DON'T BE THAT GIRL | MensRights

Bobsutan · 2012-12-05T06:24:45+00:00

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Source of Dissenting Opinion

March 2011, Vol. 14, No. 1 , Pages 48-52 (doi:10.3109/14647273.2010.520798)

HTML PDF (184 KB) PDF Plus (185 KB) Reprints Permissions

Stephen R. Killick1,2, Christine Leary1,2, James Trussell1,3, Katherine A. Guthrie1,4 1Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Hull York Medical School, University of Hull, Hull, UK 2Hull IVF Unit, Women and Children's Hospital, Hull, UK 3Office of Population Research, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ, USA 4Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare Partnership, Hull and East Yorkshire, Hull, UK Correspondence: Prof. Stephen Killick, The Academic Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Women and Children's Hospital, Anlaby Road Hull, HU3 2PZ, UK. E-mail: [email protected]

This study was designed to establish whether motile spermatozoa are released with pre-ejaculatory fluid and whether this fluid therefore poses a risk for unintended pregnancy. Forty samples of pre-ejaculatory fluid were examined from 27 volunteer men. Samples were obtained by masturbation and by touching the end of the penis with a Petri dish prior to ejaculation. Eleven of the 27 subjects (41%) produced pre-ejaculatory samples that contained spermatozoa and in 10 of these cases (37%), a reasonable proportion of the sperm was motile. The volunteers produced on up to five separate occasions and sperms were found in either all or none of their pre-ejaculatory samples. Hence, condoms should continue to be used from the first moment of genital contact, although it may be that some men, less likely to leak spermatozoa in their pre-ejaculatory fluid, are able to practice coitus interruptus more successfully than others.

tl;dr: If you have a high fertility rating, your sperm will find a way.

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Well, that imbalance is just a biological necessity. I think the better point is that an unmarried woman can unilaterally choose whether or not to pursue child support, whether or not to give the kid up for adoption, and even (this one is crucial) whether or not to abandon the kid at a "Safe Haven" shelter and walk away from all parental responsibilities and obligations, no questions asked. An unmarried woman can quite literally choose if the child has the right to financial support from both biological parents, one biological parent, or no biological parent (remember this the next time a feminist wants to use the tired "a child has the right to the financial support of the father" argument). An unmarried man can choose to obey the mother's decisions, or go to prison--and they're always passing more legislation to punish disobedient men more and more harshly.

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It's not considered an accident, it's about choice and being responsible for them--namely we want equal opportunity for men and equal responsibility for women. More to the point it's about equal rights.

Women get the choice of how to proceed post-conception. Men do not. Since women get a say, why shouldn't men? If for men conception means parenthood, then in a fair and EQUAL world abortion should be abolished, you know, in the interest of equality. If that's now your cup of tea then how about creating some legal rights for men in this regard. After all, that woman's unilateral choice is going to significantly impact him, particularly if she elects to have the child and tap him for child support. If she can choose to have the baby or not, then he should at least have the choice not to become a parent as well.

A perfectly reasonable solution is to allow men a period of time to "opt out", and if the woman elects to go forward then the man should be afforded all the protections of a sperm donor. What the woman is doing, choosing on her own to have a baby, is absolutely no different than had she gone to a sperm bank.

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Pulling out has almost identical fail rate as condoms. js.

Also, the fail rate of male contraceptives (other than vasectomy) is about 15% with proper use while women's contraceptives are with <10% fail rate with modern contraceptives that involve that copper metal shit at <3-4% fail rate or even less depending on specific type (lowest one is .6% I think).

http://www.contraceptivetechnology.org/CTFailureTable.pdf <- here is an updated list with different numbers that I stated but similar trend where female contraceptives can have a fail rate of as little as .02% while men's lowest is 2%. Withdrawal vs condom use vary by 2% when perfect used and 4% typical use (not really significant if you think about it). Might as well have sex like the catholics according to your calendar.

Just one more note. Male sterilization has about the same fail rate as Mirena, mirena being long-term but not a one-way contraceptive.

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1) Untrue. How do I know? From personal experience at my school and others in the area (I'm from Georgia).

We were taught adamantly that abstinence is the only effective contraceptive. We were not taught about ANYTHING else. Any discussion regarding contraceptives was not allowed, "This is not what we're here to discuss", the teachers would say.

If I based my view of sex on sex ed, I'd believe that:

90% of people around me have STDs which makes them miss weeks of work and school every year which causes them to get fired and drop out. They are bad people.
There are NO contraceptives that are remotely effective. Abstinence is the only contraceptive you should use. Everything else is shit. Anyone that tells you otherwise has obviously not learned anything
You should have sex only if you want children. Otherwise, you're irresponsible.
There is momentary pleasure in sex. So...just stay away from it.

And i'm not kidding. I didn't go to a religious school or anything. It was just a regular high school. Friends from other states that went to other schools shared my experience.

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I think the point is here that whatever precautions you both take, the girl may still get pregnant. And that's fine because that happens.

However, what happens afterward, a man has no power over. The girl may decide to take a morning after pill or get an abortion or not. And the guy can't do anything.

Pre-sex and during sex, they are both equally able to prevent pregnancy via contraceptives. After sex, the woman has the decision making power.

I'm not entirely sure how this could be structured due to philosophical and religious dilemmas. If the girl does not believe in abortion, should she be forced to if the man doesn't want the child? Should she bear the responsibility of them by keeping the child and the man refuses to take responsibility of the child?

The other way around, if the man does believe in abortion, should he be forced to accept the woman's decision just because her beliefs differ? Should the man have to suffer losing a potential child just because woman doesn't want one and nor does she want to give birth?

The power is currently all on the female. If abortion was illegal, they'd be both equally responsible for a child that neither may want. I just don't know a good way of dealing with the situation.

One thing I could see happening is kind of a sign off like so:

if neither man nor the woman want the child -> abortion/adoption. Adoption part would depend on their beliefs or whatever.
if one wants the child and the other does not, the one that wants it will have sole rights. In the case that the man wants the child and the woman does not, however, would we require her to come to full term and giving birth so that the man can keep the child? Could the man sue her if she miscarried for possible foul play? Idk.
if both want it, there's no issue.

Idk, this may sound a bit better than other alternatives

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You never answered my question, you just stated the obvious:

What I'm trying to get you (and everyone else) to realize is that once the pregnancy exists you've lost your ability to choose. You've given it to her. Your ability to choose starts and ends with your decision to have sex. That's where your rights are strongest and if you choose not to think then it your own fault. Once the child exists you're both responsible for it IMO.

We all know this, the question is, WHY is it like this? Nobody is asking for "control over a woman's body" what we want is the chance to opt out of fatherhood. Once again, if BOTH parties are EQUALLY responsible, how come only one gets the choice? I'm pretty sure this subreddit is about advocating for change, so why are you just spouting "this is the way it is, accept it!" Pretty sure that's not what this subreddit is about so either start advocating for change or GTFO.

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You asked what a woman's body had to do with it. Your exact words. I then explained that people have autonomy over their own bodies, and then gave examples of things you cannot force a person to do, such as demand they carry or not carry a child. As I said before, your first question was the only one I was addressing, and perhaps I should have clarified that by quoting you directly when I did so, but it seemed obvious. I never accused you of advocating forced abortion, it was merely emphasizing the point that the decision to have, or not have, a child is the women's decision since she is the person who's body it is growing inside of. And because she is the one who makes that decision, whoever contributed semen to the baby will also have to cooperate to some degree with her wishes, and this often includes a financial obligation. You keep harping on how unfair it is that the choice is entirely the woman's. The choice is entirely the woman's because the baby is PHYSICALLY INSIDE OF HER BODY AND CANNOT BE INSIDE OF A MAN'S. There is no fair solution to a situation where two people create a baby but don't agree on what to do about it, and only one person can actually carry the baby to term. Your real beef is with the financial obligations that may or may not accompany a woman's decision, and you want the opt out option to be available in some capacity.

And for christ's sake, you need to calm the fuck down. The intensity of your indignation/outrage/hostility is totally disproportionate to the tone of this conversation and makes you sound like an over dramatic child throwing a temper tantrum. Have fun lighting all your straw men on fire.

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By that logic, any argument for being pro-choice(for women) goes out the window as well. Sex happens, accidents happen and young/inexperienced men/women will make mistakes too. Not everything is full-proof and, once the deed is done, men need recourse too. Not even going into the entire financial support aspect of it, it's still the rest of his life on the line too. Men should have right to choose whether or not they become a father, rather than have those emotional, financial and physical responsibilities that come with being a father. Lets not also forget the issue of bodily integrity, and of who owns that seed or consent in how it is used. His body, his choice. Otherwise what applies to men should really be applied to women as well, and any pregnancy resulting from unprotected sex or other mishaps should no longer become a choice but a life-long responsibility.

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Having a choice in the matter is not shirking personal responsibility(though, again, if you were to make that kind of argument, you would have to make it about women's choice as well). Which ever decision someone chooses to make, they have to live with that choice. That is part of taking responsibility for their actions and, regardless of what your personal opinions may be on the matter, it is still their life, their body and, therefor, their choice. And, no, it's really not the same thing as "oops I accidently killed someone", that is a ridiculous analogy. It may be more accurate if the scenario was "I let my friend borrow a knife to cut a sandwich but she used it to go kill someone. Now I'm an accessory to murder and testimony alone decides whether or not we end up going to jail for life" but, even then, it really isn't fair to compare murder to an unwanted pregnancy.

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Title	DON'T BE THAT GIRL
Author	Bobsutan
Upvotes	366
Comments	173
Date	December 5, 2012 6:24 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14b6xs/dont_be_that_girl/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dont-be-that-girl.1007514 https://theredarchive.com/post/1007514

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