DAE object to the mainstream gaming media's characterization of the core gaming community being hostile to women?

ARedditorCalledQuest · 2012-11-06T19:08:51+00:00

Psht. The "core" gaming community is hostile to everybody. Don't like it? Don't play with them. I stay out of places and organizations that have a reputation for behavior that I don't like. It's not hard.

2012-11-06T18:46:37+00:00

If you let gendered insults get to you, they'll be more likely to be used against you. It's as simple as that. If you can't take the nature of that community, then you just don't belong in that community.

Stratisphear · 2012-11-06T18:28:48+00:00

Women who demand special treatment will complain about this stuff. Women who don't think their gender has anything to do with how they play really don't. They'll say "I'm being discriminated against because one of them told me to get back in the kitchen!". Meanwhile, every guy is being called a "nigger faggot" and being told they'll be raped by a horse. I've found that women who try to use their femininity for special treatment will be generally hated on (as they should be) but women who play to play will be treated like everyone else. In COD, they're being insulted. In Tf2, they're not. It depends on the community, but overall, they're demanding special treatment.

2012-11-07T01:04:53+00:00

As of 2011, about 40% of gamers are women.

I think the problem is that most men don't just do regular gaming trash talk and actions to women, they go overboard on it. A lot of the younger guys make sexual comments, flirt, stuff like that. Girls get bonuses from other players, but they also have to put up with degradation.

I remember playing some MMO like WoW years ago and making my character a female so that I would get more items from other players. The gender roles in videogames is frightening, especially since the marketing is aimed towards men, yet a large percent of the gamers are women.

jolly_mcfats · 2012-11-06T20:16:00+00:00

I think a lot of the women who write these articles are more interested with rooting out and exposing "toxic masculinity" than they are the video games they profess to be interested in. There is a lot of very useful examination of female hypoagency that is resulting from this latest crusade.

But I also always feel obliged to say that I don't really like my gender and hobby being coopted by fps trolls. Tea-bagging and shouting "nigger faggot" is not the quintessentially male / gamer activity that these posts make it out to be. It's a subset to be tolerated, but not the epitome of masculinity that both radical feminists and their targets make it out to be. Tolerance of aberrant behavior is maybe a quintessentially male nerd thing- which probably looks a lot like endorsement of it to the people doing it or being offended by it.

blueoak9 · 2012-11-06T20:07:41+00:00

"When men refuse to bend over backwards to put these women on a pedestal to accommodate their wishes, the women label it as sexism. A textbook example of the female hypoagency."

And of hypoagency as female privielge.

Hamakua · 2012-11-06T20:12:20+00:00

I don't just object, I strongly object. It's is a systematic invasion of yet another "space" they insist is a "male space", when in actuality it simply appeals more to boys/guys/men, even though Women are more than welcome.

The first HWL mage on Crushridge was a girl /salute Jenae. She was treated no differently than the "he"'s and we were all treated and treated others dynamically the same. It's about knowing your company and context.

I have shit-talked with the best of them using language that would make /r/ImGoingToHellForThis blush.

Gamer spaces have always had a male bias but were rarely seen as a "guys only" space and the point of the apparently inflammatory speech has little to nothing to do with oppressing or purposely offending women.

This whole "clean up gaming spaces" thing is the crest of a wave that started with the annoyance with "Girl Gamers" (not to be confused with gamers who happen to be girls). They are easy to spot, youtube search any popular game and look on the right side of suggested videos and they tend to be the thumbnail displaying cleavage below a pretty face.

"Girl Gamers" aren't necessarily the force behind the new push to "clean up gaming" - Feminism is most certainly that. "Look everyone, new bogymen and a vapid cause to rally behind to strengthen our claim that we are still needed and still relevant". -But "Girl Gamers" were the Canary in the Coal mine that was trying to warn us this was coming. (As "US" I mean gamers, no MRA's, I am speaking as a pretty hardcore gamer right now).

What REALLY brought feminism into the gaming sphere as another police state was $$$. It's always money, because online monetization of gaming as a full time entertainment job is becoming more valid and more popular, so does the interest from interest groups.

TL;DR: Feminism came because there was money in the water of gaming, but aren't here to catch the money, instead they are here to point at those who are as yet another example of MISOGYNY!!1!!1!

nlakes · 2012-11-06T23:22:41+00:00

In my experience, the online gaming community has a very bigoted minority that hates everyone that's not them. Especially on games like COD.

Whilst misogynistic is an accurate description of these people, it does not mean the barriers to entry are any higher for women than for any other man. Everyone will get harassed and abused online. I once threw all my grenades on Halo and ruined some 14 yos kill-streak, I was abused the whole game and inbox stalked for months by this per-pubesent child with insults ranging from "nigger-faggot" to "pedophile".

I would say general harassment is the main problem for online gaming. Pretending it's worse for women is just not true. I don't know anyone, man or woman, who hasn't been abused during an online game.

TheyCalledMeMad · 2012-11-06T19:36:56+00:00

Most definitely. I often get the impression when I hear/see people talk about the topic that they are using the repetition of this idea (that the gaming community is largely hostile to women) as evidence that it is true. Very much "everyone knows that [x]" type of logic.

ErasmusMRA · 2012-11-06T18:11:31+00:00

I worry more about their screeching having an effect on game development. Now game developers will have to worry whether female characters are "underrepresented" or "stereotyped" or "objectified" in their games, whatever the fuck that means.

a_weed_wizard · 2012-11-06T19:35:50+00:00

It's a highly competitive arena that does not give women the kind of special treatment they are used to in regular life so the women who think they are entitled to this complain about it.

johnmarkley · 2012-11-07T00:08:02+00:00

Abusive behavior in online games is like a lot of things that get labeled “misogyny”- it's been common for a long time, but it's only when it starts affecting large numbers of women that it becomes a problem people get upset about.

AndIMustScream · 2012-11-07T01:12:30+00:00

47% of Gamers (Core) are female, cant for the life of me remember the souce, but it was quoted on /r/Halo in retaliation to a Fox artical calling all gamers stupid and evil etc etc, so in reality gaming is uni sex in terms of audience almost, this whole issue is about 20 years out of date, and just stems to the nerds can't be with women rubbish. Also another stat from Reddit was most gamers of a core to hard core level were 30-36 years old. Again the idea of the 12yr old trash talk and the constant stream of offensive language is over played and rarly happens and no one listens, and if they do, wow words, shit dont break anything. This whole issue is 100% fresh organic media bullshit trying to get the gaming community divided and falling for its own stereotype. There is allways the mute button, which (On Xbox 360) Is really easy to use.

Regardless of sex if you can't take it don't go there. People will use sex race and age to stirr up outrage, gaming doesn't need this. Online we are all unkown, so you should expect crazy shit happening. Some people just get offended easily and use any factor as an excuse.

I am offended by your priviledge level. It's over 9000.Douche.

DerpaNerb · 2012-11-07T05:50:17+00:00

The only thing people need to realize, is that caring about sexism against women more so than other forms of discrimination is discrimination (sexism) itself.

It's one thing to say "all harassment is bad, maybe we should lighten up".

It's a completely different thing to say "hey, let's start treating girls nicer".

Potentially stopping discrimination is never justification for introducing more yourself.

robofunk · 2012-11-06T20:21:36+00:00

If you haven't actually heard what was actually said at that Street Fighter tournament months back I would take a second look. IIRC the girl herself didn't call out the harraser but another teammate or commentator of the event. It is not mensrights to be a fucking asshole to people at a sponsored event. I doubt her contract stipulated she get shit on daily with personal attacks. I agree on a certain level however and we should call women faggots like everyone else and call it a day.

pundemic · 2012-11-07T00:32:29+00:00

I did a podcast about this topic with my girlfriend because I'm an avid gamer, and she's an avid feminist. It was interesting to see her perspective in that she believes there's an impetus to create a welcoming environment to women within the gaming community. My point was that if you are an outsider to a community, you don't get special dispensation to demand that everyone change around you. However, that doesn't give people an excuse to be assholes-- it's a tough balance to find and I'm not sure what possible solutions there are, or if they're even needed.

If you're interested the link to the podcast is here: http://translatedpotatosalad.libsyn.com/video-games-tigers-and-professors-oh-my

Umedark · 2012-11-07T08:26:12+00:00

Something tells me if I go into a women only gym I don't think it would end well for me. So why do women think they can enter a well established community and just be welcomed in open arms? Not only that why do they think they can just change the environment of the system, getting rid of the competitiveness is a prime example. They did it in schools and it completely flopped, how do you think video games will do? Yes female characters are ridiculously stereotypical. But male characters are not much better. We just need to wait for the industry to mature, like Cinema did 80 years ago.

2012-11-06T22:40:59+00:00

... Really? Because I can't count the amount of times, that I've heard people describe women in games as attention whores, even though they didn't do anything attentionseeking whatsover. I've also heard, that women receive far more PM's than guys do, and far from all of them are flattering.

What is this great issue with women in games anyway?

ghebert001 · 2012-11-06T20:23:45+00:00

It would be the same as a bunch of guys crashing a girl's night out at the male strip club and complaining that there aren't any female strippers.

Some girls just can't stand the idea of men not being in utter misery whilst not in their presence.

sssttttffffuuuuu · 2012-11-06T21:56:31+00:00

The core of gaming communities is hostile to women.

And for good reason.

The core gaming communities interactions with women and girls within gaming either go

immam grrrlll xxxDDD pay attenntion to meeeee!!1 lol

Or

Even though women are a minority in this group we're going to enforce women specific special treatment rules for that minority demographic, and all of you men can either like it or gtfo.

It doesn't help that alot of these "core gamers" tend to be introverts whose rl social interactions with women go negative because of the general shallowness of women.

Great example of the last type of interaction, the perm-a-ban halo 4 said they will use if they think you were being sexist.

Which given that its a policy instituted after feminists joined the dev team its safe to say that sexism flows one way in their minds, and can't comprehend the irony of the sexist hypoagency that is their new rules.

TL;DR: women in "core gaming" are either attention whores, or exercising hypoagency like its going out of style, a rare few like normal people don't give a fuck, and know they're in the play pen of a mostly male community.

Edit: lol OP I didn't actually read your post before commenting, you hit the nail on the head, good to know someone else is also on the same wavelength.

SarahC · 2012-11-07T02:21:37+00:00

SRS troll?

There's a lot of trash-talk, proving of one's worth, showing dominance over others, etc.

Nothing makes me feel more like a man than proving my own worth by trash talking other men to show dominance :-/

I'm more insulted by that than any claim a woman could make. And it's not even that I think it's untrue. I just don't want to be judged under the same stereotype as these common dickheads.

AloysiusC · 2012-11-06T21:57:07+00:00

What do you mean by the "core" gaming community? Because gaming, in general.. women play a big role in numbers. Something like 43%.

Human_Monkey · 2012-11-06T18:08:18+00:00

Agreed!!

Magrias · 2012-11-07T03:29:22+00:00

This is interesting. This "core gaming experience" or having to trash-talk and show dominance is rubbish. You know where that happens? Halo, Call of Duty... mostly just FPSs available on the 360, and sometimes PS3. Why? Because consoles, 360 especially, are easily accessible to young teenagers. The parents don't want to spend $1000 on a PC for the sole purpose of letting their kid play games, so they get a console, which covers all their kids. Then you have 14-year-old boys going through puberty and school, dealing with the myriad of issues everyone faces for 4 years, while also being exposed to a community that has selectively bred a-holes who can't understand the idea of someone being on the same level as them, and have to make an excuse or insult for everything. It's a deadly brew.
Yes, you still get trash talk in other games. But that's not "the community", it's a selective few vocal dicks, hated by the majority who just want to play a damn game.

What "women" get harassed for is usually pretending to be interested for attention or money. People who cosplay as a character when their extent of gaming knowledge is "Mario!", for example. Guys aren't attacked nearly as much, simply because they have no reason to pretend to be interested. Women do, because gaming is aimed primarily at guys.

Let's be honest: Gaming as a hobby is not particularly interested in women. Hear me out here. Developers and advertisers aim their products at men, because traditionally, they are the people who buy their games. This isn't just because they've got a clear market that's proven itself, it's also because "female-oriented gaming" is more-or-less an unkown area. We've got games aimed at guys, games aimed at everyone, and games aimed at kids. If you can give me a game that was specifically aimed at more mature female gamers, and successfully pulled it off, I'll gladly admit we're headed in that direction and all we need is time. Until someone figures out what to make, though, gaming will be a male-focussed hobby.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2012-11-07T10:46:55+00:00

Whilst I'm not a fan of the competitive core-gaming culture (I prefer single player gaming, narrative, atmosphere, etc), I agree that far too many women wish to see the culture policed to conform to their cultural preferences.

Would I call the culture hostile to women specifically (i.e. targeting women for being women)? Not so much. I think that the culture, being so infatuated with dominance, is basically hostile to everyone. There is, however, a small amount of sexism/gendered insults/etc lobbed at women by the immature brats.

But, and here's the rub, the small amount of sexism is interpreted alongside the large amount of generalized hostility and "package-dealt" together. Thus, a generalized brutality with occasional instances of sexism is inaccurately seen as a fundamentally, systemically sexist culture (by "sexist" here I mean motivated by animus against females per se).

This isn't an excuse for the occasional instances of sexism. Comments to female gamers like "get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich" are quite frankly immature and detestable.

But I still think it is an error to think that ALL hostilities experienced by a female gamer are on account of her gender.

That said, I do think that women have the right to complain about seeing no portrayals of women that they can identify with. I (a dude) complain regularly about the lack of fictional characters I can identify with. However, equating the lack of identifiable fictional characters with animus against one's sex seems to be stretching things.

arch4non · 2012-11-07T11:22:03+00:00

Well, look at it like this. The vast majority of popular mainstream games are not made for kids so you've got everyone from 8 to 80 playing grim and "mature" titles. The kind of kids playing those online just have bad manners and usually don't know any better, blame their parents. As for the men who are little older they're probably resentful for retaining their virginity and either bash women because they know they won't have sex or white knight women because they don't know they wont have sex.

While I don't really like it, gamers definitely are hostile towards women. Though, it's not entirely the fault of men either. Women who call themselves girl gamers, in that order, who put the fact that they're a girl before they're a gamer are not helping. Using your natural assets to increase your viewers is also something which makes men resentful.

Reaperdude97 · 2012-11-07T13:41:53+00:00

Gonna crosspost to/r/ gaming later. You make a good point.

2012-11-07T14:03:51+00:00

Excellent point. Another observation to add may be that, when trash talking, people tend to go for the things that stand out the most. What makes them different from the mainstream. For women, it's the fact that they're women. Throw someone with a lisp in there, or someone who speaks terrible English, and I guarantee it becomes ammunition for trash talk. Overweight people, someone vocally effeminate, anything that stands out about them becomes the focal point of trash talk.

ExpendableOne · 2012-11-07T14:53:41+00:00

I object to it because women, both inside and outside of the core gaming community, are absolutely just as hostile, demeaning and apathetic towards men in the gaming community, if not more so. Not only do they also trash talk men(much in the same way that men trash talk other men) but they can also often do it in a much more personal or emotional way as well. Hell, considering general social climates within gaming, or male gamers, you could even say that those women are in a position of sexual power/privilege over those men, which they often do in fact abuse, without care or accountability, whether for personal gain or just to hurt other male gamers.

I also object to it because it's efforts from outside parties who want to change the way people, or more specifically just men, inside that community behave in a competitive environment, even though they themselves have really little to no interest in that competition or in being part of that community. No matter how nice and catering to women men in that community could be, they would still be labelled as meek, men-child, gross, nerdy, unattractive, virgins, losers or neckbeards by women like these, and they still would be perpetually disregarded by women(in or out of the gaming community) for their dedication/devotion to gaming. Rather than trying to be a part of it, and changing things by example, increasing their numbers(both increasing their influence and removing the "shock value" of women in gaming) or positive reinforcement, women who are a part of the gaming community would rather just complain from afar.

The reality of it is that women in gaming is riddled with misandry, and "eww boys are gross/dumb/annying; girls are the best" mentality. It's full of "girls have to stick together and exclude boys at every opportunity, irregardless of what type of people they are". Even on reddit, communities like girlgamers are a testament to just how incredibly self-isolating, biased, sexist and biggoted women in gaming can be. Yes, there are certainly misogynist men in the gaming community, and some even get rewarded for it(generally public figures, who's job it is to entertain or amuse audiences; just like any other stand-up comedian or public figure), but it is otherwise actually quite egalitarian otherwise, if not even perhaps too catering towards women. 99.99% of men in gaming love women, if not even desperate for female attention, and either want to play with women or open to playing with players at their level irregardless of gender.

2012-11-09T04:29:18+00:00

I've been called a faggot during a game of Call of Duty, Where's my recourse?

a_weed_wizard · 2012-11-06T18:37:48+00:00

[permanently deleted]

HornsandaHalo · 2012-11-06T23:35:43+00:00

You have hit the nail on the head in my books. Really. Also if your arguing with someone and its a guy you would say "shut the fuck up faggot." if its a girl you will more likely get "shut the fuck up bitch". Now to me i dont find that sexist at all, but woman gamers are quick to call, his trlling me to shut up because im a girl. which really, gender would not really make a difference on the matter.

kragmoor · 2012-11-07T02:37:02+00:00

here's my piece. i play a lot of games. the only time a girl ever gets any shit from anyone is when she starts getting off on the fact that she is a girl and decides to jam it down everyones throat, if that isn't happening then nobody gives two shits

actanonverba8 · 2012-11-07T04:41:26+00:00

"These women want to be treated, not as equals, but rather as VIP guests who are so important that everybody has to regulate their behaviour around them, the same way that everybody acts polite and proper around the Queen of England."

Excellent statement.

TheRealPariah · 2012-11-07T06:07:10+00:00

Interestingly, the women are upset because many participants are not sexist. They don't make special room for women because they're women. Gaming is a male place, so classically, women want to invade it and force the participants to treat them differently than others.

FaasnuDovah · 2012-11-06T20:37:07+00:00

agreed, insults and shit are common, but for women who are constantly sent messages of shit because they are girls is wrong. The way I see it, keep it in the chat, Aint no one got time for demeaning personal messages

teler9000 · 2012-11-07T03:36:05+00:00

Its absolute nonsense to say that gamers hate women in particular. In League of Legends, a game which i have spent easily 2 months of game time in, I have NEVER had someone bring gender up when trash talking. And about 1/10 games will have heavy amounts of trash talking because of the way the game is structured. The insults are NEVER about gender in LoL, they are usually something like "Uninstall you fucking useless scrub" or "You got lucky there you punk bitch, I aint even mad because we will win this game anyways." The trash talking is never about gender because there is no VOIP so you cant tell from a persons voice their gender. Any seemingly female specific bullying in games that do have VOIP would have occured anyways if the player was male. The female specific insults are added for additional affect.

drinkthebleach · 2012-11-07T05:09:24+00:00

It's like saying the core rugby community is violent.

Disillusi0n · 2012-11-06T22:42:54+00:00

In general women get offended easily. Simple as that. It's especially true for feminist-minded women who don't have a sense of humor anyway. Women don't talk shit to eachother like guys do so when it happens they can't handle it. They think it's sexism, misogyny, oppression, whatever. It isn't. It's just trash talk in a competitive male environment.

To me, getting trash talked is either a sign that I need to step my game up or a sign that I'm doing something right. I actually don't do much trash talking at all but I do love getting messages calling me a "nigger faggot camper bitch" because then I get to say "U MAD BRO?"

Sticks and stones, water off a ducks ass, and so on and so forth...

rightsbot · 2012-11-06T18:02:18+00:00

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2012-11-07T01:54:16+00:00

But if you're getting a lot of shit in an online video game....so what?

"People are being assholes in an online video game!!!" So fucking what?

What's the harm?

Blahblahblahinternet · 2012-11-07T03:33:33+00:00

NPR did an interview on that recently and interviewed the woman who sort of started bring this subject to light, and honestly, all the behavior she described is also experienced by men who game online. People just talk shit. Get over it.

somersetbingo · 2012-11-07T05:37:14+00:00

I don't object, it's probably true.

AloysiusC · 2012-11-07T05:56:25+00:00

Exactly this is what it is. Women are often shielded from trash-talk in real life and so, when they encounter it as equals, they have no idea what it really is and mistakenly interpret it as hostility directed specifically at them. The second problem is the assumption that a community has to adapt to every individual woman's comfort rather than her adapting to the community. This is btw always what happens when you start accommodating such women - eventually it's just a big women's club.

The gaming community is only special because it's not yet been corrupted as have pretty much all other communities. So it stands out in this way.

contraterrene · 2012-11-07T01:42:13+00:00

Although I am not particularly enchanted with shit-talk, I think I have a solution that would suit both sides.

The womym want civility....

The boyz want politically incorrect escapisim....

Play in two different groups. End. Of. Discussion.

ohreally101 · 2012-11-06T19:33:38+00:00

You can try to make the bullshit argument that "core gamers r equally mean to everyone" but thats simply. not. true.

Most of what gamers say hurts women and gay people specifically. IMO, the most common slurs and taunts are "i'm going to rape you/you got raped/rape the shit out of them/ RAAAAPE" or the word "faggot".

So, to say that "core gamers" treat everyone equally, while they deploy insults that are demeaning especially to gay people and women.... To claim that 'women only want special treatment', while you're simultaneously giving women treatment so shitty it warrants being called special already, its dishonest.

I HATE this current culture where all gamers feel entitled and justified in using the implication that someone is gay as an insult, and I hate that you defend them.

typhonblue · 2012-11-07T05:12:08+00:00

It's hostile to hypoagents.

the_icebear · 2012-11-07T06:19:58+00:00

I answered to this type of question before but I think it bears repeating. Video games are an inherently competitive medium. As goes with the territory, displays of dominance are not only common, but I would venture to say necessary from an anthropological and psychological perspective.

However, the exact forms that these competitive traits are expressing themselves through are often harmful in ways that should not be condoned. Use of terms such as "nigger", "faggot", or "bitch" should not be tolerated because they are racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. but more importantly they actively detract from the purpose of trash talking: the expression of dominance and skill over one's opponent.

It would be ok to tell someone "you suck" because it implies dominance over another, albeit in a sexual manner. (ever since the acceptance of homosexual society as a cultural norm, some women have failed to realize they no longer hold a near-monopoly on being the sexually submissive partner)

Ultimately I know my entire response here is just summoning the srs minions, but I'm trying to make the distinction between trash talk that is being used as apart of a cultural rite-of-passage (which considering the alternatives, I'd much prefer today's youths playing CoD all day to ritual sacrifices and thunderdome scenarios) and trash talk that is needlessly derogatory and encouraging of phobias we should be moving past as a civilization.

P.S. I also could just be batshit crazy. My ideas on this matter are still very nebulous even in my own head.