10 Ways to Be a Better Male Feminist - Exactly what you'd expect from Huff Po.

2013-11-07T12:22:18+00:00

The 10 ways to be a better male feminist can be summarized by one point.

Leave.

Peter_Principle_ · 2013-11-07T03:38:41+00:00

I stopped reading after number 2.

Leave your baggage at the door.

Be prepared to do a lot of listening.

So they want me to listen but they don't want to listen to anything I might bring to the table.

Revoran · 2013-11-07T06:29:54+00:00

Can you blame us for being suspicious when men try to enter our spaces, no matter how seemingly good their intentions?

Under the guise of "feminism," men have sexually harassed and raped women whose trust they'd gained, used their positions of influence to bully and silence women (Hugo Schwyzer, anyone?) and even gotten away with murder. No, you probably won't do any of those things-- but we can't be sure of that.

Ah yes, because men are prone to murdering and raping. When you're talking to someone, your first reaction should be suspicion of whether they'll rape you or not - that's totally reasonable.

This is something a lot of men struggle with, and with good reason -- they've come from a position of total privilege, where their ideas and opinions are automatically given weight by virtue of their gender.

This is the typical man-hating drivel I would expect. No surprises here.

rapey_raperson · 2013-11-07T05:41:03+00:00

We have been silenced for so long. Let us speak. Please.

For nearly 40 years I've been hearing about feminism's progress and watching Men's Rights deteriorate in this country.

I doubt that neither the author or most of her feminist peers even remember a time when women were silent. God knows I don't.

rykocolor · 2013-11-07T04:37:38+00:00

That was so difficult to just skim. I could barely read the main points, but suffice to say it makes so little sense it doesn't even require an in-depth refutation, or even a simple point-counterpoint refutation.

This isn't a list of how to be a better male feminists, it's a list of how to be used, how to lose all self respect, how to not have an opinion, and how to support a cause that is not about you and doesn't really want your opinion - made crystal clear in point 5:

This is our movement. We're glad that you're along for the ride, but you have to learn that you don't get to take center stage. That space is reserved for women with real lived experiences to share.

Nor do they want your expertise or opinion - in fact, if you disagree at all with what a women 'feels', even if objectively she is incorrect in a matter about say, law, you should just leave, made clear in point 7:

maybe you've understood a certain law differently from her....You tell her you don't think that's the way things are and proceed to explain reality the way you've experienced it....That's mansplaining

Apparently trying to have a discussion, attempting to understand through the use of questions and empathy, or even supporting the idea of simple critical thinking by questioning everything, is impossible.

This articles main points:

1- we don't really want you here (points 3 & 4 - though all can really apply)

2- we don't care what you know, your expertise, or your experiences (points 1, 4, 5, 7)

3- do what we tell you no matter what and always agree with us (all points)

2013-11-07T04:35:59+00:00

so, basically one point that can be summed up as "Shut up and do what i say"

double-happiness · 2013-11-07T08:57:29+00:00

Your buddies all tell rape jokes. [...] You smile awkwardly when your bestie tells women to make him a sandwich

Some feminists must have some very strange ideas about what men discuss amongst themselves. I can't remember having heard any rape jokes, and if I did I'd say they were almost certainly about male rape. A lot of adolescent humour involves homosexuality and/or violence in one way or another, so I wouldn't be suprised (perhaps people often joke about things they fear).

And 'make me a sammich'? If she stopped and thought about it for two minutes, it might occur to her that if anyone does talk like that, they are probably being ironic, because it's an increasingly uncommon and old-fashioned idea that women will do all the cooking. (On the other hand, I think a lot of men like to cook these days).

She also mentions tone-policing, which is ironic, because when she deploys content like...

the rages that overtake me when my football team isn't winning

and

You're a stand-up guy, right?

...I can't help getting the feeling she is trying ingratiate herself with men, whilst simultaneously speaking down to them, and telling them "don't take this personally". Perhaps she might experience less the way of tone policing if she spoke to men like adults.

RubixCubeDonut · 2013-11-07T11:22:00+00:00

You may be under the impression that I hate men. This is not the case. Men are fine! (Some men are really fine, if you get what I'm saying, which I'm sure you do, because that had all the subtlety of a large-scale trainwreck.)

"Some of my best friends are black, therefore I'm not racist!"

Feminism is a movement that is largely based on female lived experiences.

Which is why it's bullshit.

I want you to think about all the women who are denied a chance to speak by men around the world -- women who are barred from obtaining an education, women who are subjected to genital mutilation, women who aren't allowed to work, women who are survivors of sexual abuse, women of color, trans and queer women, sex workers. Don't they deserve a chance to be heard? Wouldn't you like to be the person to give them that chance?

Listening to a gender studies major who couldn't get laid on a submarine while she whines does nothing for the women being mutilated in sub-Saharan Africa. The fact that you share a sex with the victims of unspeakable atrocities does not make you a victim of an unspeakable atrocity.

We have been silenced for so long. Let us speak. Please.

Get something worth saying.

You're a stand-up guy, right?

Clearly we have not yet been introduced.

Under the guise of "feminism," men have sexually harassed and raped women whose trust they'd gained, used their positions of influence to bully and silence women (Hugo Schwyzer, anyone?) and even gotten away with murder.

Gotten away with murder? When did this happen?

So be prepared for a little hostility. We've had to learn the hard way to be suspicious of strangers bearing gifts. If you work hard and do right by us, we'll accept you in time.

"If you prove that you're not a nigger, I'll accept you even though you're black."

This is something a lot of men struggle with, and with good reason -- they've come from a position of total privilege, where their ideas and opinions are automatically given weight by virtue of their gender.

Stephen Hawking isn't trusted because he's male. He's trusted because he's Stephen Hawking. It's really not that hard to understand.

A lot of men take offense to this, but you need to learn to bite your tongue.

Don't lie and I won't expose your lies.

That space is reserved for women with real lived experiences to share.

A: this implies that men don't have "real" lived experiences.

B: this implies that lived experiences are somehow intrinsically valuable for discovering the truth. They're really not. Human memory is not as infallible as we like to believe it is.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to speak. I'm saying you have to wait your turn. In feminist spaces, a woman's lived experience takes precedence over your insights as a man. We're kind of natural experts in this field, you know? Just let us talk.

And plantation owners were "natural experts" on proper racial hierarchy. Hitler was a "natural expert" on the oppression of the Aryan at the hands of the international Jewish conspiracy. Everyone's the hero of their own story.

If you want to do something concrete -- and I'm guessing you do -- this is the best place to start. Call out sexism when you see it. Tell your buddies those rape jokes aren't cool.

"Cool" and "funny" are two entirely separate things, really.

Roll your eyes at your friend's sandwich jokes and tell him he's being an ass.

One can be an ass and be funny.

When you witness street harassment, step up and say something.

Get in a random stranger's face and yell at him. That's a great way to get your ass kicked.

You're talking to a sex worker who's sharing her story of what working life is like for her where she lives. You feel like she's getting some of the details wrong -- maybe you've understood a certain law differently from her, or you find it hard to believe the police are so unsupportive. You tell her you don't think that's the way things are and proceed to explain reality the way you've experienced it.

That's mansplaining, and you shouldn't be surprised if that sex worker gets more than a little testy when you do it.

Being male doesn't automatically make one wrong.

Do you honestly think you know more about the reality of sex work than the girl who was talking to you about it? She lives it.

There are police officers who will swear by the polygraph. That doesn't make polygraphs any less useless.

I think I've kept my tone fairly light thus far, but most of the time, if I'm talking about social justice, I'm pretty goddamn angry.

Yes, I know. Feminists have a serious tough guy complex. Which is funny, because whenever you force them into any level of confrontation, they scream and sob rather than explain themselves. This picture says it all. You'll notice that feminists tend to keep blogs rather than engage in academic debates. And you'll never find them working as police officers where they'd actually have a chance to go rounds with the rapists they claim to hate. They'll bitch about how unfair the military is, but you don't see them going down to the recruiting station to prove that they could hack it in the Marines.

I know that anger can be very confronting and a little off-putting

Notice that she expresses her righteous indignation on a blog, rather than in a place where someone could contradict her.

As my dad was fond of saying: the reasonable man adapts himself to the world, whereas the unreasonable man adapts the world to himself; therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

You can't adapt the world to yourself. The world doesn't care how dedicated you are or how much feminist literature you've read. You're subject to gravity just like the rest of us are. Reason works. Just look at how the use of the natural sciences has improved the living standards of human beings across the world. Screaming like a lunatic at polio doesn't work. Vaccines do.

Or you could take my word for it and just let us be mad when we need to be.

With all the time the badasses of the world spend on the internet, one has to wonder how they find the time to actually get stuff done.

Come along to our seminars and tell all your friends to come too.

If I wanted to see losers who had not and will never have any experience with male sexuality whine about it, I would. I don't, so I won't.

Not if -- when. Because it will get hard, I promise.

Which is why so many of you have done something difficult, right?

Oh wait, none of you have. You coast through college while majoring in gender studies. You don't go through basic training or police academy. You don't get PhDs that require anything more than whining about how awful men are. You don't serve with medical relief teams that actually go to third world countries. You losers do nothing and act like you're Genghis Khan.

Don't worry, we all mess up, and we all eat crow afterwards. It's fine, the internet has a pretty short memory.

Just ask anyone who's put an embarrassing photo up on Facebook.

This is a war so many of us wish we didn't have to wage. I can't tell you how tiring it is to spend day after day after day having to fight for my fundamental human rights.

Because you don't actually do that.

This is about the way 50 percent of the world is forced to live because of a system that regards them as second-class citizens.

Contrast this with the 80% of humanity that lives on less than $10 a day. And you're also pretending that the treatment of women in America is somehow equivalent to the treatment of women in the nations where FGM is practiced. They're not.

Feminism is vital work. It's hard, it's messy, and it's often thankless, but it's also very, very necessary.

What's hard about bitching on the internet?

Let's save the world together.

The world doesn't need "saving" from the likes of you. People starving in the third world or living under corrupt and ineffectual governments don't need whining about how disgusting porn is. They need stable agricultural systems and governments that don't suck. Things you idiots are not equipped to help provide.

2013-11-07T03:57:14+00:00

Where is this taking place - a weekly feminist meeting? Or, is she describing day to day interaction between normal people?

CMOS222 · 2013-11-07T05:59:05+00:00

At least they provide us the benefit of knowing exactly what NOT to do to kowtow to her. The pretentiousness is breathtaking.

Amunium · 2013-11-07T11:33:58+00:00

A lot of men take offense to this, but you need to learn to bite your tongue. This is our movement.

Well, at least this one admits that feminism doesn't cover men's issues.

If only they could agree on it.

Deansdale · 2013-11-07T08:13:09+00:00

Let's summarize this new version of the 10 commandments for feminist men:

Shut the fuck up! Be prepared to be (rightfully!) abused by female feminists! Submit to us and force other men to do the same!

What a fine proposition, that is. I feel so excited for male feminists.

dejour · 2013-11-07T05:20:28+00:00

Obviously a stupid article. People have a right to voice their opinions.

But it could have value when a feminist reads this subreddit looking for a fight.

Link to the article, and tell them to:

leave her baggage at the door
be prepared to do a lot of listening
don't expect an automatic welcome
don't expect special treatment
don't talk over us
don't stay silent when you see anti-male sexism in action
never, ever femsplain to us
don't tell us to calm down (aka don't call us angry)
amplify and empathize
don't give up when it gets too hard

RBGolbat · 2013-11-07T03:33:36+00:00

What makes me madder is the appropriation of the feminist movement by men who either don't know what they're doing or are deliberately trying to profit from it.

Somehow, MEN have been appropriating feminism.

arilando · 2013-11-07T11:19:57+00:00

Why would anyone want to be part of a movement where they have to take a subservient, disadvantaged position?

pjleo85 · 2013-11-07T06:48:42+00:00

I love the ending where she explains how hard it is for poor women fighting for their basic human rights. Has she ever heard of a little skirmish called World War II? Millions of men from around the globe died in order to preserve basic human rights and dignity! That's just one example, but there is no way men could possibly understand a feminist's daily "struggle".

Lightfiend · 2013-11-07T12:20:10+00:00

TL;DR:

Shut up.
Do a lot of listening.
Only speak if you agree.
Don't question the dogma.

Trumpstah · 2013-11-07T12:56:37+00:00

Number 4: Don't expect special treatment.

This is something a lot of men struggle with, and with good reason -- they've come from a position of total privilege.

My gosh this stuff makes me laugh.

harryballsagna · 2013-11-07T13:20:36+00:00

How to be a male feminist:

Don't talk around us.
Don't talk during our stories.
Do talk around your friends in support of us.
Don't tone police us.
PC Police the hell out of your friends.
Learn to take abuse. It's paying dues.
Don't have a different opinion.
Totally defend women in the street.
But, we might think you're a rapist. Get used to it.
Get used to being quiet around a bunch of angry women. It's totally worth it.

Fuck me.

steelheader · 2013-11-07T15:13:15+00:00

My God, it's full of feelz. <stares into the infinite wonder>

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2013-11-07T14:09:01+00:00

Feminism is a movement that is largely based on female lived experiences. If you're not a woman, you can empathize, but you simply can't say you know what we've been through.

Buh buh but they said feminism was about equality for both genders!?!?!

1,2,5,7,8 translate to "Shut up".

The rest are demanding men be the protectors and champions of women.

So they want silent white knights.

Nothing new here.

Arn13 · 2013-11-07T04:41:23+00:00

This is the sort of article I'd expect to be contradicted and condemned by the "feminists who are not like that". Well, where are they? Why haven't they ostracized these "extremists" yet?

nihilist_nancy · 2013-11-07T08:04:03+00:00

Can we stop giving them pagehits yet?

Feminism - still not a hate movement.

Sure.

2013-11-07T12:08:34+00:00

So the TL;DR of this is "If you have a penis, shut up and listen, think what your told to think"

solaria_mra · 2013-11-07T16:43:14+00:00

Holy shit, that was worse than I had expected it to be.

Nomenimion · 2013-11-07T05:06:26+00:00

I'd rather eat live tapeworms than listen to these moonbat windbags brag endlessly about their imaginary and/or self-inflicted problems.

Falkner09 · 2013-11-07T18:02:46+00:00

"I want you to think about all the women who are denied a chance to speak by men around the world...women who are subjected to genital mutilation"

and then to many of them dismiss me when I speak out parts of my genitals removed without consent.

2013-11-07T14:22:37+00:00

They missed point No. 11 - sit at the back of the bus!

rapey_raperson · 2013-11-07T19:51:10+00:00

Anyone else seeing signs of a lot of straw man accounts being used on this thread? Plus I see a lot of "let's not say mean things but be rational in every word" posts, which is not realistic on a forum.

2013-11-07T21:19:51+00:00

Don't expect special treatment.

...

If you want to be a feminist, you have to be prepared to give that up.

d'ohoho

2013-11-08T03:35:48+00:00

I check out the moment I see the phrase "mansplaining". Jesus Christ. It's such a petty way of saying that being a woman makes their opinions incontestable.

natethesnake32 · 2013-11-08T04:18:46+00:00

She is such a hypocrite.

"If you're not a woman, you can empathize, but you simply can't say you know what we've been through."

Then:

"You might not even realize this, but your maleness gives you huge advantages out there in the big, wide world."

So, we men have no idea what it's like to be a woman and no concept of the struggles they go through, but somehow they know better than we do what it is like to be a man? Fuck off.

2013-11-08T12:40:15+00:00

For someone that believes that only women have insight into their own lived experience, it's pretty amazing how much insight she has into male behavior.

Anyway, I must now go and see my bros and make rape jokes.

veyron1001 · 2013-11-07T10:26:10+00:00

-Leave your baggage at the door.

Everyone has a level of baggage. Women almost always have more baggage men.

-Be prepared to do a lot of listening.

If its a well constructed argument in a neutral tone ill listen. Other than that, you're rambling.

-Don't expect an automatic welcome.

Funny because you feminists want that when you try to insert yourself in a male environment.

-Don't expect special treatment.

Read above.

-Don't talk over us.

9/10 times its the last ditch effort to bring you back to Earth from lala land. The next step is usually a blast in the face or walks out on you.

-Don't stay silent when you see sexism in action.

Same can be said about feminists.

-Never, ever mansplain to us.

You mean logic? We dont want you to womanslpain (emotional reasoning) things to us.

-Don't tell us to calm down.

That means you've lost the argument yet you want to keep on going.

-Amplify and empathize.

Just like praying, its not going to help anyone. Action will.

-Don't give up when it gets hard.

Just like nearly every woman that quits a stressful work environment (retail, labor, etc.) for a desk job?

Nomenimion · 2013-11-07T03:35:45+00:00

The only reason a man would willingly have anything to do with feminists is if he hates himself, or is too cowardly to resist social pressure.

2013-11-07T07:04:23+00:00

Oh, man. Huff Po makes me so damn tired.

gndn · 2013-11-07T15:25:22+00:00

You should screencap this shit so we don't drive traffic to their site. They honestly don't deserve the ad revenue.

2013-11-07T05:10:01+00:00

I don't have really a problem with this article, but then I am not a feminist and am not worried that my movement might be misrepresented.
About the points: 1. and 2. are reasonable advice and not specific to feminism.
3. and 4. are factual statements and, while I can't speak authoritatively about their veracity, they align with my experiences.
5. I get it, feminist spaces are spaces for women to talk about their feelings; outside of feminist spaces such a rule is ridiculous.
6.If you see something you find unjust, it's good, but not to be expected, that you speak up. If you encounter something somebody else finds unjust but you don't, maybe you should take a back seat and let them speak for themsleves.
7. I get it, feminism prioritises women's opinions over men's. Men, who believe that the validity of an argument or the veracity of a statement shouldn't depend on who makes it, can't truly be feminists.
8.Aparently men who expect women and men to keep their emotions in check can't be feminists.
9.I don't have a problem with this point, feminist women want compassion, so does everybody.
10.Well, one has to accept what one can't change.

Nomenimion · 2013-11-07T03:29:30+00:00

Not if -- when. Because it will get hard, I promise.

(Not around feminists, it won't!)

gsettle · 2013-11-07T13:30:00+00:00

Try being a better human being rather than a self centered git!

apathos_destroys · 2013-11-07T14:37:28+00:00

Lol so....don't say anything, unless it's to stop other men from sayong things...so I'm a great feminist because I don't talk to them? L o l.

And mansplaining..seriously? "Hey, I think you interpreted something inccorrectly, but enlightening you is sexist, so enjoy ignorance :) "

Edit: btw, what woman has been barred from college in the last 10 years? 20? I haven't heard of any, can we get a source?

The entire article raises issues that feminism isn't currently equipped to address, like sex trafficking and genital mutilation. The rest is a soapbox of non-issues like "shut up and listen".

chavelah · 2013-11-07T13:46:11+00:00

You know, if you gender-switch this thing and make it about women who want to be MRAs, it's not bad advice - at least not for women who are brand-new to the notion.

Title	10 Ways to Be a Better Male Feminist - Exactly what you'd expect from Huff Po.
Author	RBGolbat
Upvotes	53
Comments	134
Date	November 7, 2013 3:24 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1q2qsp/10_ways_to_be_a_better_male_feminist_exactly_what/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/10-ways-to-be-a-better-male-feminist-exactly-what.1159423 https://theredarchive.com/post/1159423

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