Thought experiment about arranged marriages

BudgetInteraction811 · 2023-04-25T05:05:03+00:00

Everyone brings up the low failure rate in arranged marriages, but fails to mention the extreme shame divorce beings upon families in many cultures. It’s practically forbidden lest you wish your whole family becomes a social pariah.

StrangestUnicorn · 2023-04-25T03:30:07+00:00

I agree with you that there is considerable value in having a trusted third party opinion during partner selection.

The challenge we have in modern culture is our shifting attitudes about the purpose of human connection, away from practical utility, and towards emotional fulfillment. This has had a significant impact on the criteria people use to choose friends and romantic partners.

And it is the changing nature of friendships that is of interest to this discussion. Given that many modern friendships are held together by "emotional connection", many people are wary of acting in a way that can potentially weaken this connection. One the consequences of this is the deterioration of the role of "adviser" that friends provide, with more and more people having "yes men" as friends. When people seek counsel about potential romantic prospects from their friends, they end up with two types of feedback:

Validation of self worth. Friends who always say "you deserve better" anytime a relationship issue is revealed.
Validation of connection. Friends who always say "you two are perfect for each other" even if they think otherwise.

The intent behind both of these types of feedback is to make the person feel good, rather than to objectively help them. I do believe that the lack of honest third party feedback is one of the causes of worsening dating climate we have experiences in the past few decades.

The difficulty many people have today in this regard, isn't their unwillingness to listen to external feedback, but finding people who can provide competent and honest counsel, and separating them from the ever-present people pleasing "yes men".

KittenHotel · 2023-04-25T03:18:31+00:00

we choose our romantic partners. And we divorce them at much higher rates than we estrange family members.

We have a more emotionally charged disposition towards romantic partners than family members, and much greater expectations. It doesn't matter if you have conflicting views with family members, because you won't live with them in the long run, and can avoid certain topics with them.

The fact we hold partners to a higher standard is all the more reason we have to hold ourselves accountable. No one else is going to spend 100s of hours vetting for you. No one else is going to choose a partner with your desires in mind without projecting their own values. Obviously third party input can be extremely valuable and is worth listening to.

Playing devil's advocate, if you're completely incompetent in vetting and don't know what you truly want, an arranged marriage is likely to provide a better outcome, but you're obviously better off learning what you want, and learning to vet properly.

LeicaRedEye · 2023-04-25T07:34:31+00:00

I have the most unpopular opinion in the matter. I'm all for matchmaking and arranged marriage.

You might not be familiar with matchmaking process but it's like a job interview and there is also meeting the people, see if you vibe with them, courtship phase where you test your chemistry. It's not like you get married without ever talking to the other person. The biggest difficulty is if you have to move in another country, you have to fully uproot your life and it's a big decision.

I was married when I was 23, and married through dating someone I met at my workplace. I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't looking for hookups and adventure, but looking to be married and make a family.

So before I met my husband, I was seriously considering matchmaking in my early 20's while also dating seriously.

Although the men I met where perfectly fine, working, educated, from good families (middle class, not divorced) etc, they weren't 100% , they didn't have potential, ambitions, very childish, they would drag their feet with proposing. They only thought to propose when I was breaking up with them, so they wouldn't lose me. It was a manipulative move, because that type of engagement means absolutely nothing, they would rather be engaged for decades before they would be married. It was devaluing and honestly offensive. Who would guarantee me that these guys wouldn't break up a decade long engagement when I was already in my 30s, kwim?

I knew my value, and I knew that through matchmaking I would score a lot better than through dating, because in my country wealth is limited, and most HVM live mostly overseas, where the women are stereotypical western. You might think it's calculated and bad thinking this, but for me it's only practical. There were men of very high value that wouldn't trust the women they'd meet through casual dating (equivalent to my experience), and also their (very conservative) families wouldn't approve of their relationships to such women. I was proposed by such families from Boston and NY, to at least move for a while in these areas so they get to know me, and also for me to see if I like any of their sons. So I had choices, I could meet them, date them and even catch feelings with any of them, who were already guaranteed to be honest, wealthy, good families and with 100% intention to start a family immediately and not play games.

At the time I had a good job in finance and I had just met my husband, so although I was very very tempted, I declined the proposals of arrangements, and stayed with my wonderful husband who promptly proposed without delays.

If things didn't work out with my husband I would definitely move to the East coast for matchmaking.

FriendCountZero · 2023-04-25T03:03:56+00:00

I definitely get that defensive monster rising within me at the idea but your experience is not abnormal and there is certainly something to it.

I think the healthiest approach is a middle ground where we date men that are part of our communities so that our families know eachother and we can look to our parents and siblings for input. Chosing a partner shouldn't be done alone, whether its being done by the young woman or not. I also think you can get a lot of that long-haul kind of love just by marrying earlier in life. I know my husband isn't perfect but at only 30 years old we have been through hell and back (and there again) together and he is an extension of me no matter how he may be behaving in any given moment.

terryxa · 2023-04-25T12:54:19+00:00

Divorce is the not the only form of marital failure.

Abuse, shame culture, collectivist attitudes (in-law bullying, lack of marital choice) are all common in cultures that practice arranged marriages (and I'd argue it's in great part what holds those low divorce rates together).

Boolzay · 2023-04-25T02:58:36+00:00

Where I live, a more traditional part of the world, family is always involved in your choice of partners, girls are very protected, mothers are always on the lookout for the right guy for their daughters. Dads also interfere and can end a relationship if they consider the guy a loser. Divorces are rare, most married couples I know are genuinely happy. It sounds boring maybe, I would opt in for a more exciting life, but I guess that comes at a cost.

Sunshine12e · 2023-04-25T06:12:27+00:00

I know plenty of people in arranged marriages. The majority who I know, are not happy. A lot of cheating, a suicide, a guy making his wife live on a pittance while he funds the lives of his prostitute girlfriends.

xcheshirecatxx · 2023-04-25T05:04:10+00:00

arranged marriage society usually have a problem with woman's sexuality
many people should cut contact with their family

My parents always tried to push me on good guys but I couldn't even remotely imagine myself sexual with them

Reddthrown · 2023-04-25T11:14:28+00:00

Rather, isn't the issue leading to so many divorces:

- Early on in life, insane social pressure to sleep around with as many people as possible until you approach 30, instead of actually looking for and learning how to build a trusted relationship;

- Insane expectations from a life partner and unwillingness to accept nothing less than perfection;

- Unwillingness to actually work on relationships (and by that I mean find a compromise that works, with efforts made by us too, rather than "yeah why won't my partner do all the changing");

- A feeling, brought by having so many sex partners early on, that there is a better option out there;

- Lastly, a financial incentive for the lower-earning partner to divorce.

2023-04-25T13:57:50+00:00

I'm from Pakistan, where arranged marriages are common. They're also common in India. Contrary to popular belief, it's not just your parents making this decision for you. Typically, the whole family makes the decision together. Everything of value is taken into consideration; family background, work, lifestyle, education, wealth, etc. Most will allow you to talk in private to discuss personal things and see if the two are compatible as well. Ultimately the woman holds the power to reject or accept the man. The idea is to make a rational decision on marriage to someone you see capable of falling in love with for life first, then fall head over heels for the person. If you fall in love first, then you can't make a rational decision about their pros and cons.

You can do all this yourself as well. If you trust your parents with such affairs, take their input into consideration. Analyze for compatibility before falling in love. I hope this helps.

Cosima_Fan_Tutte · 2023-04-25T14:03:44+00:00

Sometimes I wonder if the paradigm of choosing your own mate is really the best choice for long term happiness.

I suspect that the definitions of "love" and "happiness" in an arranged marriage culture vs mainstream western post-sexual revolution culture are so different that they can't possibly be compared. They are alien to each other. Completely different conception of what these terms ought to mean to an individual and a family. Apples and oranges.

We dont choose our families, and yet we love them....And we divorce them at much higher rates than we estrange family members.

I'd be curious if this is true because Americans have no qualms about breaking bonds with family members. It doesn't even have to be decisively going no contact, people in the U.S. break family bonds all the time by moving away for college and jobs. It's still considered normal for adult children to move out (even if less common now due to economic rather than sentimental reasons). On this very sub, we can't advise women to "just leave" some boyfriend, but there's no similar rule for advising breaking bonds with one's family.

You're really talking about a culture of the individual (you owe something to yourself only) vs the collective (you owe something to your family), and these ideas developed over centuries and centuries.

Malibu_Sorbet · 2023-04-26T22:10:38+00:00

I’m South Asian and almost all my family members and friends had arranged marriages.

I don’t like how a few examples of successful marriages are used to convince everyone that AM is better than dating. Yes, many couples in fact do have successful arranged marriages but many also don’t. The stigma of divorce and remarriage is so high that people choose to stay unhappily married. This unhappiness projects on their families.

Amongst the friends who are in my age range (25-35), I’ve noticed that people who chose their own partners are far happier than the ones in an AM. Even the ones in a happy AM courted for at least 8 months to 1.5 years before tying the knot (practically dating).

k0unitX · 2023-04-25T03:07:00+00:00

Wasn't there a study done that found arranged marriages have basically the same success rate as selecting your own spouse?

LateralThinker13 · 2023-04-25T03:09:20+00:00

The freedom to pick a partner, coupled with the freedom to divorce without cause, are why arranged marriages have some appeal now. No-fault divorce is one of the biggest mistakes modern society ever made.

With arranged marriages, you accept that a marriage is PERMANENT, barring actual legitimate abuse and neglect. You go into it not with love or lust goggles, but with an honest understanding that this is all you get. You have to make it work, no takebacks. So you find someone you can at least work with long term, and then FIND love for them, or at least companionship.

Coming from an Indian background myself, I can say that while it isn't perfect it works better than what the West is currently bumbling through. It's worked for family members, my father included, though I was spared it.

The biggest argument against this is the sexual attraction component. Someone can be perfect for you on paper and there is just no chemistry.

In some ways this is a feature, not a bug. Lust doesn't last.

EDIT: one last thought. To be clear, arranged marriages work for two reasons. One, because they're premised on factors other than lust/love at first sight. Two, because they are expected to be permanent.

Regular Western marriages could work again if we simply did away with no-fault divorce laws and any alimony above the poverty line. Take away easy and profitable divorces from women, where all incentive for women to make the marriages work is removed, and you'll get marriages that last once more.

SurrealDreamerHere · 2023-04-25T03:21:05+00:00

From where I’ve been born and raised, arranged marriages were the only norm. We hardly heard of divorces. Ppl were definitely much happier and marriages lasted a lifetime. Yes, there’s the occasional really bad marriage that has some really bad issues. But those were rare and really really hard to find. So yes they do work out well. And you are right, it’s the feeling of family, the girl would willingly become a part of the boys family and that’s how one stays together for life.

mi7711 · 2023-04-25T08:23:37+00:00

My mom has very high traditional standards when it comes to men I'm dating and every partner she had ever hinted for me has been a HVM. I never dated any of them, but if I didn't have a boyfriend I chose myself (and chose well) I'd try talking to someone with her approval.

I think it takes a lot of mental pressure from you, and you get help from someone who has your best interest in mind. You can always refuse the proposal if you don't feel the connection or compatibility with the match.

Personally I'd feel really relieved and much more secure in dating had this been an option commonly accepted in my culture. The only thing worrying me is the pressure to marry someone you don't feel attracted to or someone that treats you worse than you deserve. It must be horrible, and it's unfortunately common in cultures that do arranged marriages.

CapitalG888 · 2023-04-25T14:00:16+00:00

We don't choose our family and absolutely don't need to love them just because "they're an extension of you. "

Shitty people don't deserve me.

Back to your original question. I'm friends with a few Pakistani people and an Indian. I've not heard one of them speak highly of their wives who they were arranged to.

While my mother may have known me growing up, I'm not the same person I was. She has no idea what would make me happy in a relationship.

Marriage before living together, having to talk about finances, and getting to know your partner sexually is a huge mistake.

AutoModerator · 2023-04-25T02:35:46+00:00

Title: Thought experiment about arranged marriages

Full text: I've dated a lot of men in my life. I've been married and divorced. Now I'm in my 40s and I've basically been disillusioned of all the romantic pretensions I had about true love when I was younger.

That is absolutely not to say love is not real or worthwhile. But real love is not the romantic feeling you get for a person of the opposite sex. It is more of a familial feeling - that you would do anything for another person because they are an extension of you, or part of your family.

We dont choose our families, and yet we love them. Yet, in modern america, we choose our romantic partners. And we divorce them at much higher rates than we estrange family members. Perhaps we can love romantic partners we did not choose, as we love family members we did not choose.

This led me to think: I have dated many men in my life on the premise that I was the best person to choose who is right for me. This has led to a 100% long term failure rate.

I wonder, would it be better if a third party, someone with my best interest in mind, chose my partner? Maybe we ourselves cannot be objective enough to choose our own best match?

The biggest argument against this is the sexual attraction component. Someone can be perfect for you on paper and there is just no chemistry.

Anyway, curious for thoughts.

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TheBunk_TB · 2023-04-25T13:23:05+00:00

Arranged marriages are good for people that have their proverbial chips in, bad for those that half ass things.

I also don't think that they are good for women after multiple failed relationships.

TheBunk_TB · 2023-04-25T13:32:32+00:00

"I wonder, would it be better if a third party, someone with my best interest in mind, chose my partner? Maybe we ourselves cannot be objective enough to choose our own best match?"

In certain instances, it would be better. Many people can't look past social programming. We used to have "community" for things like this, now many are floundering in the wind or paralyzed by too many options.

Hani127 · 2023-04-25T21:43:58+00:00

Such an thought provoking conversation ❤️

bloomwish · 2023-04-27T05:52:04+00:00

I was exposed to arranged marriages when I moved to my husband’s country where most people have arranged marriages. He was the first in his family to get what they call here a “love marriage”. From what I’ve observed, the arranged couples I’ve met seem just as happy and loving as couples back home in my country (US) that chose their own partners without family input. The divorce rate is lower, but it’s because there is huge stigma around divorce here, much much more so on women. One of my husband’s distant relatives even publicly shamed me at a big family get-together because my mother is a divorcée — even though divorce is allowed in Islam, and by her own account she is a very religious woman. Alas, culture has a strong grip.

While most my IRL examples of arranged marriages have seemed great, I’ve seen some truly horrific examples of arranged marriage gone wrong on r/MuslimMarriage and it’s not something I’d want for my daughter. I’d feel awful if my husband and I set her up with someone she’s unhappy with or that’s abusive or something. (Although to reiterate, I’ve seen many many great examples of arranged Muslim couples — Reddit tends to draw in more people who need to vent but have no one to talk to, so the examples on that sub are ofc going to be skewed.)

Tbh though, I don’t really see why parents or another third party would know who would make a better partner than the person looking to get married would though. Oftentimes the parents don’t really know the potentials any more than their children do other than what they see on paper. Other times, I suppose they know them REALLY well because cousin marriage is big here — but that’s a whole other thing.

If anything, you could choose your own partner, but then get approval from a parent or trusted third party if you really wanted a second opinion. “Get my father’s blessing before proposing!” has a big history in the US. I feel like this is maybe the best middle ground for people who don’t trust their own judgment.

LiteratureOk7716 · 2023-04-27T19:20:35+00:00

My husband is the product of (Moroccan and Palestinian) grandparents who were in arranged marriages in the west (Belgium and France). His thoughts on it are that it's just as much of a cr*pshoot as love marriages.

Also, in his view, marriage is always a union of families, in an extended sense of the word. Whether it was his fraternity brothers, his wine drinking group, my sorority sisters, or my poetry group, upon marriage, most of these changed (at least occasionally) to "our" groups.

What this entailed is that my sorority sisters had to do the "vetting" that my ancestors did in an earlier time. If they didn't like the partner, there would have been no marriage.

By the same token, his friends put me through the ringer.

Slice_n_Rice_bruh · 2023-05-04T04:25:25+00:00

Should we go back to arranged marriages?

Title	Thought experiment about arranged marriages
Author	new_moon_solstice
Upvotes	51
Comments	45
Date	April 25, 2023 2:35 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/12y5hoa/thought_experiment_about_arranged_marriages/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/thought-experiment-about-arranged-marriages.1216743 https://theredarchive.com/post/1216743

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