There is no debate anymore | PurplePillDebate

2014-08-01T02:58:37+00:00

Looks like the red pill people have intellectually destroyed the blue pillers to the point where there is nothing to debate anymore, except for things even trp...

[–]fchsBlue Pill Man26 points27 points28 points 12 years ago (136 children) | Copy Link

[–]aintdonegotno6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]fchsBlue Pill Man5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I've had plenty of successes with women and plenty of failures as well, as I'm sure most other men here have.

Currently, I'm beta as fuck and loving it. I have a steady girlfriend that I love and who loves me, she's a feminist in college, sex is great, we have a blast spending time together even if we don't have sex, we're honest about everything to each other, I treat her as an equal (aside from chivalrous gestures here and there), and things couldn't be better in our relationship.

I don't try to maintain frame, I act like my clumsy awkward self around her, I don't make an effort to be dominant outside of the bedroom, I don't use PUA techniques like negging and dread game, basically I do everything that TRP says will make my girlfriend cheat on me, but we're both very happy with our relationship and trusting of each other.

I've met girls who were turned off because I'm not super dominant and "alpha", and that's fine. A lot of girls are attracted to TRP types and lot of girls aren't. However it's pretty arrogant to assume that TRP is the only objective truth and anyone ignoring it is a sucker.

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Saying that on average blacks score lower than other ethnicities isn't wrong. It's not even dumb, or hurtful. No one really freaks out over that specific part.

The problem all these "politically correct" people have with that statement is not in its bad taste or that we don't like to acknowledge it. It's the fact that literally the vast majority if not almost all the time, whenever someone does say "well, majority of blacks have a low IQ and the crime of blacks in the U.S. does not compare to blacks in other countries" they're trying to justify racism and pin the effects on the people themselves and willfully ignoring the historical context behind the statistics. People, a good chunk of reddit as well, like to think that there is no systematic racism at all left in our government. Although we are definitely much better off than we were in the 60s, and much better off than the 70s, 80s, and 90s, racism still exists and still heavily affects black Americans.

Slavery didn't bring about "true freedom" just as the Civil Rights movement and the laws enacted did not change the racism you find in the U.S. Serfdom existed for years after slavery was abolished in which people were more or less in the same situations as they were prior to the abolishment of slavery. Although at least afterwards you wouldn't be abused and and at least you could vote. As long as you could escape the grandfather clauses and the voting logic tests. And maybe be wealthy enough to bribe the pollers. Also good luck moving into white neighborhoods until just recently, lol. "Stay in your ghettos, black people". Etc, stupid shit like that.

The Civil Rights movement didn't drastically change the US's racism outside of the government-sponsored racism. There are still racist tendencies that plague the police, there were many racist policies involving gerrymandering and gentrification that occurred in the 60s to the present. And don't get me started on the public's view of black people, which is essentially: "there's black people, then there's people who are more white than black, but have dark skin".

I have no problems saying that Latinos have low IQs on average compared to white people or asians. I don't have a problem acknowledging or saying that black people have low IQs on average and are more likely to be in jail.

I have a problem thinking or saying that Latinos and black people are inherently dumb or have low IQs due to their culture, ideologies or whatever, because that willfully ignores all the situations and contexts that these minorities: toxic gentrification, pushing them into ghettos, not having enough good positive role models, systematic racism (tell me what ethnicities cops are more likely to pullover or stop? Now, people who are still defending your view point normally say "well, they do, on average, commit more crime than other groups". I respond with a question: if the only reason cops singled out these minority groups due to said reasons... then what was the first reason to specifically mainly go for them? It's a neverending causal chain that shows the foundation of it is dumb and racist, and people have just been going with it because of its circular logic) and the fact that they're darker in skin color.

Other minority groups definitely have been disadvantaged as well. Irish, Russians, Jews, Germans, Italians. And Asians: Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc. But what's one thing they could all take solace in? The fact that they weren't black people. You see this thought mainly in the disadvantaged caucasian/white people who regularly performed in, and watched and supported minstrelsy and black-face shows. Even though the rest of the people didn't see them as equals, at least "we're not those black people".

And don't even get me started how (although terrible things to undergo) their troubles compare to what black people underwent in the US. Yes, the Japanese were put into internment camps on the west coast. Was that based off of race? For some outlying cases (I'm sure there's a few non-Japanese people that were thrown in the lot) yes, but the main reason for it was because we were at war with Japan and they were a minority. It'd be dumb to do it to the Germans or Italians, but I'm sure if it wasn't for the fact that those two groups weren't (1) white (2) populous minorities compared to the Japanese, the US wouldn't hesitate to throw them in camps during WWI and WWII.

And yes, the Chinese and Irish essentially were slaves for periods of time.

But none of that compares to the state-enforced slavery that lasted ~80 years (counting from the moment the US started), not even counting the slavery of black people in the states that happened before hand. They were essentially slaves/serfs for the next 40-50 years after they were freed. And after they were freed, it took them 100 years to have the same legal rights applied to them as the laws did to the rest. And the pressure to move blacks towards ghettos. And the lack of a drive to push education on black people. Or the fact that people (even black people are guilty of this) would rather tell a young black boy to learn a sport than to focus on school.

If anyone wants to have a shitting or pissing contest with the blacks in regards to who was the most disenfranchised, the blacks win. They have a (sadly) terrible history that spans 200+ years of racism. Some of it worse than other times. Thankfully we've been making progress but there's still a lot of work to do.

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History of the race and intelligence controversy:

The history of the race and intelligence controversy concerns the historical development of a debate, concerning possible explanations of group differences encountered in the study of race and intelligence. Since the beginning of IQ testing around the time of World War I there have been observed differences between average scores of different population groups, but there has been no agreement about whether this is mainly due to environmental and cultural factors, or mainly due to some genetic factor, or even if the dichotomy between environmental and genetic factors is a correct approach to the debate.

Image ⁱ

^Interesting: ^Race ^and ^intelligence ^| ^J. ^Philippe ^Rushton ^| ^The ^Bell ^Curve ^| ^Pioneer ^Fund

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

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I'm confused. You're arguing that you're open minded, but when presented with evidence that the slut/stud double standard is a myth, that society judges men with high partner counts just as negatively as it does women, you turn to what, common sense?, to back your argument. That doesn't strike me as being terribly open minded.

As far as the alpha male being a thought experiment, that's not the impression given to me by reading trp, though I could be wrong.

I'm going to stick with my assertion that facts/evidence to the contrary is not enough to change someone's belief. I'm not sure what you mean by "open minded", but to me, I've always thought of it as "being willing to swayed by facts and other opinions". Given that rpers are surrounded by contradicting opinions which they disregard, I've decided to stick with facts, which in the face of their opinions, mean nothing to them.

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heres even some blue pill people talking about the double standard you believe doesn't exist. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/ http://sexualityandu.ca/uploads/files/DoubleStandardfebruary2011.pdf http://www.academia.edu/2967781/Male_and_Female_Sluts_Shifts_and_stabilities_in_the_regulation_of_sexual_relations_among_young_heterosexual_men_2013_

The fact that you think that I'll be immediately convinced by people who share my general views agreeing with you is pretty telling.

It's no more evidence for your proposition than anything else that you've said.

You posting people who you assume that I associate with agreeing with your proposition as evidence that you think would be particularly convincing to me is suggesting that you think that I think that BP's could not possibly be wrong.

To put it another way, it was sarcasm.

I also don't actually think that it doesn't exist. I don't know whether it exists or not.

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This is what "not open to facts" looks like.

but i did reply to it....

here it is:

the article points out: that both men and women characters are looked down upon equally for high sexual partner counts by people who read the stories. i agree i feel men with high partner counts are disgusting, just like women with high partner counts. this study doesn't look at it in the context of relationships though. the method was to show people a story (a vignette) where either a man or a woman was talking about their sexual history and used positive things and negative things to describe their experiences. its an interesting study of confirmation bias, but it does not talk about how each sex feels attraction for the other sex depending on sexual partner count.

S/he gave you scientific evidence, for heaven's sake!

you sound a bit emotional. its alright mate

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Alright, I'll bite.

There was a point in TRP's history where the sub promoted the idea that men should act like an "alpha male" because that's what was considered "natural" from a biological standpoint. Many ill-conceived comparisons to wolf packs were made. (The "alpha wolf" concept turned out to be one of several TRP-endorsed myths.)

Here an actual evolutionary psychologist rips TRP's pseudoscience apart, noting that our closest primate relatives have wildly different hierarchies that could also include an alpha female.

TRP has stopped insisting that men be "alpha" because it's natural from an evolutionary standpoint and now views alpha/beta as simple concepts divorced from any hard science. They've had that change of heart precisely because the rest of the reddit community has consistently schooled and humiliated them on that point repeatedly. You guys have benefited from the knowledge of STEM majors - but you've benefited from their critiques of your ideology, not because they're helping the sub as subscribed contributors. Lol.

TRP has always had a poor, shaky grasp of scientific principles - from their initial theories about the sexes and evolution, to how they gather their self-reported "data." (RPers now admit that their field reports are not scientific at all...it took a while for them to reach that conclusion, but they did thanks to PPD, TBP, and the rest of the reddit community.)

You guys worship science instead of actually understanding or employing it. It's apparent to anyone who's advanced beyond middle school biology. In fact I used to feel rather empowered when I would engage with an RPer only to have them struggle to define how they collate and judge their data. You guys are fools for the rest of the internet to laugh at; always have been, always will be. I don't think men are expendable, but I do believe many of the men attracted to TRP are. Expendable idiots with little to offer in a world shifting toward knowledge-based industries.

As Noam Chomsky once stated

You find that people cooperate, you say, ‘Yeah, that contributes to their genes' perpetuating.’ You find that they fight, you say, ‘Sure, that’s obvious, because it means that their genes perpetuate and not somebody else's. In fact, just about anything you find, you can make up some story for it.

Making up stories and claiming to know actual scientists: that's you guys in a nutshell.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Here an actual evolutionary psychologist

which parts are meant to disprove trp?

As Noam Chomsky once stated

You find that people cooperate, you say, ‘Yeah, that contributes to their genes' perpetuating.’ You find that they fight, you say, ‘Sure, that’s obvious, because it means that their genes perpetuate and not somebody else's. In fact, just about anything you find, you can make up some story for it.

"Those who have a professional knowledge of evolutionary biology know that it is not possible to cook up after the fact explanations of just any trait. There are important constraints on evolutionary explanation. More to the point, every decent evolutionary explanation has testable predictions about the design of the trait. For example, the hypothesis that pregnancy sickness is a byproduct of prenatal hormones predicts different patterns of food aversions than the hypothesis that it is an adaptation that evolved to protect the fetus from pathogens and plant toxins in food at the point in embryogenesis when the fetus is most vulnerable – during the first trimester. Evolutionary hypotheses – whether generated to discover a new trait or to explain one that is already known – carry predictions about the nature of that trait. The alternative – having no hypothesis about adaptive function – carries no predictions whatsoever. So which is the more constrained and sober scientific approach?" - Leda Cosmisides

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

which parts are meant to disprove trp?

It's not the first comment in the thread. The comment is written by Canislupaster and is farther down, highlighted, and gilded. Canislupaster also has a degree in evolutionary biology and is not an evolutionary psychologist as I stated earlier.

So that lengthy quote you gave me could just be boiled down to "hypotheses are better than no hypotheses."

The alternative – having no hypothesis about adaptive function – carries no predictions whatsoever. So which is the more constrained and sober scientific approach?"

So let me ask you and Leda this: what's the point of creating a hypothesis if you can't fucking test it? If you can't TEST a hypothesis, then you're not following the scientific theory! It's unfalsifiable! Although judging by the rest of this thread, you have some difficulty grasping the concept of falsifiability.

I think I'll refer to Canislupaster's last statement to finish my rebuttal:

Lastly, I'll say this: humans and their ancestors have certainly been shaped by natural and sexual selection. Determining how those forces have acted, however, is a difficult matter. To scientifically support the redpiller worldview, you'd have to tease apart which psychological traits are inherently biological and which are influenced by culture (this is extremely difficult to do). Even if you were able to determine that a psychological tendency is due to our biology, you then have to deal with the naturalistic fallacy (i.e.: that something is right/wrong because it is natural/unnatural).

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i have studied evolutionary biology at university aswell.

Yes, but he got a degree in it.

that guy is not an authority, so stop appealing to it.

I was appealing to his argument, not his title. I only mentioned his education to correct a mistake I had made in my previous comment. His comment illustrates the reasoning an actual STEM major employs to pull TRP's theories inside-out. You'd know that if you had read it.

you can test it. heres the same argument i had with someone else

I looked at your sources. Kin selection and mate choice were discovered by biologists, not evolutionary psychologists. You just included those things because they're related to evopsych's "field" of "expertise." Why don't you find an actual evolutionary psychologist who proposed a hypothesis, tested it, and then scientifically validated it instead of piggybacking on the work of actual scientists?

And when you do find that source, how about you embed it in a series of sentences like the intelligent life form you claim to be? Because you wanted a debate, buddy, and a "debate" means using words to craft paragraphs that convey your thought processes like an educated individual. Don't throw a bunch of random, five-second-searched links at me and think you can hide behind the resulting confusion. I'm not gonna dig through your sources for you in order to invalidate your argument like some chump. Use your words and make a fucking effort to build a legitimate argument or don't poke the sleeping BP tiger.

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I've seen them cite studies in TRP (not that many time vs. other posts) but certainly in the wider man-o-sphere (I think there is a link to a RP blog from OP comments on how top men get majority of sex).

I'm partially abandoning the argument that they (they being TRP) cite studies since I can't be assed to provide specific links to them in TRP. Yes, yes it's bad debating form but I'm just not that invested in this argument nor have the time to go digging. Here is my lazy way out: http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/search?q=study&restrict_sr=on

Here is an article on a study from PPD from a couple of days ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?scp=1&sq=&st=nyt&pagewanted=all&_r=1&

And lets not forget this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4790313.stm

So it's not like there isn't some scientific proof for what they are saying.

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Let me break this down:

Say I start a philosophy called "I'm-right-ism" the people I disgaree with I label "not-clever-ists".

I start a thread bragging that "I'm right-ism" is intellectually dominating its opponents.

Some people protest at this, however little do they know:

so if you have proven something against what currently I'm-right-ism is, that idea becomes right-ism, you have not beaten right-ism, you have helped it.

I've defined I'm-right-ism as something impossible to refute.

my apologies, i meant science in general, is science unfalsifiable even though it changes and trys to be correct?

That still makes no sense, "science" is a method, not a claim in itself. Thats thats like asking if math is mathematical.

and im not saying trp is as much as authority as any science, theres very little research into these things because its politcally incorrect.

Research into what things? Theres tonnes of research into human psychology. TRPs "Science" is just a grab bag of things people pluck from the headlines of psychology today that fits a certain narrative, which suggests that someones writing that stuff without censorship. Every freaking week mainstream tabloids run a "Men like this women like this" story, that stuff sells papers.

The whole "we would have more evidence if it wasn't being SUPPRESSED" thing is another one of those classic psuedoscience memes in any case.

[–][deleted]-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the semantics in here are killing me.

That still makes no sense, "science" is a method, not a claim in itself.

ok, pick an area of a science. Viral entry into cells for example is a claim in itself, people study viral entry into cells, as people have gained understanding of it the ideas have changed, new evidence was discovered, the ideas changed again. do you think that the study of viral entry into cells is unfalsifiable?

I've defined I'm-right-ism as something impossible to refute.

trp is a bunch of ideas. those ideas are falsifiable. therefore trp is falsifiable. your getting stuck on how i said that whatever is right will become rp.

Research into what things? Theres tonnes of research into human psychology.

research into attraction between the sexes, if you find me some that isn't just females are attracted to masculine features, ill be stoked. most psychology research is about personality and mental illnesses.

The whole "we would have more evidence if it wasn't being SUPPRESSED" thing is another one of those classic psuedoscience memes.

lol

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ok, pick an area of a science. Viral entry into cells for example is a claim in itself, people study viral entry into cells, as people have gained understanding of it the ideas have changed, new evidence was discovered, the ideas changed again. do you think that the study of viral entry into cells is unfalsifiable?

Studying viral entry into cells starts with a specific claim (viruses can enter into cells) that is falsifiable, if this is disproven, the whole thing falls apart. And critically, a good scientist will try very hard to disprove it.

How might one go about falsifying, for instance, that "women are the most responsible teenager in the house"?

trp is a bunch of ideas. those ideas are falsifiable. therefore trp is falsifiable.

"A bunch of ideas" is a not a testible hypothesis (since you could verify/refute one and it would have no bearing on the others)

For example, I might have "a bunch of ideas" that I am being spied on by the government in various ways.

It might be possible to refute that the idea the car outside my house is bugged.

However this would not refute the theory. I can just dredge up new ideas of where cameras might be.

your getting stuck on how i said that whatever is right will become rp.

Because thats so obviously circular it hurts.

research into attraction between the sexes, if you find me some that isn't just females are attracted to masculine features, ill be stoked. most psychology research is about personality and mental illnesses.

Most redpillers (the ones that actually do make a pretence towards science) I've seen get their information from things like The Red Queen which was a bestselling book (shortlisted for a bunch of mainstream awards) Lately everyone has been blowing up about Daniel Bergners What do Women Want (another mainstream hit) which catalogs research by sexologists and psychologists about female desire.

Beyond that there are about a billion papers that get published with dry titles like: "The sociobiology of sexual and reproductive strategies. London: Chapman and Hall."

Point is, theres no PC conspiracy to keep "research on attraction" under wraps. Its exciting to the think there would be because it lets guys imagine they're underground Neos harbouring forbidden knowledge from the Matrix but sorry.

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No, my experience tells me that TRP is not true for the vast majority of people. I'm probably old enough to be your mother and I could use TRP to describe a very small fraction of the people I know. I know exactly one woman who still wants to get married at 36, the others already are or have given up on dating entirely, usually after a divorce, on the grounds that being married isn't worth what it entails.

On the other hand, I could fill a small novel with the stories I know which contradict them. One of the groomsmen at our wedding is a very good looking man, my Mum still refers to him as 'the good looking groomsman'. He was a nice, polite man with only two partners, same as her. When we got engaged, he was with his girlfriend of two years and was starting to drop hints about them being next. By the time we were married it was awkward because his ex was my bridesmaid and they had broken up. He had left her for an entrirely average looking woman who was eight years older than him (33 to his 25) who left her husband to be with him. They are still happily married to this day.

Explain this to me in TRP terms.

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strawman. you see some angry posters and think thats what the consensus is.

Why would a women with self respect want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks she is less than a man? Who thinks he should be the boss because of his genitals?

because shes attracted to him i guess but I dont believe women are inferior, there are many retarded women and men. are you imply the red pill think women are inferior? read the edorsed contributors, i think nearly all of them are in relationships with women they love.

Red pillers by definition are those who failed at normal relationships

no.

I don't see how artificially inflating the ego of such a person

no, i think if anything trp shuts men down and blames them for their own failures. they don't blame the women, they blame the men for not being attractive enough.

ignore the desires of their partner

lol no. can you show me where you got that from?

EDIT: do you have any trp theory you think would be toxic to a ltr? or is it just the angry, misogynist tone of some posters you disagree with?

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oh jeeze, I should have realized I'm dealing with a narcissist.

u/cheerma posts to u/ofspock

once again, do you have any examples of how trp would be toxic to a ltr?

you feel the need to respond with:

once again, do you have any examples of how trp would be toxic to a ltr? Have you ever been in a LTR to understand the examples?

Which is a dodge of the question and a personal attack on u/Cheerma. u/Cheerma then asks

do you have any posts that arn't personal attacks at me?

to which you respond

That's not a personal attack. Way to dodge the question. I'll take that as a no.

I don't care what you think it was, it was an ironic dodge and personal attack on OP. There's always the PM function, come on harshly criticize me man, don't pretend there's something stopping you, well, other than you're own idiocy.

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There was never a debate because the Blue Pillers do not argue with Red Pill the theory, but instead with The Red Pill the Subreddit.

RedPill as a theory has a lot less objectionable than the subreddit itself, I find, because the people who contextualize the theory often do it in blatantly wrong and offensive ways while the theory is just simple e-psych and sociobiology coupled with some seduction stuff. The theory itself has issues, but stirs up less emotion, so people are less likely to address the drier aspects of refuting the theory which takes a lot more research and knowledge, like dismantling the validity of e-psych in general, pointing to cultural differences that refute aspects of RP, citing techniques therapists uses to keep couples together that actively advise against certain LTR game, etc. And even then the most you can say is that TRP is not the only or even close to the ultimate way of going about relationships, only one way that works for some people, but not all people. And where's the fun in that? Those topics would all take paragraphs to expand upon for little emotional payout anyway.

But pointing out that a ton of comments from RP are misogynistic and that a lot of endorsed contributors are batshit insane? Easy and lower effort.

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what would trp gain from posting "but men do this too though" every time they talk about a hamster? how would that give them a better understanding of what women are attracted to?

That's not the point. I am not saying they have to say that every time they talk about it. The whole point of the post I replied to is to talk about the theory not the subreddit. Following me? So that's what I'm doing. I'm not talking about what individuals say, I'm talking about what the theory says. And the theory says only women hamster. So if the theory is so great and only the subreddit is bad I would like this statement justified.

besides i disagree that trp thinks only women hamster.

Who cares? What you think is irrelevant. I'm talking about, objectively, what the theory says, not how the people in the subreddit act.

you don't have any arguments above "its wrong because it is!" so theres no point speaking to you.

You've yet to give me reason to believe it's correct. In fact actual science says women mature faster than men. So there you go, I have provided an actual source, a Time article on a peer reviewed study. Now run along and find me a proper source for the red pill claim that women don't mature past their teen years. I'm waiting.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

And the theory says only women hamster. So if the theory is so great and only the subreddit is bad I would like this statement justified.

no, the red pill theory doesn't state it is only women. please provide where you read that.

you can even read in the blue pill examples sometimes people commenting about the hamster of the blue pill man in the examples.

actual science says women mature faster than men.

the article you're mad at doesn't disagree with you. im not sure how you think that refutes the article.

edit: i don't even care about that article, it doesn't really add much to understanding what women are attracted to.

edit2: haha i just read the most mature teenager in the house article and it actually states the same thing you posted, that women mature faster. stop agreeing with trp articles.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

no, the red pill theory doesn't state it is only women. please provide where you read that.

Rationalization Hamster - The tendency for women to use rationalization to resolve mental conflict and avoid cognitive dissonance. The core mechanism that allows women to say one thing and do a different thing.

you can even read in the blue pill examples sometimes people commenting about the hamster of the blue pill man in the examples.

This is the last time I'm going to repeat this to you, because I think you are just trolling at this point - I am talking about the theory, not what individuals in the subreddit say.

the article you're mad at doesn't disagree with you. im not sure how you think that refutes the article.

Soooo you're not gonna provide me with actual sources to back up your claims then? Figures.

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this is hilarious. i swear im not trolling.

definition from glossary

this definition is written to trp audience, the theory we're there to talk about is only about women, which is why it doesnt state that men do it, since theres no point. every trp person knows men also rationalise emotions. you are wrong.

Soooo you're not gonna provide me with actual sources to back up your claims then? Figures.

lol. the burden of proof is on you. we're arguing about the teenager article, trp has provided that article, and you have not provided any evidence to counter it. im not here to explain it to you, apparently you disagree with it but you refuse to give evidence. i don't even care though, the article is not important to trp, its just a sticky point for tbp because it offends you. you give evidence against the article and ill probably just believe you.

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But that's not what TRP theory says. Some individual red pillers might have said it but nowhere in the blogs or the dictionaries on the subreddit does it say "men do this too", it only talks about women doing it.

They talk abut men but not in a direct way. It's part of many of their theories but pretty much only when they are providing men with mental frameworks to counter the bro hamster.

Isn't "don't get oneitis" telling guys not to hamster the uniqueness of women they like? EDIT: An acknowledging that men hamster.
Isn't "lift bro" telling guys not to hamster the importance of a great physique? EDIT: An acknowledging that men hamster
How about "look at the red flags"? Isn't that simply telling guy not to rationalise obvious sources of trouble? EDIT: An acknowledging that men hamster
Or isn't "women don't love unconditionally" (I have some misgivings on interpretation of that one) reminding guys that they can't become apathetic cookie dough when dealing with women romantically? EDIT: An acknowledging that men hamster

Well it's just not true. [on treat women like teenagers]

Women are generally treated as teenagers in society. Heck women themselves like to absolve themselves from agency and responsibility. TRP just talks about it (some times idiotically but hey nobodies perfect).

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[–]steelpuppy0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

Again though you are talking about your own interpretation whereas I'm just looking at what the theory actually says. I definitely agree men "hamster" too but the theory doesn't say that, it's just some red pillers choose to believe that and read that interpretation into the theory.

Where does the theory say that it's exclusive to women? RP is sexual strategy for men in getting with women. Your argument sound like the ever present "but what about the menz".

It's not like theory isn't subject to change and interpretation.

Woah now, I definitely need a source on that one. This may have been true in the past but not at all now, isn't that the very basis of TRP in the first place, that feminism has ruined how we think of women? I know that in TRP's dream world we would treat women like teenagers but I don't think that transitions to reality.

Really? You're a mod at TiA. You really can't think of examples from there?

How about a drunk boy and a drunk girl have sex but the boy is the rapist and the girl is the victim?

Or even better girl sextes a boy and the boy sextes a girl but only the boy gets charged with possession of child pornography?

Or how about this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13666066

Or how about that women get lesser sentences (63% less) than men? How is that not treating women as teenagers, diminishing their agency and responsibility ? Adults get harsher sentences than teenagers so I see no reason why that analogy shouldn't be made.

EDIT:

This may have been true in the past but not at all now

I think that it's been more pronounced before but it isn't completely extinguished from modern society. I'm not saying that women are literally teenagers but there are plenty of instance were society does not treat them as harshly as men when there isn't any reason not to.

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[–]steelpuppy0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

It says it's something women do, nowhere does it say any different. If I said "women can't drive" someone could later say "but EFS meant men can't drive either, he was saying no one can drive" but that doesn't change the fact that my original statement was exclusive to women.

tl;dr But what about the menz.

Bitch I created TiA.

What I life achievement that is. Now remove the bitch part. Personal insults aren't welcome or allowed.

Sure that place is full of extremists but I realise they're just that - extremists. They don't make up the majority or even a significant minority of actual women. Just like how terrorists are a tiny minority of extremists compared to the majority of peaceful muslims.

Extremists move the discourse toward their side. Because now those edging moderates or one-foot-in-the-extremists-camp people look more sane. Or are you forgetting the whole Cali bill proposal (or did they vote it in) with the affirmative consent bullshit?

Most people don't think drunk sex = rape at all.

Certainly not until somebody reports it. Then the above scenario plays out.

Depends which case you look at.

How exactly does it depend. There are plenty of cases were both the girl and the boy are sexting but only the boy get in trouble. Or pretty much any high school bullshit when girls don't get or barely get a slap on the wrist while the boys get fucked over hard. Stop pretending like there aren't plenty of double standards that extremely favour women.

Some idiots saying stupid stuff doesn't mean women in general are anything in particular.

Those idiots got an article on BBCs site and a government response "The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) welcomed the report and said it was carefully considering the recommendations". It just ties in to the whole double standard shtick.

This I agree with, that shouldn't be the case and needs to be fixed, but again I don't think it reflects society as a whole. If anything it's a relic from the past and the existence of that sort of inequality is why I'm not against sensible MRAs (although I don't count myself as one personally).

So you don't think that a FUNDAMENTAL part of society (the justice system) doesn't reflect on society as a whole? Really? Having the death penalty (or not) doesn't say anything about values of that particular society? Sentencing women to lesser prison time for the same crimes speaks nothing about social values?

There is one general example (the harsher sentences one) and a few cases involving sexting which were unequal but as a whole I don't think you've proven that point. Women have the same rights as men and often have careers just the same as men nowadays.

These were just at the top of my head. There are plenty other, less formal privileges women have.

And I thought that's exactly what TRP was so pissed off about so to hear a red piller dispute that is quite strange.

I'm not a red piller. I just don't dismiss their perspective simply because it makes people queasy.

It's also funny to hear both red pillers and SJWs basically arguing women have no agency, good ol' horseshoe theory.

It's not just SJW but a great deal of society. The justice system is simply the most obvious one.

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[–]steelpuppy1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

See, it's hilarious seeing red pill using the exact same tactics as SJWs. You people are ridiculous.

Woosh. That was me making fun of your argument since you are the one using the "but what about the menz" line of thinking. So since you have a disdain for RPers I guess you are self-proclaimed SJW. Which you make a fun of (being so self-important as the ~~mod~~, sorry founder of TiA).

So you are in fact making fun of yourself. Comedy goal.

BTW I'm still not a red piller but please do continue to ignore that fact.

Bitch please.

I guess when you can't make a decent argument resort to petty insults.

That could apply to either side since both radfems and red pillers are extremists.

Yeah no shit. The difference is that the majority of radfems want to change society but the majority of RPers don't, they just want to use it to their advantage.

Is this the overhyped one where people made it out like you had to sign a contract for sexual consent to exist even though that was never true?

That is the one that aimed to increase the level of expressed consent necessary so that it doesn't become rape. The fact that it was even seriously discussed at the highest legal authority in Cali should tell you something.

What are you even referring to here?

Boys and girls do something against school policy. Boys get detention, girls walk free.

Of course, the BBC must remain impartial, it's taxpayer funded.

The BBC doesn't have a duty to present every single nut jobs point of view either. That's why they have editors.

In other words "we read your report and it was crap." Which is why nothing ever came of it. Of course the government has to give some kind of form letter response.

Ok fair enough.

Absolutely. For example where I live weed is still illegal. Yet virtually everyone I know smokes it anyway and it's very much a part of everyday culture. Likewise, pirating music is illegal, yet even my mum does that. The justice system and society are very different on a number of issues and this is just another example.

Those people still get punished when caught. You are also presenting specific crimes where the system hasn't caught up with parts of the changing social opinion. Weed being illegal is only a very recent change: http://www.gallup.com/poll/165539/first-time-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspx

Those more lenient sentences women get are in the entire justice system. So it does speak to the values the system when women get lesser sentences for the same crimes. You can call it sexism, chivalry, denying women's agency or simply say that society is treating women as teenagers.

P.S. CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

Or for emphasis.

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I'll be the first to admit that in general none of it can be proven but the fact remains there is a lot of 'proof' to support his view.

That's confusing. TRP can't be proven to work but there's proof that it works?

This is how I see it: TRP works with a specific type of woman. I have read what game consists of and I have seen lousy videos of dudes putting that to practice and claiming it works when the girl buys it. What I notice consistently is that it's manipulative, it's used in a specific context with specific people (young women in clubs), and there is no proof it leads to long term meaningful relationships at all.

So okay, if you want to claim your theory works on these women, go ahead and manipulate those women. But you can't just assume any other woman will just fall for it.

And then there is, y'know, the fact that women are inherently inferior according to TRP.

[–]teeeloRed Pill0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

That's confusing. TRP can't be proven to work but there's proof that it works?

There's very very strong beyond a reasonable doubt that it works evidence, but fuck if any asshat will argue its proof. Live life like TRP suggests you should, and watch everything around you magically get better. At that point who needs proof!

This is how I see it: TRP works with a specific type of woman. I have read what game consists of and I have seen lousy videos of dudes putting that to practice and claiming it works when the girl buys it.

OK. TRP is not exclusive to hitting on Women though...it's about self betterment and taking your self respect back. If you want to talk seduction and game there are tangents that use TRP as a core concept.

What I notice consistently is that it's manipulative, it's used in a specific context with specific people (young women in clubs), and there is no proof it leads to long term meaningful relationships at all.

A fair comment, but please acknowledge any form of seduction, including trying to be a Beta Orbiter is manipulative to some extent. Let's not confuse manipulation with some form of bullying. Also, don't ever assume young women in clubs are good for anything other than an easy lay. An LTR is not a reasonable goal when going to bars. Practice in the minors before you hit the big leagues.

So okay, if you want to claim your theory works on these women, go ahead and manipulate those women. But you can't just assume any other woman will just fall for it.

Absolutely not, but AWALT. A diverse game can help you win almost any woman, but TRP must remain at your core to not go down the wrong path.

And then there is, y'know, the fact that women are inherently inferior according to TRP.

You'll need to jump over to the other thread some nitwit started claiming this is the case. Don't confuse the idea that women are not Superior to Men, to straight up say they are inferior. That is a petty feminist spin on it, and accomplishes nothing but to divide us all further.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

and watch everything around you magically get better.

I'd argue that relationships based on manipulation are unhealthy and harmful, but if that's what TRP wants, then good for them. Still sucks that they hurt other people in the process, though.

OK. TRP is not exclusive to hitting on Women though...

I really don't think anyone minds about the self-improvement bit. It's the part that paints women as inferior and develops all those manipulation techniques that gets criticized. So when I criticize TRP I am not criticizing the entirety of TRP (after all, it seems like no one within TRP agrees on what TRP is), but those two particular traits I just mentioned. And when looking at the TRP main page and side bar, the woman hate and the manipulation seem to be the most popular posts.

Also, don't ever assume young women in clubs are good for anything other than an easy lay.

This is exactly what I am referring to. Women who spend a lot of time in clubs are (generally) looking for easy hookups, which is probably why TRP's techniques work on them. I have nothing against hookups as long as no one's getting hurt. And if TRP wants to develop ways to pick up these women, great. The problem is that TRP seems to extend their observations of these women to women in general, which I think is wrong.

Absolutely not, but AWALT. A diverse game can help you win almost any woman

My issue with game is that it is inherently an act. If I'm looking for a hookup, fine, I don't care the guy I slept with is a lie, because I probably won't see him again. But if I'm looking for a real relationship? How long can he keep the act going? How long can he keep lying to me? Why should I be lied to?

Don't confuse the idea that women are not Superior to Men, to straight up say they are inferior.

While TRP does not say women are inferior, they don't seem to think they're equal to men either: they are children and should be treated as such, they are incapable of honour, their decisions are invalid because emotions, they don't know what's good for themselves, and they "hamster" all the time. If that's not a type of inferiority then nothing is.

[–]teeeloRed Pill-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Still sucks that they hurt other people in the process, though.

Assholes do this. You have a very specific thought or feeling when you say this but it's not clear to me. Lots of relationships without TRP influence end up in people being hurt.

the woman hate and the manipulation seem to be the most popular posts.

Again, no. If that's what you take from this then no wonder you are all anti TRP.

The problem is that TRP seems to extend their observations of these women to women in general, which I think is wrong.

Dude! AWALT. This is a complicated subject, but very true nonetheless. Yes there are exceptions. Remember not all women are given the same life to live, but their hypergamy etc is essentially the same.

How long can he keep lying to me? Why should I be lied to?

As long as you want him to. Don't play helpless if your BF is not what you thought he was. NEXT.

While TRP does not say women are inferior, they don't seem to think they're equal to men either: they are children and should be treated as such, they are incapable of honour, their decisions are invalid because emotions, they don't know what's good for themselves, and they "hamster" all the time. If that's not a type of inferiority then nothing is.

It is not just a woman's nature, but HUMAN nature where these feelings come from. Because of their role in society and their biological makeup they manifest differently. Of course it can and is overcome all the time, it's just often not a stable change. Women should spend less time being offended by TRP, but discovering and evolving what makes them amazing. They are capable of all sorts of things Men are not. We are not equal, both genders have their strengths and weaknesses. Debating superiority is a pointless exercise, when you know and are confident in yourself another's criticism is irrelevant.

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lots of relationships without TRP influence end up in people being hurt.

Yes, but starting one with manipulation is sort of a recipe for that kind of result. Being 'alpha' seems to imply being in charge for everything and not taking your partner seriously. There is a subset of people who are easy to manipulate and because of past experiences and psychological trauma, tend to easily fall in a submissive position (a submissive position in which being treated like trash is normal for them). They accept relationships that are detrimental to themselves, but eventually fall apart because the balance is always off. TRP gleefully takes advantage of this.

but their hypergamy etc is essentially the same.

This is the type of statement I mean. How? Source?

It is not just a woman's nature, but HUMAN nature where these feelings come from.

Yet men are human too as far as I know, and TRPers don't seem to think this applies to them at all.

Of course it can and is overcome all the time,

And yet TRPers keep saying you shouldn't let a woman make decisions because her outlook is biased by emotions? If women overcame this all the time, then why take it into consideration at all? If it's in my nature to act stupid, but I can overcome it, then why do you develop all your theories on the basis that I must be treated like stupid? Is it because me being stupid is profitable to you, since I'm easy to control?

Because of their role in society and their biological makeup they manifest differently.

I have never seen real biological and sociological proof of this. And men aren't influenced by hormones either? Aren't men as complex as women? If we're both from the same species, I see no reason why men wouldn't be influenced by hormones and emotions too.

Debating superiority is a pointless exercise,

On that I agree, but I never said women were superior at all. My issue is that TRP, with its current outlook, is out to hurt people making themselves believe that these the kind of relationship you need.

[–]teeelo1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I feel like at this point we are nit picking specific scenarios. In these circumstances you do have a valid moral objection to these unique situations you create. Just keep in mind not all 'Terp's' are assholes and not all assholes are Terp's.

but their hypergamy etc is essentially the same.

This is the type of statement I mean. How? Source?

How many sources would it take to convince you? It is prevalent throughout history. Men marry down, Women marry up.

Yet men are human too as far as I know, and TRPers don't seem to think this applies to them at all.

What part, hypergamy? Men and women have different roles in society. What I'm saying is men aren't exactly taking all the spoils here.

shouldn't let a woman make decisions because her outlook is biased by emotions

No major decision should be. Women are prone to using emotional energy to justify being in the right, this can be trouble.

If it's in my nature to act stupid, but I can overcome it, then why do you develop all your theories on the basis that I must be treated like stupid?

EXCELLENT point. If women don't need to act 'stupid', then there would be no issue. We live in a modern society where women can get away with being stupid, and Men are now realizing they don't have to put up with it!

I have never seen real biological and sociological proof of this. And men aren't influenced by hormones either?

Ok this sentence has me worried we aren't exactly on the same informational level here. Do you know the differences between testosterone and estrogen??

is out to hurt people making themselves believe that these the kind of relationship you need.

I'm sorry that's what you took from all of it. That's not how I interpret the wisdom at all.

The alternative to not reading TRP leaves men like me with essentially 2 choices when it comes to women. a) Die alone. b) Get with some used up Woman with two kids.

Turns out we don't have to settle for less.

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How many sources would it take to convince you? It is prevalent throughout history. Men marry down, Women marry up.

Yet most of the women I know married to their equals in terms of education and salary. I'm giving you my personal experience because this is what people from TRP seem to base themselves upon most of the time. It follows that if their experiences are valid, mine and other people's are as well. Besides, I had someone from TRP give me a source that more and more now, women are marrying down...

What part, hypergamy?

I was not referring to hypergamy here, I was referring to the "they can't be taken seriously because they have emotions" and the "hamstering" and the "they should be treated like children" parts. Hypergamy is a debatable concept which makes sense, whether people agree with it or not. Claiming women are inherently like children (read: lack agency, depend on other people, are inept at most things, cry all the time) is hardly valid because it paints a whole gender as underdeveloped and inferior.

Women are prone to using emotional energy

So far this is absolutely true, but is it really a bad thing? I see everyone out there shaming men for having emotions that aren't anger. Thing is, men have the same emotions than women, and the only reason why they are less prone to show them is because they are made fun of by society. A man is crying? That man's a pussy. A man is sad? He needs to man up. A man is sensitive? He's probably a homo, ugh. How are men supposed to learn to deal with all of that if they can't even let it out? Could this be one of the reasons why men commit suicide, are more prone to violence, are more prone to substance abuse?

Any psychologist will tell you that keeping all your emotions to yourself inevitably leads to a miserable life and poor mental health. Look at the media aimed at little boys. Where are the sensitive, in-touch-with-their-emotions men? We only see violent, tough ones.

While I agree with you that decisions must be made with a cold head, there is a difference between making decisions while emotional, and choosing to express your emotions. When I am sad, I let it out, but make my decisions after. There is nothing wrong with that. When women are sad, they tend to cry more, but men usually keep it to themselves, and that's not because they are any less capable of feeling sad.

Here's my own life experience again: my father is completely inept at dealing with his emotions. When he gets sad/angry/upset he is incapable to put his problems into perspective and calm down. Because of this one can hardly count on him in stressful, difficult times. My mother is the one who taught me to keep myself in check and to think clearly in the worst moments.

to justify being in the right

Is there any real proof of that apart from the personal experiences shared in TRP? I know women do this sometimes, but does this mean that

we should assume every woman does it
the ones who do can't make cold-headed decisions either

We live in a modern society where women can get away with being stupid

And men can't? How about those teenagers who raped a girl in school and everyone took it as a joke? How about the instances in which boys post compromising videos of their exes online and they're not blamed for it? How about-- and this is even worse-- when adult men sleep with younger women or girls and never get blamed for it while the woman/girl receives all the hate?

We can all get away with stupidity, I'm afraid. I don't think it's inherent to men or women.

and Men are now realizing they don't have to put up with it!

Okay, I see your point. My disagreement lies in the traits TRP assumes women can 'get away with,' but fair enough.

we aren't exactly on the same informational level here.

We're clearly not, because I was asking for evidence that shows that women are incapable to make a decision that isn't based on hormones or emotions.

Get with some used up Woman with two kids.

See, this is the problem I have with TRP. Dude, look, I understand. I know you wanna get laid. Heck, I'd like to get laid too, like everyone else in the goddamn planet. So if you're looking for a strategy to get laid by another woman who wants to get laid, thumbs up, go you.

But why does TRP continuously judge a woman's value by the amount of sex, partners, or kids she's had? I totally get it that you'd prefer getting a partner who doesn't have kids. But calling a single mother a "used up woman" is downright obnoxious and a bit immature. Single moms aren't even always responsible for being on their own. You know nothing about their life, just like I know nothing about yours. I don't call a single dad a "used up man" (cause, y'know, after all we don't see single dads in a bad light as a society, but we do moms). How do you know a single mom isn't a good person? How do you know she's not interesting? Why do you assume you couldn't have sex with her? This attitude towards women is what pisses people off.

There is a famous quote out there, "If a woman is soiled after you touch her, maybe you should look at your own hand."

[–]teeelo1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yet most of the women I know married to their equals in terms of education and salary.

Yes, Men will marry their equal or lower based on SMV.

It follows that if their experiences are valid, mine and other people's are as well.

Of course they are. Your beliefs aren't on trial here, TRP's are. I'd say this debate is over anyways.

I had someone from TRP give me a source [1] that more and more now, women are marrying down.

That's all well and good, just keep in mind that if their SMV was high enough they wouldn't have to. There's plenty of older Beta guys who would feel lucky to have someone else's left overs.

Claiming women are inherently like children (read: lack agency, depend on other people, are inept at most things, cry all the time) is hardly valid because it paints a whole gender as underdeveloped and inferior.

Not children, not a baby. A teenager. The most responsible teenager in the house. I don't suppose you think this is an insult as well? Why don't you like or respect teenagers? Better yet, why do so many women respond positively to being spoken to like a misbehaving teen? No one seems to raise a fuss that men mature slower than women and don't fully mature till they are in their mid 30's either.

How are men supposed to learn to deal with all of that if they can't even let it out?

Several topics I've participated in and even posts by endorsed contributors always recommend feeling your feels. And that they must be experienced in order to move on. Anger is a big one. It's also very understandable in our case.

Could this be one of the reasons why men commit suicide, are more prone to violence, are more prone to substance abuse?

Uhh, what are we debating again...?

Ok then... you go off about your feelings, your own personal experiences, uncited stories for reference, and your own special blend of pseudo science. You also ask for proof even though there never will be...

women are incapable to make a decision that isn't based on hormones or emotions.

Weather they can or not is not the issue. It's weather they do. We're not talking about business decisions here, were talking about doing the 'right' thing, and their version of what that is.

But why does TRP continuously judge a woman's value by the amount of sex, partners, or kids she's had?

We judge a woman's value based on SMV. Everyone does. Sluts don't make good LTR.

Honestly Man, after reading that last paragraph there you sound like a pretty serious White Knight whose mother had a bigger impact on you than your dad did. Me too. If you're happy, Idgaf. I can't be bothered to argue semantics anymore it's exhausting and pointless. You raise perfectly valid points to argue about but I am not prepared to argue each and every one of your made up scenarios.

The shit makes sense. You won't get it until it happens to you, and at that point you'll realize how pathetic political correctness really is.

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Title	There is no debate anymore
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	382
Date	August 1, 2014 2:58 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2cavr2/there_is_no_debate_anymore/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/there-is-no-debate-anymore.285200 https://theredarchive.com/post/285200

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