The difference between RP and BP.

Archwinger · 2016-03-10T21:05:47+00:00

Since The Red Pill is primarily about sexual strategy (e.g., relationships and getting laid), and is really only about life-in-general as a side effect, I try to frame this difference from a relationship-based prospective:

The Red Pill doesn't believe in love. The Blue Pill does.

Blue Pill people believe that love is its own special thing. Almost completely separate from looks, sex, personality, common interests, respect, or any of that. For example, a blue piller might tell you that even if a relationship is completely non-sexual, you can still love someone with all your heart and have a strong relationship. A blue piller might tell you that even if somebody doesn't respect you and treats you badly, you might still love him - you just can't help yourself.

Blue pillers think that TRP's intense focus on sex is shallow and stupid, and that the foundation of a strong relationship should be love -- if the love is there, nothing else matters -- everything else will come.

Red pillers think that love is just the name we give to that swimmy-butterlifes feeling we get when we feel lust or excitement over someone new. Or that love is something we say we're in when we have a relationship filled with sex and respect. A strong relationship has a foundation of respect, fidelity, and sex. Love is not its own separate pillar of the relationship -- it's what we call it, as shorthand, if fidelity, respect, and sex are all present and strong. If she doesn't respect you, if she doesn't fuck you, or if she's fucking someone else, then she doesn't love you. If she respects the hell out of you, fucks you regularly, and doesn't cheat, then we can shorthand that as "love".

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-03-10T19:55:55+00:00

Realists vs idealists is a good way of framing it. Another good way to look at it is through the lens of Thomas Sowells "conflict of visions", in which rp would have a constrained vision of human nature and bp unconstrained

circlhat · 2016-03-10T20:16:09+00:00

I don't this gets to it at all.

RP is "pragmatic" because the existing social and legal system is designed in such a way that it protects women from the consequences of idealism, whereas men are punished for it, e.g. if both believe that love conquers all, gets married, etc, and something goes wrong in the marriage, the woman can take away his children, his home, his wealth, and make him an alimony serf for the rest of his life.

Back in the 19th century, when husbands could beat their wives, marital rape was legal, husband got custody, etc etc, there were feminists who were the equivalent of MGOTW today, who thought that the existing system was too unfair and unacceptable. Men were the ones who were idealistic. Women were the ones who asked for prenups, since men, by default, got control of everything. In the 19th century, bloopers were the cynical ones, who thought that the government needed to intrude into marriage to protect women, etc. Now that the tables on turned, it's men who should risk everything for love.

http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/felton/felton.html

Thousands of slaves and lands belonging to ante-bellum women were sold for the husband's security debts. Sometimes her first information was received when the sheriff came to dispossess her. Sometimes a marriage contract was required by anxious parents, but the woman was made to suffer for it. I knew a young woman who declined a marriage contract, because her fiance told her it would be a reflection on himself and it would "break his heart" to be thus distrusted. Nevertheless he proved himself faithless - in mind, morals and her estate.

And the thing about idealism is totally garbage: BP encourages women to lie about their n-count, it bashes men who want the truth, says they should care or shouldn't ask, etc.

One man's idealism is another man's anarchy. I think men should be entrusted with the right to enforce conjugal rights, and that they're trustworthy enough to not abuse that privilege, just like you think women should have be entrusted with the right to be economically independent and choose their mates without parental/communal social pressure, etc. You're uber-pragmatic about the danger of men having too much power.

RP is "pragmatic" because the status quo society is utterly cynical about the nature of men - we get anti-male propaganda 24/7 - that it has utterly obliterated any idealism about men, so RP is forced to fight fire with fire. But it itself, it's not more "pragmatic" than BP. BP is utterly "pragmatic" about men, 24/7.

hedonism_bot_69 · 2016-03-10T20:30:52+00:00

or have a large body of scientific support

Come on now, the red pill has way more scientific support to at least point in their general direction if not actually back it up. Especially things like animal models and clinical research.

Speaking about animal models, this is in my opinion the biggest divide between blue and red. TRP's know humans are animals like any other and react to certain things and in certain ways. That is the core of TRP, that there exists biological archetypes of attraction in the human brain. What red pill fears most is losing control. That's why they organize data (even if it doesnt always fit) and make it law (to give some semblance of order and control). Hence AWALT. Unfortunately real life doesnt work like that.

Blue pillers tend to believe every human is so complex you can never generalize human nature and that the existence of outliers is enough to disprove any attempt at organisation. What blue pillers fear most is being controlled. They are afraid of their animal nature. "Is it possible that me as a woman am attracted to a dominant man?" Or "is it possible that me as a man have to compete with other men or end up alone or have to settle?". Then they quickly think of specific examples in their life to bring them comfort "no, no, this one time I remember I found a nerdy with glasses attractive" and totally ignoring the general trend in their lives.

Red pillers acknowledge animal nature and attempt to control it. Which they cannot.

Blue pillers deny animal nature and attempt to run away from it. Which they cannot.

Then there are people who see life for what it really is. Meaningless, random existence in a world of grays. Anyways, have a great day.

OlBastard · 2016-03-10T20:02:02+00:00

They care about what works. They don't care as much if their beliefs are moral, hurt people's feelings

Everyone is a moral individual from their own perspective.

have a large body of scientific support

Though they act in accordance with things that have actual scientific support, as opposed to bloops' aimless emotions.

The scientific is incorporated into the pragmatic.

they don't care to discuss AMALT

The very premise of TRP is AMALT. Men want x, y, and z. And TRP helps them get those things.

BPillers, focus on ideals

Idealism is a childish endeavor, and for those who live inside of their own heads as opposed to reality.

BPillers don't like things like dread game, because in a morally ideal relationship, there would be no dishonesty or game playing

Yes, this is their ideal, some unrealistic Disney fantasy that somehow settled in their mind as how things should be instead of how things are.

TRP is more focused on hard truths, even if they feel nasty and bad at first. After these truths are realized, things tend to work out well from then on.

sleeping_willow_ · 2016-03-10T20:04:21+00:00

I think you're off to a good start, but I suspect its much more complicated than even this.

I identify as RP partly because I tend to have a negative outlook on "people" in general, or at least have a "glass half empty" PoV with them. Put another way, I don't have much faith in humanity to be good and moral without being forced into it one way or another. Why does that make me RP? Well, RP tends to focus on the absolute worst behavior in women, and to me that represents the bottom of the barrel. Of course I'm not looking for a woman that exhibits those behaviors for a long term prospect, so for me it becomes the baseline for comparison. How does the woman I'm talking to right now "stack up" against AWALT?

Now that being said, I also still pretty much live by the moral framework I grew up with as a Catholic. I don't practice, but "do unto others" really seems like a good metric to me for how I should treat others. Obviously that means some of the advice given in the 'sphere is off limits for me, because it goes against my personal moral code. However, as you pointed out, I tend to approach this from a pragmatic standpoint first, and THEN figure out how to apply my morality to it, if that makes sense. In other words: give me all the info, the worst and the best, and let ME figure out how to use it for myself. Don't go putting morality in there, because I want to make that choice for myself.

The rub there being my lack of faith in humanity. Ideally every man that finds the RP should digest it all without taking in too much of the useless hate, and come to their own conclusions about how to act with it. However, since "people" are generally lazy, I suspect that many and maybe even most simply read and perform, without actually putting thought into if they even want to go that route.

When I first found the 'sphere I really saw all this in black and white. The longer I chew on it, the more I realize there is very little black and white, and a whole lot of gray between them.

HelenBeck · 2016-03-10T20:30:26+00:00

What is BluePill? is there a set of guidelines published somewhere, or is it literally just "anti red pill"

or is it just a sub that makes fun of the red pill folks

if its just a satire sub, then this question has no merit.

if it is a set of ideas or guidelines or principles, where is it published?

and if it is just "anything that RP says is wrong" then there is no way the blue pill can have a care about data or studies, because if those studies "prove" Red pill they must be wrong.

DrunkGirl69 · 2016-03-10T21:51:44+00:00

I think I am more in the camp of your logical idealists. I don't really care about the moral aspects of TRP, just the accuracy of it.

I have red pill friends who say that I take TRP too literally but I guess I just interpret information how I read it. If you are going to say "all women are like that," I am going to think that is what you mean and what you believe, and I will argue against that. If you think bloops take things too literally, more likely the problem is that you are speaking literally, and apparently don't mean what you say.

Also I don't like when red pillers say that blue pillers agree with TRP when you put it nicely. Whenever they "put it nicely," they give totally generic advice like work out and respect yourself. They don't get to have a patent on common sense like that.

Or like, "oh you admit women like taller men?!?! TRP proved!" Men on average are taller than women...if we assortatively mated, women would all end up with men taller than them. Idk, there's just a lot of common sense that they like to claim as their own when you concede it, and then try to act dumb like "why don't people like TRP??" Obviously there's a lot more to it than the stuff we all already know.

alreadyredschool · 2016-03-10T20:22:18+00:00

Rational egoism vs toxic idealism

I am not wondering why one side is winning.

On a side note: People always get this wrong, the order goes like this:

Rational egoism > rational idealism > toxic egoism > toxic idealism

Zunistardust · 2016-03-10T22:26:54+00:00

BluePill is not an ideology. It's simply a term used to refer to anyone who thinks RedPill belief is 100% crap.

SteelChicken · 2016-03-10T21:18:49+00:00

More purple than anything, but this is a very good summary of the different view points.

damaskrose · 2016-03-10T21:25:45+00:00

I consider myself a pragmatist. I'm sure RP does work for some people. But it's far from being the only strategy that works. My life - and thousands of other people's lives and relationships - are proof enough of that.

[deleted] · 2016-03-10T21:45:12+00:00

I think the only thing that makes me "red" is that I'm not interested in dating promiscuous women, social media queens, etc.. I prefer women who only do monogamous relationships and don't sleep around with every tom, dick, and harry in town.

I'm sick of all of these regressive idiots telling me that I'm wrong. That some chick who posts pictures of herself in her underwear on the internet all day and shlicks on camera to pay her rent is A-OK (stop slutshaming!).. These girls are usually really damaged and have some psychological disorders, come from broken homes, and live an underprivileged life.. This shit isn't "empowerment" at all and encouraging women to act this way will actually damage the average woman. It's like encouraging a more sensitive softer guy to join the army and he comes back with all sorts of fucked up PTSD when some other guys don't. Also implanting that idea of "nothing wrong with that!" about a woman's promiscuity into a lot of young mens minds (who are going to wind up getting manipulated) isn't good.. When I say "promiscuity" I mean girls who REALLY sleep around and do the whole CC thing.. Not women who have sex with their boyfriend.

I am also red in the sense that I'm sick of all of the bullshit media trying to tell guys that masculinity and your sexual energy is wrong. These fucking idiots who say shit like "You should compliment a woman's intelligence before her beauty!" Fuck off, I'll give a girl a compliment if I feel like it. If she's gonna get offended by it, she's the one with the issues not me.

Or how about these tumblrinas who bitch about the sexual objectification of women all day long then go post pictures of themselves half naked for their legions of e-orbiters? "Empowerment?" Bull-fucking-shit. She wants attention. Plain and simple.

Also, a particular cherry to pick for me.. Female artists. Most of them are feminists to a T and challenge the objectification of women.. Yet most of the artwork they create portrays women in a sexually objectified manner or some other identity obsessed context.

I guess I'm just sick of the bullshit war of the sexes politics in general. Most level headed women aren't concerned with any of this garbage and it tends to attract only the crazies for the most part.

connor1003 · 2016-03-11T05:43:53+00:00

Red Pillers believe that gender/sex is biologically - not socially - constructed, and that there are generalizations one can make about men and women that are both factually true and useful in implementing an optimal sexual strategy. They base these generalizations on evolutionary psychology. For example, "women evolved to be socially manipulative because it gave them the best chance of surviving and reproducing in a harsh natural environment."

Thus, if you are unaware of these generalizations or do not apply them in your life, a red piller would consider you to behind the times or ignorant of the truth. Red pillers would consider you a 'chump'.

Blue pillers believe that gender is socially - not biologically - constructed. They believe that generalizations about gender/sex are necessarily untrue or useless for one reason or another. They consider evolutionary psychology a pseudoscience and therefore reject any generalization based on evolutionary psychology. As a result, they view sexual strategy as a pointless endeavor - they don't see how one can strategize when individual preferences vary so wildly.

Thus, if you adopt or implement these generalizations in your life, a blue piller would consider you to be marginalizing people - prematurely judging them without sufficient justification. Blue pillers would consider you a 'bigot'.

This is the core of the pillsphere discourse.

sleeping_willow_ · 2016-03-10T21:39:41+00:00

The difference from my point of view is that TRP is a sexual strategy sub that sees their way as the 'right way'. I haven't seen many studies that have impressed me that support them, and I wish people would stop quoting/referencing the flawed OKC study. I see quite a few them as often taking words and statements too literally 'just be yourself' etc. which is a platitude rather than actual dating advice for the most part. Bits of the strategy are solid such as get fit and be confident, which is pretty generic and I'd argue that these are why it 'works'.

BPers are 'not RP' their beliefs are very varied and a lot of the ones on PPD never/rarely visit TBP sub. I wouldn't consider most BPers idealists, it's a very mixed bunch. BP tends to be more idiographic than TRP. Human behaviour can be generalised more than some are willing to admit, but I see TRP generalisations as inaccurate at best.

DrunkGirl69 · 2016-03-11T05:30:54+00:00

I would also like to say I'm a cynical blue piller who doesn't believe in true love or marriage for anybody so this idea that we're a bunch of cotton-headed ninnies with our heads in the clouds who always had perfect relationships isn't accurate either. I can easily see the worst in people, men and women alike. I just think TRP is wrong about a number of things. It's that simple.

voteGOPk · 2016-03-11T01:07:52+00:00

good post,

but basically, in other words, everyone is "purple pill" in real life (over age 25, when most people have some experience with life).

These internet message board threaks and personas don't exist in real life.

I have never met the caricature strawman Blue piller or red piller in real life.

r410q · 2016-03-12T10:44:24+00:00

I think everyone, BP and RP, are interested in what works. No one wants to be doing something in a futile manner.

The difference between BP and RP is only opinion on what does work. BP and RP generally have different experiences; RP-ers come from backgrounds where their love life was pretty rough or non-existent. As such, their approach tends to be more cynical, and they tend to harbor a larger need for validation which draws them to places where their beliefs or opinions are justified and validated.

That's why they have a lower need for scientific proof. Science is science, if science implies something doesn't work or isn't that way then it's not going to work, and it isn't that way. It's not a matter of opinion. RP-ers continue to treat it as opinion because their beliefs serve a larger purpose than just results, such as coping through their rough times and protecting the ego.

wtknight · 2016-03-10T21:00:04+00:00

The Blue Pill runs on sociological tropes. Not every Blue Piller agrees about every trope. "Be yourself." is a trope. "The goal of every person should be to find love." is a trope. "You should respect your partner as an equal." is a trope. "Make sure that you and your partner enjoy sex equally." is another.

The Red Pill rejects all tropes and tries to distill all interactions between the genders to biological animal responses. "Women want alphas because they produce the best offspring." "Women try to perform a dualistic mating strategy with a beta to procure resources for their offspring if necessary." "Men want to spread their genes to as many women as possible." These and many other statements are not tropes but based upon biological scientific principles.

The problems with TRP's approach is that it destroys all emotions. Humans are much more complicated than typical animals because of our emotions. TRPers claim they are happy with their shallow sexual existence, but I really don't think they are as happy as the Blue Pillers who are in successful relationships and who stick to believing in their tropes. Sure, you might get burned once or twice in life if you believe in Blue Pill fantasies, but if you abandon them to become a nihilistic, self-centered sexual animal, then you are missing out on a lot of happiness that others in life are finding when it comes to relationships.

haikufun · 2016-03-10T19:57:56+00:00

I'm still trying to digest TRP and I'm stuck on how they believe men are the unconditional romantics and women only love conditionally (and somehow that is an erroneous philosophy). So I have no coherent summary of the differences for you. Well, also, it would be difficult to ~~some~~ sum up with a comprehensive BP primer in that BP is just a rejection of TRP.

AutoModerator · 2016-03-10T19:47:53+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

redmachines · 2016-03-12T02:42:31+00:00

All BPs are religious. They want life to be held in the hands of "higher powers"; things out of their control. They do not want you to take an active role in solving your own problems through the scientific method.

Title	The difference between RP and BP.
Author	sleeping_willow_
Upvotes	13
Comments	159
Date	March 10, 2016 7:47 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/49v40z/the_difference_between_rp_and_bp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-difference-between-rp-and-bp.275748 https://theredarchive.com/post/275748

Comments