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[–]saito200 136 points137 points138 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Yes, I believe you're right on all your points.
It's a matter of naming. What you call "nice guy" I would call "good guy" and what you call "harmless guy" I call "nice guy". On seeing your title and 1st paragraph I was wondering but once you define what nice guy is I agree. I think maybe the community TRP and others might use same naming as me, this may lead to some confusion.
[–]Lumenis 8 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
We should use "nice guy" for "good guy", the ones OP described, and "Nice Guy" for everything related to /r/niceguys .
[–]saito200 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
yes I'm sure that would help a lot /s
Are you serious?
[–]Lumenis 8 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Well... yes? I don't know, don't really care, just an idea off the top of my head.
[–]saito200 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because you're a chill guy/gal
[–]jake_megabyte 50 points51 points52 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Very true. The problem is the "nice guy" has emotional pain that is making him act in a validation seeking way. Nice guys can become amazing and powerful men, they just need to heal a lot of bullshit. They have to do the work themselves though.
[–]MartMillz 23 points24 points25 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"Your emotional pain is unattractive and for that reason you do not get love"
Thanks Obama
[–]speakingofsegues 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
For the most part I agree. The only thing I'd add is that the feedback loop plays a huge part of that. When the nice guy is working on himself and is still met with constant rejection, he feels like he's either not doing it right, or not good enough, or that it must be something else, or that it doesn't matter. It's like going to the gym - if you don't start to see an improvement after a while, you wonder what's wrong.
Finding girls who are sensitive to this and are at least happy to go on a date or otherwise end up being a sign that what the nice guy is doing is working, can be a huge help.
[–]Chairman-Meeow 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is where I'm at. There's the general advice of approaching being a numbers game, while it's true I don't approach like some on here, I do try and sometimes succeed but even when I get a date with an amazing girl, I just seem to fuck it up. It's tough to really try working on yourself and see no improvement. Like you said, sometimes you go to the gym and it's like "where's the improvements I've been busting my ass for?"
[–]Hey_You_Asked 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What are the best resources for precisely that?
[–]jake_megabyte 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No more Mr nice guy is a great book to start with.
[–]dem_gainzz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Therapy.
[–]NewAndExistingUser 30 points31 points32 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In my opinion don't let others walk over you, but don't feel desperate or like you have to do so. A lion doesn't think about a vulture.
If it's a stranger, like the new guy at work ate a slice of pizza you and a friend ordered because you left it in the break room. That's an accident, don't be a dick, be chill about it.
If a friend makes a comment about how stupid something is on you, own it and tell them they couldn't pull it off.
Yeah don't let people walk all over you, but getting angry or getting into a fight screams that you're insecure and unstable. Don't let things wreck your day, don't even think about the little things. When things are serious then you cut people off, don't let yourself be insulted or slighted regularly, handle it or end things with those people.
[–][deleted] 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
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[–][deleted] 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
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[–][deleted] 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]JefemanG 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There's a huge difference between being a nice guy and being a pussy. A lot of guys seem to miss that point and think to get girls you need to be nice and submissive/skittish...
If you can be confident in yourself, nice, and willing to go after what you want, you'll get much farther than the guys who are assholes. Guarantee it.
[–]mxrz74 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Very interesting!!
[–]RavenLordx 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I really like your thoughts and I think I needed to hear those things right now, so as a start, thank you. Yes it might be something that has been said before, but your way of analyzing this subject made me realise some things I had missed. I think it cuts down to the point and clears up all the confusion about this particular issue a bit.
[–]Orobek 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm glad I was able to hit a note that stuck with you!
[–]barnun 8 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Not true, women only hold power if you give it to them. We live in a cultural paradigm that says men pursue, which puts women in the role of filtering and selecting, but where a man acts from within himself makes a big difference as to the power balance of any given connection. Women desire men, therefore they do not always hold power. They usually hide their desire up front due to the same cultural paradigm, but it's there, they have stake in the Game same as we do.
If a man approaches women with the mindset that they hold power, he will disempower himself and reinforce his preconceived reality. A man who knows he is desired by women is not pursuing women as much as testing to find out which women desire him. He is therefore actually filtering and selecting. From that perspective, he can be seen to have more power because he has the leverage to initiate. Most women don't initiate due to the cultural paradigm, and can feel disempowered in that way.
I've turned down women who wanted sex with me. I've had women tell me they can't resist me. I've also of course had plenty of women reject me. It cuts both ways.
[–]Orobek 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I think you're absolutely right in that everyone filters. Of course. It's not only women who do the selecting. However, in terms of dating and sex, you have to consider the sheer abundance women live in compared to men. We can both take a position of power in a relationship and do the choosing, but I think women have a much larger pool of willing men to choose from than vice versa, which does a lot for the imbalance of power overall. These are just my presumptions, and I could be wrong.
[–]barnun6 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's interesting how things shift depending on the perspective we take. On a macro/sociological/societal perspective, yes, you have men wanting sex and setting a low bar for qualification ("I'd fuck any woman who wants me!"), and women having all of those men to choose from and setting a high bar (or setting their personal bar wherever they like, which can vary as they please). Therefore, women must have all the power in sex, they are the gatekeepers.
On an individual level, however, it's not so black and white. There are men who can have any woman they choose. There are women who can't get laid no matter what they do. There are men who can have way more women than they believe they can, but consistently shoot themselves in the foot due to their insecurities. There are women who are DTF pretty indiscriminately with guys provided they don't shoot themselves in the foot. There are guys who have very specific standards and will only consider sex if a woman meets them.
I used to buy in to the big picture reality. It made me feel disempowered in relationship to women. The truth was, I had no standards. Every girl I looked at (mostly), I thought about fucking. More specifically, I thought about whether she'd fuck me. In my head, I was already committed, and all that mattered was to get her to commit too. Of course, this immediately disempowered me in relationship to her. She could ignore me, treat me like shit, run hot and cold on me, whatever she liked, but all I cared about was hanging in their long enough to hopefully get a shot with her, and I regularly got walked all over, of course.
After spending a great deal of time looking into myself, facing my insecurities, accepting what I considered my weaknesses and thinking about what truly matters to me and what I desire (all of this is still ongoing), I now have a set of standards I operate out of, which has shifted the balance of power I feel with women considerably. Women (most women) are raised to be aware of their preferences and standards, and to compare potential partners against them. Men, often, are raised with the idea that sex is an achievement under nearly any circumstance, so we never learn about when and why we should say no.
Ok, this is super long, but the TL;DR is that men need to do the inner work of self-actualization in a world that essentially programs us to base our worth in external achievements. By developing our unique selves and connecting with our true desires, limitations, preferences and values, we subvert the cultural paradigm and balance the scales of power in our relationships with women.
[–]slamsomethc 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you both to a degree.
What the commentor above you should have specified is that if a man actually has the level of attractiveness to leverage himself then he can ignore the abundance women have because he also experiences abundance. I'd say TRP has it about right using the paretto distribution. The top percent get more of the women/have women hold out delusionally believing they'll be selected by a top tier guy, than the bottom majority.
You're right though that unfortunately more men than women are just ballsy enough to pursue meat, any meat, and give very low quality women (whatever the metric is that's being assessed) the impression that they are valuable, and in abundance of and deserving a good man, while the good men know the game and get the good women.
[–]aznology 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Lol exactly this I think as a person who has been through all phases of the nice guy act. My last and current form is good. Feels good feels like living for myself and telling others to fuck off. Here's what I learned, be nice to everyone: not putting up a fascade or anything just be genuinely nice for humanity. Like don't go out of the way nice like hug a grandma or something but open doors and stuff when convient. Don't fucking run around opening then that's wierd. Now, don't let people walk over you. Shut that shit down quick! And exert control / dominance where needed be. Don't let anyone including women walk over you. Remember women are like a a dime a dozen 3.5 billion women out there you have options. Pick a good one throw out the rotten ones
[–]big_blue_baloon 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Two questions:
[–]stonewall1979 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Any disrespect is punishable, it's a matter of degree and setting boundaries. You cannot 'punish' another adult in a traditional sense, you punish them by removing your time and affection temporarily. Unless your both into a little bdsm, then a spanking takes on a different meaning.
You need to understand the line between teasing and disrespect, and it's a boundary issue. And boundaries need to be enforced quickly, and calmly.
[–]Orobek 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This exactly.
[–]big_blue_baloon 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I see, so first you need to get to the point where the girl craves your time and affection, and then you can start punishing her stepping over the line by denying that.
Kinda makes sense, but also the latter is the easy part tbh. Making her crave is more difficult.
[–]Orobek 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Not at all. We're saying it's an important line you draw between a girl teasing you and a girl disrespecting you. Really, it's for you as an individual to draw that line. First thing I would think about punishment is confronting someone about their disrespect. Let them know they can't get away with stuff like that around you.
[–]big_blue_baloon 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've noticed that too and it doesn't only apply to girls. People definitely respect you more if you don't let them walk all over you :)
[–]barnun 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
It's not really about "niceness." It's about negative core beliefs. Many core beliefs are not conscious, at least until we dig down and ferret them out. Some I've had, confronted and shifted over time:
-Women are better than men
-I have to make women like me (they won't do so naturally)
-Men want sex more than women
-Women always want committed relationships
-Women hold all the power in sex and relationships
-It's disrespectful to show sexual interest
-Women will see my insecurity if I hit on them and reject me for it
-I need a woman to accept all of who I am to feel worthy
Finally, just recently I had a breakthrough about only owning my part in every relationship and interaction, and it was like the final puzzle piece to a new level of internal freedom. Looking back, it's crazy how many unhealthy beliefs I've held, and the most important part is that for most of my life I had NO IDEA that's where I was operating from.
I'm a nice guy, I always will be. I believe in openness, respect, communication, equality, I'm nurturing and helpful by nature and I will go all out for someone I love. I've just had to learn that I deserve all of that too, but that no one is obligated to give it to me, and it's not something I need to or should try to earn from anyone.
[–]Redsfan192 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Women hold all of the power in sex, but not necessarily relationships. But sex? Of course. That's why male prostitutes are basically instinct, and female prostitutes are everywhere. It's also why Tinder, and other dating apps/sites are booming for women, but doing nothing for men.
[–]napes22 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
I agree with some of your points, mainly that you need to actually be a nice person but also have confidence and integrity. But in many cases, women your age do not actually want "nice guys." When they are ready for them, they will seek them out.
[–]Manns15 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yep.
Whenever they're over the whole ridiculous "bad boy" phase, some women will discover the treasure trove of genuine good guys they have passed over.
[–]napes22 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yup, OPs insistence that nice guys freak out when rejected leads me to believe she isn't actually seeking out nice guys. "Act like a man and get treated like a man" further proves this.
[–]Orobek 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Hm. I can't speak for other women my age, but with this post I was hoping to communicate that at least one of us ladies likes real nice guys. Of course we want dominant and aggressive men, but dominance/aggression and being "nice" are not mutually exclusive. I think it's a fine line. I guess I just wanted to say that yes, women want dominance/aggression, but this doesn't mean they want guys that treat them like shit, like a lot of people believe.
[–]napes22 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Definitely valid and I agree with you. My point is that many younger women will not go for nice guys until they are ready. Granted I live in NYC so the dating scene is definitely different. But I understand the distinction between a nice guy and someone who is acting nice to get women.
[–]viejotrolo 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
it's a little contradictory to state you can't speak for other ladies your age and then talk about how all of women want a dominant, aggressive guy who can be a "monster". besides, personality is a spectrum and most people probably don't fit into either of those categories you mentioned.
[–]Orobek 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I mean, take what I say with a grain of salt. I think I have a decent idea about my demographic, but of course I'm only one person, and there are probably many exceptions. I can't discuss anything about women in general without making a bit of a leap outside of my zone of experience.
[–]Freevoulous 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You basically described the difference between a Nice Guy and Good Guy.
[–]Ducharbaine 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Semantics. Not an epiphany. The nice guy puts women on a pedestal and is thrilled when a woman graces him with her favor. He holds doors for her because he wants her to like him. The good man holds the door, too, but it's because he wants to be the kind of man who holds the door not because he seeks praise. The woman can tell the difference.
[–]braintrejo 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
When I saw the title and you being a girl I expected yet another defense towards nice guys, but I think you're right about this one. Nice guys can have emotional problems they think they can solve by being even nicer.
On the other hand, I don't believe you want a guy being always nice despite him having self-respect. Girls are also attracted to dominant and slightly agressive guys who gives them some hard pounding without saying sorry.
[–]purplestuff11 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think we all know this but have different names for it. What you call harmless guys I call nice guys and what you call nice guys I call them things like a man's man or a chill guy. Your points are good though. Being kind isn't bad it's being a doormat that's bad.
[–]Thecrow1981 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think this about sums it up perfectly.
[–]zoomzoom1998 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
great stuff
[–]Hector_Castillo 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
At the same time, a nice girl is the parallel of a nice guy. She treats her man in a way that makes him proud to be a man. She doesn't shame him for his masculinity. But similarly, she can exert her feminine control when she needs to. If she doesn't believe he is treating her the way she wants, she should calmly voice her concerns. And if he doesn't agree/listen, she cleanly ends the relationship without guilt-tripping or causing drama.
These women are very rare. Far rarer than "nice guys."
Nice guys aren't nice guys. They're weak and use their niceness as a token. They hope that enough nice-tokens and they'll get pussies. At least "bad boys" are honest about what they want, but since their honesty, in all aspects, is outside the norm, they are labeled "bad." But mostly, they're simply honest.
Act like a man, and be treated like a man.
Sure.
If a girl doesn't respond to this model in your behaviour, she is not worth your time.
You're British, I see.
Broad strokes about certain women not being worth your time...yes, it's good motivation, but not applicable. We men like empirical, specific discussions.
For instance, you meet a girl who's got her wall up. It's not because she's a bitch, but because she needs to have this wall up to keep creeps/pussies out. It screens men passively. Nice strong guy walks up, is nice to her, and meets some resistance. He walks away. "She's not worth his time," he thinks.
Guy who's got a bit more of a ribald edge walks up, compliments her, and she gives him a quick look then returns to her drink.
"Are you always like this?"
She turns back to him and gives him that look of "game on." The seduction ensues.
You are saying this, I believe, with your "nice guys need to be able to be monsters when they need," but we need more specificity.
Other than that, great post. Lots of guys in the seduction community are a bit resistant to female advice, as they believe the fish can't give the fisherman advice on catching fish, but they forget that the fish *want** to be caught.*
I'm Canadian, actually.
What I was trying to do with this post was redefine "nice guy". Yes, I am familiar with the "nice guy" who uses niceness as a token, but I argue that this is not an actual NICE guy, but a harmless guy. And women destroy harmless guys, generally.
I'm not trying to say that women won't resist if you do X. However, I would argue that if you aim to be what I call a nice guy (a man that is truly nice without compromising his dominance), an experienced woman will know, and she'll likely let you know. I'm more specifying that if you are kind AND dominant, a high value woman will respond.
If some lady actually likes being treated like garbage, she probably has a collection of issues surrounding it that you wouldn't want to get into. If you don't have a problem with that, great! You get what you pay for, is all.
Will you tell me how you'd like me to be more specific?
[–]Hector_Castillo 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, I am familiar with the "nice guy" who uses niceness as a token, but I argue that this is not an actual NICE guy, but a harmless guy. And women destroy harmless guys, generally.
Harmless guys aren't harmless because they don't possess savagery. They are harmless because they're afraid of unleashing it, i..e, they are afraid of someone not liking them.
I used to be one. Lost every high school wrestling match I had because I was afraid that winning would make the other guy feel bad. Or so i thought. Turns out I was simply afraid of going hard because he might retaliate by going harder. Much simpler to go half-speed and lose. Really stupid mentality. Full of inconsistencies. And it was pathetic.
So when a man is harmless, I remember my own hypocrisy in my harmless days and remind myself that they are simply using harmlessness as a tactic. It's a tool to generate pity and sympathy from others. Decent survival mechanism, actually. Much less effort than becoming strong. Rick and Morty had a great little bit on it in a recent episode. Rick goes off on Jerry for being a harmless/nice guy.
Tl;dr harmless guys are nice because being "nice" avoids conflict. Both of our definitions have merged.
I'm more specifying that if you are kind AND dominant, a high value woman will respond.
Yes. Many RPers, for instance, are ultra-dicks and that's a good way to only have ONS's but never relationships. Also, high value women rarely sleep with douchebags. They see through the game. Gotta be genuine to get the top women
If some lady actually likes being treated like garbage, she probably has a collection of issues surrounding it that you wouldn't want to get into.
This is what I mean by specificity. In my example, I illustrated a woman being momentarily bitchy as a screening tool. This community draws lots of nerds, including me, and we like funny words that signify specific instances, like the already used "screening" or "bitch shield." Men usually know how to distinguish these.
"A girl treating you like garbage" is poetic but broad and general. If some girl says something rude to me, I might find it cute and a chance to make her submit, but another man might see it as her "treating me like garbage" and walk off in a butthurt rage. We all have different thresholds, so specificity helps.
My favorite tool for specificity is to either come up with a fictional scenario or an anecdote. The more concrete, the better. Conversations. Body language descriptions.
An educational romance novel, if you would, eh?
[–]Veganpuncher 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
TL:DR - Do not mistake my kindness for weakness.
Great post. Thank you.
[–]Wowistheword 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Upvoted for JBP. I totally agree with your analysis.
[–]speakingofsegues 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And when we stand up for ourselves, we get further shit tests and blamed for "not being cool" about it (ie not just taking their shit). Especially when being accused of something someone is not, that shit doesn't fly, and I'm not going to let it in order to be seen as "being cool about it". And if that makes the girl walk away, then good riddance.
[–]Fuckeveryone222 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah there's a difference between being a 'nice guy' and an actual nice guy
A 'nice guy' is obviously just being nice to get laid. His only positive trait is that he can be nice. What these types of people don't understand is that being nice is a bare minimum requirement. That's like walking in for a sysadmin job and saying "I know how to turn on and off a computer". Congrats, so does 95% of the population.
Im good with women and I'm an actual nice guy. My generosity isn't my only trait, and I'm nice to everyone and don't expect a thing in return. I'm also witty and funny and know how to dress. I also generally enjoy being the center of attention so I'm highly sociable. My traits are genuine and not obviously being faked with the intention of getting in someone's pants. In fact I rarely approach a women with the intention of just getting in their pants in the first place, if I like them after the initial introduction and getting to know them, then I just go for it
[–]luaudesign 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's all about inner game. Guys aren't pretending to be nice. They are being themselves. It's just that they're niceness is coming from the wrong place: putting women on a pedestal.
[–]kalel2864 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
See but you misunderstand that the implicit definition of nice guy by societal standards is emasculated and by "nice" they think it means subservient. The real challenge is changing the stigma.
[–]OnlyOnceThreetimes 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Basically be nice, but dont be a pussy. The typical "nice guy" that gets friendzoned is a pussy.
[–]Artrock80 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I like "be a gentleman, but not a gentle man."
[–]luaudesign 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Girls don't friendzone nice guys. They reject nice guys. Then the nice guys friendzone themselves.
[–]Redsfan192 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
e nice to everyone: not putting up a fascade or anything just be genuinely nice for humanity. Like don't go out of the
Most Millennial women like "pussies" these days. I blame it on this "Men and women are the same" movement(Which isn't biologically true).
[–]OnlyOnceThreetimes 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well I mean, good on society for liking pussies. I think with every generation that comes and goes, men become a little less manly. But I am all for evolution.
[–]masterp21 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good synopsis. Hopefully the faggy moderators don't take your post down for mentioning Jordan Peterson (I've seen them do it before). Thanks for sharing :)
[–]live4failure 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Its all confusing to me. I act with modesty and idgaf about anything. I'm fucking ripped, own a boat, am a successful student, and do all the coolest shit there is and still don't get attraction from women. (For example for summer break I sailed in the pacific for weeks and learned to solo, travelled constantly, lost weight to finish a glorious 8-pack of abs, got a new job and have a big dick XD) I'm only 21 and feel like I'm mentally 5 years ahead of most of my friends when it comes to having my shit together. But I can't get women to talk to me like they seem to other dudes. They don't respond to questions or ice breakers, its only my own bullshit. As you can see, I've got plenty to discuss and I do a lot of shit. I can even involve them firsthand. I seem to attract bitchy/crazy ones or girls that flake. I've been with older women (almost 30s) with great success. One told me she would marry me if I was older, another said she wanted to fuck until she ruined me.
Older women seem to know whats up and know when I mean business. They also keep the conversation flowing instead of just dropping out. Girls my age apparently don't know shit. They never have shit to say except "Hey". What do I do?
Tl;dr---I'm a cool mf. Good looking, blessed individual. Sometimes lazy but confident. How can i get a stronger attraction from women (19-23) that are my age? They never seem to have shit to say but want to talk. Is it maybe a physical/sexual thing I'm not tuning into? Should I just be asking them out straight up and then make some moves?
[–]neBReddit 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'd say do more weights, look more into 'reading people' and a lot of it is dependent on the woman.
If you're not able to get women with all those perks, you are lacking something and luck is not you're answer.
How do you know you're good looking? Are you really mentally ahead? One day you might find out you've been lying to yourself (out of experience) or see something you didn't before. You find that and improve upon it.
Cold approaching, the environment you're in, social circles, social skills, people related hobbies and jobs, friends, how you dress, etc... you gotta read, find and better what you can. Sounds like you need more help with reading people.
[–]live4failure 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm basically a farm boy turned doctor. In other words, well rounded but socially retarded. I definitely need to work on social circles and maybe some topics women like. You could probably say I'm self centered too because theres not many people i interact with consistently. Guess you're right when you say I can't work off luck forever haha
[–]Hector_Castillo 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You're probably intimidating them. If what you say is true, you're very high value and it's obvious. But from the way you write, you might come off a bit too pompous to them. A high value and pompous guy can intimidate a lot of women. Remember, most women are average. Men populate the extremes; the worst and the best, but MOST women are pretty damn average in looks and intellect.
Women who are 18-23 don't mind talking about deep shit, but they need some fun, light banter first. Should post some field reports of conversations you have women and give specific details. We could help more given these.
Also, as you insinuate, maybe you need to be more direct. Are you complimenting these girls? Asking them out? Or just talking way too much?
[–]live4failure1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I lay low in social atmosphere and am very quiet. Ii kinda flip a switch in professional atmosphere's though. For example, I'm very active in conversation and in my classes. I can grab the attention of a group and make them laugh. But i think its the flirting and directness. I do talk a lot but I try to focus on them and their current life. I like to relate back a lot to similar experiences I've had. I definitely compliment women on their clothing, jewelry, and hair. But I don't know how to ask or what to ask afterwards. Is it like, "Hey it would be a shame to end all of this fun so abruptly. Maybe we can head back to my place for popcorn and a movie?" Or something along those lines? Idk I feel like I just sound creepy and regardless of what I say it makes them uncomfortable lol..
I lead the talking but I'm pretty inexperienced with seduction and the later events. Getting to the private and alone stage is tough for me.
I dont have anything saved really but I was talking to 3 babes recently.
One was successful with direct approach, but she led mostly and wanted some "fun" on snapchat.
The next called me a bunch around midnight and continues to do so, but I'm always at work until 1:30 am or so I can't talk. Her texting and other contact is weird and confusing. She is super short, sometimes cute, but mostly kind of a bitch. We've flirted about her sitting on me and stuff but there is just this tense aura or something idk. She completely ignores personal questions even about hobbies. Always calls me when she is "with friends" or when she is just "boored". I feel like she is just playing games. I still think she wants something because she tries to text me normally but can't hold a conversation.
Another girl seemed too nice to just seduce but she is talkative and fun. Always positive and easy to match. I just don't know how i would proceed with her. She's a few years younger so I think she may have different expectations of our interaction.
Haven't talked to girls since my ex like a year ago and I've been kind of fucked up since. I just smoke weed, study, work, and do my own hobbies and shit. I've lost some social skills and working on regaining confidence. I just lifted weights for the first time in a year (I like PH3 program with +- 10 lbs and a short body weight routine if you are curious).
Thanks for all the feedback by the way! I had a friend confirm he thinks my mind is like a 25 year old and doesn't believe I don't get women. But I definitely don't haha
[–]thoroughlythrown2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Being the "harmless guy" is something I struggle with. I let people "walk all over me" because I genuinely don't care most of the time. However, I'm also often afraid to stray from "safe" topics or express interest.
[–]standard_revolution 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
By saying that nice guys treat women gentlier than men do you think one should actually treat women better than men?
Serious question
Personally, I believe in treating the opposite sex with greater sensitivity and respect. This subreddit alone is proof that men and women don't immediately understand one another, and it takes a bit of thought and investigation to do so. So I think by treating the opposite sex a bit gentler than your own, you create a buffer that softens the divide set by a lack of understanding. Kind of like, I don't understand you and your motivations entirely, but I care about you, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and won't assume the worst. Like I said, I am a traditionalist.
[–]DirtyProjector 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Totally agree with this. Funny story - this came up for me just the other day with a group of men. I met 2 guys on a bus in Europe - father and son traveling around, father in his late 60s or 70s. This wise old man actually said to me women like assholes and guys who treat them like shit. I was shocked. Other two guys with us agreed. Women do not like being treated like shit. Some women may have low self confidence or a love map that attracts them to avoidant abusive men, but most women of value and women in general don't want a guy like that. If you have a man who is confident and has self work and is actually nice and kind (a killer combo) then almost any women would die for that.
Women like an emotional rollercoaster. If a man is nice, respectful, and strong, but then at some point does something it piss her off, she freaks out, and then calms down and stays with him, it's now further cemented in her brain that "This guy pissed her off but she still stuck with him." This makes a relationship strong than a simple, "He's always great" relationship.
[–]galactic_fury 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There has been a lot of material and discussion on seduction forums about the distinction b/w a "nice guy" and guys who think they are "nice". Most of the latter subconsciously believe in some kind of "trade": i.e. if they're nice, helpful etc. the woman will sleep with them. And when that doesn't happen, they get mad/disappointed/disenchanted.
The problem in this scenario (others have commented on this as well) is that its just not how things work. If a guy wants a sexual relationship with a girl, he should indicate that in the many many safe ways there are to do so, not assume it will just happen. But these ways do require a certain amount of courage and many of these nice guys don't have that courage. So they keep trying being nice guys, never learning how to genuinely and honestly communicate sexual intent.
[–]Vincent_Marcus 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think "polite guys" would better define your version of a "nice guy".
[–]TheIceReaver 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Essentially: Being nice includes being nice to yourself. Nurturing yourself, understanding yourself, striving to grow and thrive are all as fantastic as being someone who loves doing these things for others. It ultimately just feels good to be this way.
[–]Dima_de_Trebizond 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The Art of Manliness has a good article on this topic. TL;DR: No need use from being good if you don't have what it takes to be bad.
[–]EmberTraveler 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree
I'm a nice guy who is successful with ladies to a healthy extent. Normally a lady labels someone as "nice guy" if he's boring or doesn't take risks/doesn't have spark to him.
This lady called me nice but we hooked up, it's really like you said... there is a good chunk of pretend nice guys who are just nice to get social approval.
[–]SocietalEngineering 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
What do you mean, you don't believe in shit tests?
Meaning like you yourself don't conduct them, or you don't think that anyone does them?
Because they are done subconsciously - women mostly have no clue that they are even running them.
I myself don't conduct them. I put in a conscious effort not to.
[–]Orobek 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]SocietalEngineering -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's interesting. Do you not want to find an alpha? Or you're content with being with someone who is potentially a beta pretending to be an alpha?
[–]Orobek 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not sure about those labels, but I can find out if a man is the one I desire by methods that are less manipulative.
[–]AtZisa 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Been watching Jordan Peterson since I saw him on Joe Rogan's podcast. Highly recommend him to anyone trying to better themselves, romantically or otherwise.
Your points are spot on and are similar to what I've been trying to accomplish. I just don't feel right putting down someone who has been nothing but kind to me. At the same time though disrespect should never be tolerated, whether you're a man or a woman.
[–]crazy_greek_panda 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Because I haven't found something relating to the romantic sphere, can you spare a link? Thanks!
[–]AtZisa 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Not like dating advice, I'm talking about when he describes what people look for in the opposite sex. Also implementing a lot of what he says will just make you a more well rounded person, and in the process more attractive.
[–]crazy_greek_panda 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree and am looking for videos in the category of what you are describing but haven't found something interesting yet. If you happen to have a video you enjoyed I'd appreciate it, but I'll continue looking! Cheers
Thanks for the post and I completely agree with everything you said!
You mentioned Jordan Peterson and I was curious if you have any specific video/lecture in mind because I haven't found anything relevant. Thanks!
[–]Orobek 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I was thinking of this video when I posted: https://youtu.be/BhPnxmw4xNA
Cool thanks! Guess I'm enlisting to become a pirate then! ;)
[–]S3542U -5 points-4 points-3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Semantics.
/thread
[–][deleted] 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]_valtiel_ 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Jon snow almost got himself killed by showing off to khaleesi
[–]_Jake_The_Snake_ -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nearly sidebar material right here. I'd like to see something confronting nice guys in denial. Like a call to better themselves. Some guys will look at this and think, oh so I need to act more passive aggressively or more like a rude jerk who is just speaking his mind and asserting himself. Thats up to debate but I think going into that deeper will clear up some of the questions people have about how to act and react to others.
[+]Redsfan192 -6 points-5 points-4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Except most women in our generation don't like masculine guys at all. They prefer these weak, feminine men these days, and I've even met Generation X'ers, Baby Boomers, and the Silent Generation agree with me on this. I blame it on this whole "We're all the same" gender movement(Which isn't biologically true). So, I disagree with this, because of the simple fact a masculine man who stands up for himself is actually a turn-off for many MILLENNIAL women.
I'm one of the most masculine guys I know, and most women still pass me up for guys who are far weaker, and inferior than me. I look like the stereotypical jock based on appearance(6'3, 265lbs, muscle-bound, tan), and I still get ignored all the time. Maybe if I acted cowards I could get girls? Maybe if I worried about getting my shoes dirty, I could get girls?
Of course, most younger women often go for guys loaded with money too, but I won't get into that beast right now.
[–]throwaway12321qwerty3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Are you acting with indifference and an IDGAF attitude? Nice guys finish last. Have you read No more Mr. Nice Guy?
[–]midnight_toker22 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You sound bitter and resentful. That probably has a lot to do with your struggles.
[–]JustAlex69 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
truly "nice guys" dont call themselfs "nice guys" imo
[+]ajcivitarese -22 points-21 points-20 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nothing sedditors didn't already know.
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