I wanted to take a moment to deconstruct these comments. How they confirm our distaste towards ideas like "toxic masculinity" and the feminist approach to men's issues.

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2021-09-04T01:29:27+00:00

So I was browsing through reddit and I came across these on a post critical of our sub (followed the typical thread of some rando coming here. Posting a clear ideological purity test and then going around reddit to talk about how evil we are for not answering the way they want)

And I came across these comments. And I thought to myself that these are an excellent example of the problem many of us have with their approach to men's issues.

I've seen many people refer to this as similar to the "original sin" of catholic doctrine. And using religious terms is just too apt for thinking like this so I'll continue to call it such.

Essentially the issue as I see it is that these people have accepted wholesale that men as a group oppressed and were terrible to women for thousands of years. This isn't true to anybody who's so much as glanced at a history book. but the point is that to them this is the original sin of men. So called "patriarchy"

and because of this. They've internalized the view that men are inherently bad because we've been raised in a society that hates women. Much like somebody who's been raised in a racist family may not realize their own prejudices.

but there's a difference. Whereas somebody in a majority white rural community may only see minorities on the news doing all sorts of bad shit which only works to confirm their prejudices.

Every single one of us came from a woman. I can say with absolute certainty that no man alive today was born out of a test tube.

We all have mothers. and grandmothers. And most of us have sisters, aunts, wives, girlfriends, friends or some sort of contact with women. And there's literal mountains of evidence pointing to the idea that men are more empathetic to woman than to other men.

So how is it that you can look at history or at men and conclude that we're evil oppressors of women who need to be "deprogrammed" from our original sin.

The only way you can do so is if you twist reality to suit your view. And that's exactly what these people do. We have blatant evidence of this in the areas of rape and domestic violence. Feminists have been fudging stats and not acknowledging their own biases to uphold their victimhood narrative.

Now is this to say that women haven't had a rough time? of course not.

But it wasn't women who had to die in wars to earn the vote. It was men. and in the majority of the world. When men got the vote. Women weren't far behind. and most of the arguments against women's suffrage were from a viewpoint that women shouldn't face the same dangerous responsibilities that men do to earn the vote.

Men care about women. Men love women. to the detriment of our own wellbeing. And that's why so many men are willing to accept and internalize this idea of their original sin.

But I for one won't. I recognize biases. I make an effort to be aware of them and how it may affect my views. And I know that I'm not going to let those biases guilt me into accepting the blame for something I didn't do.

We're not monsters. But as the old proverb goes. "a child not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel it's warmth".

So I'll offer this advice to any who believe in this bunk.

You are making innocent people into monsters by treating them as such for no good reason.

hendrixski · 2021-09-04T03:18:14+00:00

Menslib thinks of itself as a place where men can Liberate themselves from gender norms. Which sounds awesome because it's society's expectations of men that is toxic, not men.

Unfortunately, menslib does have a lot of people who fit the description in the pictured thread: men"fixing themselves" for women. Believing that they are what's toxic. Which sounds pathetic.

Deadlocked02 · 2021-09-04T03:31:42+00:00

The way they refer to men is akin to how some Christians refer to the homosexual members of the church. Patriarchy theory will always close the doors to genuine empathy for men. When you think about what needs to be true for the core beliefs of modern feminism to make sense, it’s really not surprising that so many people loathe men and see them as broken. How else are people supposed to feel about oppressors?

Now what these guys need is to develop some tolerance and maturity to accept the fact that no one has any obligation to address male issues from an exclusively feminist perspective. This is the epitome of entitlement. If they believe men are defective, fine, but not one needs to work under the same assumption. I won’t accept compulsory ideologies.

JettisonThrowToss · 2021-09-04T12:47:10+00:00

I have been trying to square this circle myself for several months. One helpful piece of wisdom I try to keep close is Lao Tzu’s “What is the good man, but the the bad mans teacher? What is the bad man, but the good mans project?”

I don’t entirely know what it means, but I think lots of modern discourse is “dunking” on someone for being wrong, but not doing anything to help them not be wrong anymore. It’s exhausting to always be a good teacher and show people a better way, especially when they don’t see it the way you do. I remember being especially confused and hurt when someone told me not to use the word “blind” to refer to those who could not see because it was offensive, and when I asked how else to refer to that community, I was told “it’s not my job to educate you.” It seems like people think their job ends with identifying the fault, and the solution is someone else’s problem.

FesseEnChocolat · 2021-09-04T14:21:57+00:00

A lot of feminists, on the subject of male issues dont really care about the unfair way society treats us but how we act. And that's exactly why places like r/menslib are infuriating to a lot of us.

I want to talk about how we can also have access to a social net to not become homeless the moment we arent financially autonome, im not here to talk about why and how en should be less terrible human beings in your eyes.

PricklyGoober · 2021-09-04T01:22:30+00:00

Basically translating to “they don’t kowtow to feminism enough yet”.

thereslcjg2000 · 2021-09-04T04:52:51+00:00

Even putting aside the issues with the ideology, there’s a definite double standard that exists in some people’s minds that it’s okay for women to have imperfections whereas men who don’t already have the perfect mindset deserve to be shunned and disliked.

LoveTheGiraffe · 2021-09-04T09:18:22+00:00

They don't want men to be themselves, be better than they were yesterday or improve their lives. They want men to change in a way they allow it under their feminism-lense. And that's exactly the issue with this sub. It's not "how to be a better man" or a place where men can help each others. They don't realize the only thing they offer is another "you need to be this way" mentality. Just replaced the standard masculine shit like being physically strong with "you need to let women walk all over you and become a member of this cult". And it is a cult at this point.

BloomingBrains · 2021-09-04T08:14:56+00:00

When I first came here, I didn't quite understand all the hostility for menslib. But lately I have been understanding it and this is the final nail the coffin for me. There could not possibly be a better descriptor than "controlled opposition". And this whole exchange is dripping with enough condescension that it could drown a puppy.

How calculating and evil is it to create a place that feeds false promises to desperate and vulnerable men when in really it is an indoctrination facility where your only reward is being patted on the head and told "good doggy!"

TheLWMA · 2021-09-04T09:05:14+00:00

"Deconstructing the shit that patriarchy has instilled in them."

"Men haven't quite figured out how to not be terrible occasionally."

"MensLib gives men a place to discuss and figure out their own toxicity while not exposing it to others unnecessarily".

This rhetoric... terrifies me. Even more so since these comments are coming from men.

xerdopwerko · 2021-09-04T13:44:10+00:00

I subscribe to both this sub and that one. I have found things I agree with on both, and like to see both perspectives.

However, over there, I have also seen a user unironically refer to himself as a "Low Value Man" and saying that he was aware of being one and that was his lot in life.

This interiorised hate of ourselves does not help us become "better" to anyone.

I think it is a way to keep men from achieving class consciousness, and some of that branch of discourse includes regressive, counter-revolutionary thought that legitimises right-wing oppressive structures and exploitation. I don't know where it comes from, but it does not fix the problems that men have, and it does not make men improve for society either.

LacklustreFriend · 2021-09-04T14:11:55+00:00

Women have problems, men are problems.

Imaginary-Sense3733 · 2021-09-04T09:59:35+00:00

I never really know what to think of menslib. I've had so many positive and productive conversations on there, but you still see shit like this, and it always breaks my heart to see; I think that for a lot of it's user base, it isn't a very mentally healthy environment to be in and it seems to erode the self conception of a certain personality type after a while.

I wonder if it comes down to a question of moderation? The user base actually being more ideologically diverse than we give them credit for but having to speak very carefully in order to not contradict the moderators' takes on feminism?

helloiseeyou2020 · 2021-09-04T18:51:34+00:00

The person that wrote the reply can go fuck him/her/themself and that's all the emotional or intellectual bandwidth I have to spare for such a small-minded, self-absorbed asshat of a bigot

However this is a fantastic example of someone in the wild discussing the ideas surrounding toxic masculinity in the precise ways we say are common yet no one seems willing to admit.

And they aren't being ridiculously inflammatory on purpose as a bit. They are saying this casually in a conversation and truly think they're being helpful. And THAT is the heart of the fucking problem

sensuallyprimitive · 2021-09-04T20:45:23+00:00

these people have brainworms lol. they can't just talk about things with an actual mind for all people. ironic.

Phantombiceps · 2021-09-04T09:33:31+00:00

Can’t stress enough how important it is to always point out this error to these people: that gender has a economic/political aspect does not = genders are economic/political groups that “do“ shit to each other. They aren’t. Back when only men could be university professors, lawyers, or mayors, they didn’t commute in from a male county or a male neighborhood.

Title	I wanted to take a moment to deconstruct these comments. How they confirm our distaste towards ideas like "toxic masculinity" and the feminist approach to men's issues.
Author	Forgetaboutthelonely
Upvotes	162
Comments	53
Date	September 4, 2021 1:06 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/phhvoz/i_wanted_to_take_a_moment_to_deconstruct_these/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/i-wanted-to-take-a-moment-to-deconstruct-these.1066999 https://theredarchive.com/post/1066999

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