier to adjust men's behavior than women's. Or, rather, adjust women's behavior BY adjusting men's behavior.

If men were less "thirsty" and pursued women less often and less vigorously, then the entire dating/mating dynamic would change.

Restricting women from sleeping around without restricting men's high sex drive would just result in mass amounts of sexually frustrated men with no outlet. And we all know what that causes, violence.

The western world would become as violent as the Middle East, where women are restricted and men are given no sexual outlet as a direct result.

If there were as many 'sluts' in the MidEast as in the western world, there would be no ISIS. Many of the men who joined ISIS joined solely or partly because they wanted to use violence to release the frustration of not having sex, and to get sex slaves and rape conquered women.

Restricting women's sexual can be disastrous to society and the Middle East is an example of that. An example currently spilling over into Europe.

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Never met a girl genuinely attracted to nerdy guys? Hi, nice to meet you, I'm Panickedperson :)

My first crush on a nerdy guy was in middle school. He was bullied, just like I was. He composed classical music and played piano. I was 'in love' (as much as a 12-14 year old can be) with him for 2 years, though he 'friendzoned' me (note, the friendzone isn't real).

Then in high school I crushed on multiple nerdy guys; math nerds, history nerds, debate team nerds, science nerds, etc. They all ignored me and wanted the cheerleaders (who, of course, ignored them in favor of sports players).

Sure, I'm still bitter about it, but I can't help my attraction to nerdy guys. Intelligence is the sexiest thing to me.

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not saying I'm not hypergamous because I like nerdy guys. Quite the opposite, actually. To me, nerdy guys represent intelligence and intelligence is the most valuable trait in a human being, to me at least.

So nerdy guys who aren't actually smart aren't attractive to me. Only the legitimately smart guys who are also nerds are attractive to me. Smart guys who aren't nerds are fine, too, but those seem to be rare.

High intelligence is a kind of status, so it is very reasonable that girls will be genuinely attracted to men of high intelligence. I know for a fact I'm not the only girl who is.

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