Off-Topic Discussion of the Week: Transexuals (23 June 2018)

[deleted] · 2018-06-30T03:02:08+00:00

Transsexuals affront me on an aesthetic level and in the sense of being able to grasp and discuss reality. They cannot be allowed.

Gravel_Roads · 2018-06-29T16:26:36+00:00

As a transgender person I’m assuming this is one of those “actual trans people need not apply” posts. Because I’d start with pointing out that “transsexual” is about as outdated as calling a black person “negro”. Transgender is the preferred word.

We’re about as normal as everyone else. We aren’t “funky”. There are crazies in every demographic and the trans/queer community is no different. You’ve probably been around trans people many times in your life and never even known because they don’t all come in shades of “drag queen”. Trans men and trans women on the street wear the same clothes y’all do.

sak- · 2018-06-28T23:46:44+00:00

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/

petrichordium · 2018-06-28T23:26:17+00:00

I believe transgender individuals (who innately feel born in the "wrong" biological body due to brain chemistry) exist and are deserving of AT LEAST passive support in a civilized society. That support can be literally as simple as "live and let live."

I ALSO believe that there are many people who are dissatisfied with the current state of gender politics and thus gravitate toward transgender, non-binary, "otherwise funky" identities / movements for reasons that less clear cut in terms of brain chemistry. I believe this people are also deserving of passive support.

I believe that people who DON'T view these individuals as "real" identities are entitled to that belief in a civilized society, and that some of them are going to be assholes about it, and that we can't do TOO MUCH about that. But that those people should recognize that the tide is turning against them and they should accept the kickback when they get tacky.

I believe that some of both innate transgender individuals and "grey gender" individuals are annoying (a similar percentage as just the normal human population) and that those people are going to take up more of the highlight in our "loudest and most extreme voice wins" discourse.

I believe both the anti-trans assholes and the anime twitter trans/NB crowd take up way more air in our current conversation than the topic merits on a population-weighted basis. I also believe that SOME (not all or even most) trans/NB people are too insistent on receiving forms of ACTIVE support from people who are not equipped to give it to them. IE- if you are still exploring and figuring out how to live as YOURSELF in our culture, you should have a realistic (and maybe cynical) expectation of how much you can depend on PERFECT STRANGERS to help you FEEL your self-identity.

But finally, I also believe most trans people would ALSO LOVE to not have this topic be a major thing and want nothing more than to fade into the woodwork of our highly gender obsessed culture, but as the gender they feel themselves to be. (I'll grant that a larger portion of NBs are attention hogs, but then again many of them want to tear down our conceptions of gender. Moreover, the hysteria that normal cis/straight people sometimes react to this speaks volumes about how crazy we ALL Are about this.)

Finally finally, I believe bigots and various kinds of squirrel chasers (TERFs, etc) are a larger problem than trans people of even the most obnoxious varieties. I believe plain old indifference is the best and most humane response that gender critical / trans skeptical people should have.

Thus I'm on Team Trans.

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-06-28T18:43:42+00:00

I despise them. They should all be placed on strong anti-psychotics to treat their delusions.

Jammerly1 · 2018-06-29T16:29:39+00:00

M to F trans are mostly mental and think they can compete for feminity.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8ufdka/witholding_sex_in_a_relationship/e1fcocs/

cxj · 2018-06-27T01:58:50+00:00

I don’t care what people do but don’t boss me around. I’m not using your retarded pronouns but I’ll call you whatever name u want.

They can get married, come into the men’s room etc. idk about the military though, I guess they can hash that one out along with the women in infantry.

I’m not gonna fuck them either and DGAF if it’s “transphobic”

N0blesse0blige · 2018-06-26T23:31:34+00:00

Personally I don't have any problem with trans people whatsoever. I don't care which bathroom they go to in a restaurant (then again I don't have a problem with unisex bathrooms), I don't care which gender they are attracted to (and I don't care if they try to date cis-people, I personally wouldn't date most mtf-trans-women but that's more due to the fact that plastic surgery just isn't quite there yet in most cases). "Whipping out a dick" as someone here so "eloquently" described it is obviously a no-go, not because they are trans but simply because it is a very disrespectful thing to do (misleading someone about their gender that is) but I honestly doubt that happens a lot outside of Bangkok.

But ... I don't think that it's not a mental illness. If depression, which is basically just feeling sad or autism (which is very much a measurable difference in the persons DNA) are mental illnesses, then how is it not a mental illness if someone doesn't feel like the sex they are, biologically speaking. I get why they don't like that it's being called a mental illness but at the end of the day that's exactly what it is - the symptoms are exactly in line with it. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to accomodate them. If it makes them better I am all for having their passports say that they are male/female when they were born as female/male but it would still be intelluctually dishonest.

And maybe that's my perspective (of someone who is male and at times very unhappy about the things that means) speaking, but the fact that there's so many more MtFs than FtMs makes me wonder if there isn't some kind of societal/social factor to being trans.

AllahHatesFags · 2018-06-26T14:32:20+00:00

I think they are mentally ill. Normally I wouldn't care, but these whackjobs are demanding to be treated like they are born in the other gender. I'm sorry I don't find a man who has taken hormones and surgically mutilated himself to be as attractive as an actual woman. I think if you are about to fuck a "woman" and she whips out a dick then an ass-kicking is in order. If that makes me a "bigot" or a "transphobe" then fuck it and fuck you.

YesICanWhoopUrAss · 2018-06-25T23:33:26+00:00

Wrote a paper in my senior year in HS about out these types would be out here riding the Civil Rights Movement's coattails into the mud. Nothing long, just and impromptu essay she had us write. I wasn't wrong.

Do what you want. I don't know about the rest of these foolish humans, but I know a man (who is mimicking a woman) when I see one. Please don't accuse me of some new typa "-ism" that ain't even came out yet because I prefer actual women, which trans persons aren't. TwoX chromosomes, and ovaries with all the eggs you'll ever bear is the most basic of standards.

And we until we have a REAL discussion on this Atrazine and all manners of chemicals with "-estrogens" in 'em, I don't wanna hear nothin about how you were born.

wekacuck · 2018-06-25T22:53:34+00:00

What are your views on transexuals, transvestites, non-gender binary, or people who are otherwise funky ?

I'm pretty live and let live. The only time it's ever bothered me are bizarre cases when I've ended up attacked for seemingly unrelated things. Like discussions about the lack of need for male circumcision because it's apparently related to whether reassignment surgery should be allowed if you make certain anti-circumcision arguments. I don't know whether those sorts are trolls though. Mostly I think "people who are otherwise funky" are under a lot of stress so I'm maybe forgiving because I assume there's a lot of co-morbidity due to not "fitting in". My forgiveness can wear thin for incel-like violence though.

Is it innate or a choice ? Genetic or Environmental ? Part of the normal variation of humankind ? Or an aberrant oddity ?

I don't know. On the one hand I can see that there are genetic mechanisms that would lead to different sorts of brain flavors (but I think it's reasonable to assume any sort of gendered brain is guaranteed to become unsynchronized with the genitals) and I also think any link between personality and genitals is cultural/environmental. At an evolutionary scale it just seems far to brittle for an organism to encode expectations of what genitals look or feel like.

Should transexuals be supported ? Vilified ? Ignored ? Made to wear pink triangles ?

I don't think they should be singled out for any reason. IMHO ciswomen who have a problem with transwomen in their bathrooms and changing rooms are being silly and should be forced to lose access to women's bathrooms and use unisex/men's bathrooms.

Should sex change operations be performed free of charge by your countries universal healthcare system* ?

If it's deemed medically necessary. I don't know how universal healthcare systems deal with elective surgery. For example cosmetic breast enhancement should probably be out-of-pocket but I don't have a problem with post-mastectomy reconstructive surgery being covered. Anyway I think universal healthcare is something for bureaucrats to decide who consider broader pictures of things. So maybe sex change surgery for trans reduces overall costs or improves outcomes. It's not really something for me to have an opinion about. Don't care.

Theseus_The_King · 2018-06-25T18:34:14+00:00

It’s ok to be trans. If you are transgendered and you feel transition is the best option, go for it. If you feel you want to feel comfortable in your birth gender and that’s what you want, go for it too. Being trans is not a disease but the dysphoria is, the dysphoria is what causes distress.

I do think non binary genders do exist, nature tends to be more fond of spectra than binaries, and since many cultures have understandings of gender beyond male and female there has to be some room in the middle. But, I think non binary is only applicable if you aren’t comfortable being thought of as either a man or a woman, there needs to be dysphoria. I don’t think that anything and everything is a gender, and that SJWs confuse personality for gender. But I think the right is too restrictive in their understanding of gender and it feels odd that most things regarding human biology would be spectra but not gender. There are more genders than penis and vagina, but toaster is not a gender.

As for pronouns, he/she/they. I will not recognize anything else. Those work the best in the English language so we should adopt a standard.

[deleted] · 2018-06-24T23:55:31+00:00

/u/drewiepoodle, I think you could educate us a bit here.

That aside, someone on r/asktransgender posted this wall of links about a year ago, it might answer any questions you guys have on the effectiveness of transitioning.

Edit: I'm a straight dude who also happens to be a zoology geek. /r/natureismetal FTW!

sadomasochrist · 2018-06-24T14:48:22+00:00

Serious reply.

Gross, normal people shouldn't have to deal with your mental issues. Tragic, but TMI.

I shouldn't even be aware it's a thing much less be constantly exposed to concepts deep within their subculture.

I joked about this a decade before it happened and can't believe we talk about this as a social issue when they make up a fraction of 1% of the population.

Not to mention they kill themselves anyways after transitioning. We're letting the inmates run the asylum.

MindTheFuture · 2018-06-24T11:58:57+00:00

Good for them, do what you think is right, we got ya.

Whatever the reasons, it is a valid real phenomena, harmless for the rest of the population and irrelevant to the society at large, other than that happier people make better workers.

Kinda boring tbh, but still the topic somehow gets people all worked up. I mean, even if all of the people who would be transm do it now that whole phenomena is well known, overall effect would be marginal. Like now that no-one gives a shit about bi and gays who go for same sex relationships instead of keeping up appearances, their numbers are miniscule compared to traditional relationships.

Ascimator · 2018-06-24T09:23:40+00:00

MtF and FtM are ok. Enbies are 99,99% confused. Just pick any pronoun and stick with it (a real one please). You can be a rainbow of attack helicopters and soul fusions inside, but nobody else should be obliged to remember any of that.

Some of it is innate and detectable, usually since birth and throughout puberty. Some people, though, simply find joy in roleplaying. That's fine. From what I know, most doctors in the trans area are competent enough to actually make sure the person needs it before turning the hormone pump on.

If my country, as it is right now, not only accepted that it's ok to be trans, but gave them free SRS, I would assume I'm dreaming. That being said, my universal healthcare already does a lot, and I'd rather have my tax money go towards operations for some 0,1% of people than certain other areas. Yes, I know that's not how taxes work.

I think trans people who do not come out to their partners before sex are committing sexual fraud, if there is such a thing.

TheGreasyPole · 2018-06-24T08:38:14+00:00

Cards on the table here...

One of our dear family friends is a F->M transexual. He made the transition shortly before I knew him, although some of the surgeries followed later, and so I only knew him identified as a man. He's now married to another family friend. A female he knew both pre/post transition who identifies and dated as a heterosexual.

I've never seen him as anything other than a man, for over 15 years now, albeit a short and a bit baby faced guy. He passes perfectly and he and his wife seem perfectly happy with the state of affairs. By all accounts he'd always been very unhappy as a female, and he seems very happy now.

I think that not identifying as your birth sex is an innate (but not genetic) attribute. And that the majority, perhaps the vast majority, of transexuals are in this position. There may be some younger teens who are "trying it on for size" without an innate drive, but I don't believe the majority of these stick with this for long or pay for and undergo the surgery.

Basically, my beliefs here are an outcome of my other RP/Evo-Psych/Neurological beliefs. Humans are conceived with default female brains that are then re-patterned to a male brain in the womb (providing you have a Y chromosome), early in life, and through puberty. Male and Female brains are therfore fundamentally different by their teens.

In my view transexuals are people where this switch of patterning has "gone wrong" within whatever brain module deals with "body image" and perhaps other modules as well (much as homosexuals are people where this patterning has "gone wrong" in whatever brain module deals with "attraction to a mate" and perhaps other modules as well).

I see nothing wrong with them having surgery to match their body to their mental image of it, providing they are restricted from doing so until legal majority (18+)... in order to make sure it's a long term/persistent issue for them and not subject to the sexual confusion of the early teen/puberty period.

I think most of the confused will have grown out of it by then, and will be unwilling to go through surgery at 19 that they may have wanted aged, say, 14-15.

If you've made it all the way to 18+ and you know you've always felt you are a woman/man ... probably for 5-8 years by that point... then thats persistent enough to be a permanent thing and can be dealt with by surgery (even surgery at UH expense).

wprtogh · 2018-06-24T07:06:35+00:00

Sex is a biological morphological trait. Gender is also biological, but the term describes a collection of correlated behavioral traits. Transexualism probably originated from a biological cause, but not deterministically (that is, there are probably biological features that can cause intractable gender dysphoria, a legitimate psychiatric condition, that may be best treated by transition).

It is important to note that I describe all of the above as traits, not identities. An identity is a chosen set of descriptors that one regards as of primary importance, as definitive. An identity can include all or none of one's sex, gender, or transexual conditions. What follows could be misread of you forget this crucial distinction.

Through history, social constructs have naturally arisen around these natural phenomena. Like marriage and courtship rituals and social roles. Some of these are positive, some negative. But the broader transgender/queer theory ideology is a synthetic social construct crafted for political aims.

Specifically the idea that the original phenomena - sex and gender and the gender dysphoria condition - are synthetic social constructs is an ideological assertion contradicted by the preponderance of both scientific and historical evidence. As is the assertion that all actual social constructs surrounding said phenomena are synthetic and/or maladaptive.

These ideas are rhetorical instruments invented by a cadre of radicals who would best be described as alienationists. They seek to normalize the experience of alienation common to sexual minorities by abolishing the positive normalized experiences of others. Which is very dark and deeply ironic. Most disturbingly, this ideology seeks to control people's expressions of identity by denying them the right to leave sex and gender out of it.

So I am perfectly accepting of transexual individuals while vehemently opposed to transfeminism and queer theory. And there is no contradiction in this.

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-06-24T04:48:27+00:00

Isn't it kind of contradictory if a RPer believes that transgender people are just mentally ill?

RP is all about men and women being different. Men have male brains and women have female brains.

Transgender people are like "I feel like I'm trapped in the wrong body" and brain scans have repeatedly shown that they are right

Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.

Transgender women are like "I was born male, but I have a female brain and thus like wearing dresses, having long hair and gossiping" and RPers are like "that's impossible. You are just mentally ill"

That's how I would expect a radical blank stateist to react.

hammerhaunts · 2018-06-24T02:40:47+00:00

They have really stupid theories about language

goatismycopilot · 2018-06-24T02:06:56+00:00

I do not think much about transexuals. I spend way more time thinking about dogs.

crackrocksteady7 · 2018-06-24T02:03:22+00:00

I follow what my religion teaches me; males are men, females are women. I refuse to open to any form of debate about this. Practising transgenderism is wrong.

I sympathize with anti-LGBT protesters; all it takes for evil to win is for good people to do nothing.

Edit: Not enuff downvotes, so I'll say it; Trannies are freaks and they disgust me.

ConfidentConifer · 2018-06-24T04:04:16+00:00

XY = male (and man), XX = female (and woman)

The infinitesimally tiny proportion of the population that has chromosomal abnormalities or other birth defects is just that - medically defective, and not some argument in favor of the validity of transgenderism. A kid who's born lacking legs isn't proof that humans aren't actually a bipedal species.

PhotosyntheticChad · 2018-06-24T01:01:17+00:00

I am a biological essentialist. Sex and gender are synonyms.

XY it’s a guy XX the female sex

Anything else is mental illness.

The evolutionary reason there are only two is because that’s the minimum number needed to reproduce with variation. More than two would present too much of a disadvantage to selection and die out.

I do not agree that people with gender dysphoria should be enabled, we do not enable schizophrenics by telling them that the voices are real. If a transgender person can be ‘cured’ by giving them huge doses of the opposite genders hormones, then they can also be cured by giving them huge doses of their actual genders hormones.

No matter how much acceptance society affords these mentally ill people, their biological gender is fixed by their genetics. All the shit about ‘not conforming to established gender roles’ is exactly that, shit. It doesn’t make a difference if you don’t subscribe to the ‘social stereotype’ of a woman (who decided that anyway?, it doesn’t exist), it doesn’t make you a man. Gender isn’t a social construct, the idea that gender is a social construct is a social construct.

There are of course exceptions such as hermaphrodites but these are incredibly rare, and clearly not evolutionary viable since they’re infertile.

As for pronouns, I’m happy to use whatever you want as long as you inform me before hand. Don’t just assume I know, especially if you look like your biological gender. I do not agree with any legislation that criminalises using incorrect pronouns, that’s just lunacy.

a-WaltzingMatilda · 2018-06-24T00:52:11+00:00

Erm, they’re called ‘People of Gender’.

hiso_hiso · 2018-06-25T04:18:06+00:00

i don’t really care, and for the most part, don’t understand why people bother getting up in arms about it. they do their thing, you do yours, everyone is happy. i cannot think of any significant ways that it has affected my life, positively or negatively, and i imagine it is much the same for everyone else.

meomeowmeoww · 2018-06-24T07:20:10+00:00

They are mentally ill.

When I was in highschool there was a kid that thought he was a Naruto character but no one was calling them their Chinese character names or anything.

abaxeron · 2018-06-24T00:04:45+00:00

What are your views on transexuals, transvestites, non-gender binary, or people who are otherwise funky ?

Don't use potent cologne, perform like a normal person in professional environment, and I won't have a problem with you even if you're literally Dakota Hendrix. My native language allows quite complete level of communication without usage of gendered pronouns at all.

Is it innate or a choice ?

If a woman likes to lift weights, wear business suits, shave head, listen to heavy metal, ride bikes and have sex with other women, is terrified of the thought of having babies, and hates her own boobs, it probably has to do with certain genetic predispositions. But no-one is innately programmed to continuously pump themselves with body-altering synthetic chemicals simply because 100 years ago these synthetic chemicals did not exist.

Part of the normal variation of humankind ?

Everything is part of the normal variation of humankind if humans do it, including genocidal warfare.

Should transexuals be supported ? Vilified ? Ignored ?

No idea. My bad but here in my Eastern European outskirts I have never seen an open trans person in any environment where I'd have to continuously interact with them. They say there's a trans woman working in a local barber shop, but I trim my own hair since getting back from the military. As a STEM major, I almost always end up in workplaces dominated by cis men.

Made to wear pink triangles ?

I'd rather prefer people with natal functioning XX-chromosomed vaginas adopting furry triangles as their symbol, that would at least be funny.

Should sex change operations be performed free of charge by your countries universal healthcare system* ?

If the only basis for this is that otherwise they'll kill themselves, then the same logic applies for abolition of no-fault divorce.

[deleted] · 2018-06-24T00:04:00+00:00

Each to their own. I support them and use their pronouns. Other people's gender identity isn't my business

carefreevermillion · 2018-06-23T23:44:02+00:00

As a dog gal I want to be represented. I'm offended and triggered. /s

They're people who don't feel like they belong, so they demand to have their bodies altered to fit their delusions, and when they still feel like there is something wrong they demand others validate them because they can't do it themselves. Yet the suicide rates stay high.

Oh, and no, the government should not pay for such things. We don't pay for people to chop off their own feet because they identify as an amputee, why should genitals be fair game?

Lyanina · 2018-06-23T23:41:50+00:00

What are your views

A few years ago, for some reason, I started following a few trans youtubers and around the same time I was active on an online LGBT community. I sympathized with what I imagined these trans people were going through. Since then a childhood friend came out as transgender, and then of course there was my ex. That hasn't really affected my view.

Is it innate or a choice ? Genetic or Environmental ? Part of the normal variation of humankind ? Or an aberrant oddity ?

More nature than nurture IMO, but I guess "opinions" don't really matter for this kind of stuff. Definitely an oddity though. Seems like a stupid choice to make so I never really saw it as one, but I guess there are a lot more teens identifying as trans that are not "actually" trans these days... but then again, how do I determine what "actually" trans is and who is or isn't?

Should transexuals be supported ? Vilified ? Ignored ? Made to wear pink triangles ?

I don't think any good will come from vilifying or ignoring them. Or stigmatizing them. I'm all for acceptance and using their preferred pronouns. The very few I knew personally who have transitioned, if only socially, are happier for it.

Should sex change operations be performed free of charge by your country's universal healthcare system* ?

As it stands, they are covered by the system (you can't just decide to get gender reassignment surgery and have it for free, but if you "follow the steps" and fill out the correct administrative forms with a doctor, it's covered). I have no problem with that.

Also, who's the mod who refuses to put the second s in transsexual.

[deleted] · 2018-06-23T23:32:30+00:00

I think there are legitimate biological cases of true transgenderism, but I think they're rare. I also think there's a lot of grey area where people don't fit neatly into the pink or blue boxes, and whether that's actual "trans" or not I don't know and don't really care.

It's become trendy to be trans, and I think that a lot of the modern trans cases are socially enforced.

Saying that though, just because it isn't "real" doesn't mean I have a problem with it. If a man decides he feels better living as a woman, go nuts. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. These inbetween or weird teens that don't fit in with the masculine jocks or the pretty Stacies are finding a home and support in the trans/queer communities and running with it. If it makes them happy then good for them.

I do my best to use the preferred pronouns with people who have them, it's no skin off my back to indulge it, whether it's a fantasy or not.

I live in a country with universal healthcare, and I think that if there was a way to identify the "legitimate" cases then they should be given subsidised treatments/surgery. There isn't a way to tell though, so right now it's messy and I just don't know.

I find people who don't take it seriously and consciously fuck with gender to be fascinating. Drag, non-binary, agender, androgyny, etc are not my personal thing, but I love that they exist and push against the norm. When it's done cleverly and tongue in cheek it's an awesome form of art in my opinion.

Dabunghole · 2018-06-23T23:20:38+00:00

Tranny’s are gross.

says_harsh_things · 2018-06-23T22:57:10+00:00

Learning about biology, how we all start the same but our genitals develop differently in the womb depending on hormones present and how sometimes those hormones dont make the divide so clear cut, i believe some people may fall somewhere in between the two genders.

I feel very sorry for those people having to be associated with the attention seeking professional victims that make up the other 99% of 'trans' people.

Entropy-7 · 2018-06-23T22:52:45+00:00

I am very male and much a cat person and I am insulted..

Everyone should pay their own dime.

I am a 21st century man. However, just because I accept people's choices (and they are largely state-enforced) that doesn't mean I condone them, and it doesn't mean I have to celebrate them even if government money is thrown at that.

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Title	Off-Topic Discussion of the Week: Transexuals (23 June 2018)
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	8
Comments	203
Date	June 23, 2018 10:36 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8tdiif/offtopic_discussion_of_the_week_transexuals_23/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/off-topic-discussion-of-the-week-transexuals-23.261797 https://theredarchive.com/post/261797

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