When people ask why you're not a feminist, or why you're against feminism, how do you respond?

brightcityvice · 2013-08-25T01:36:28+00:00

Two reasons I don't support feminism or similar groups

I refuse to associate with a group that sees a problem with what I am, disregarding my actions and identity and just putting a label on me. I've shunned mainstream societies views on what is a gender mould and feminism doesn't address male identity.
I don't feel the need to apologise for crimes or morally reprehensible acts that I've never committed. I've never raped, oppressed or abused women and I am not responsible for any acts that have happened to other women.

ddrluna · 2013-08-25T01:48:43+00:00

I've never really been asked this question before. I could give a lot of reasons, but I think the most relevant one is that I don't appreciate a doctrine telling me that I'm somehow less equal than men and that I should be fighting to rectify it.

Pushing aside the debate whether men and women can be or even should be completely 100% equal to begin with, I've never felt lesser than men in my life. I've always been treated very well by my fiancé and all of my male friends and I do the same to them. I don't feel my being female has limited my potential whatsoever and I resent the implication that I should be fighting for "more".

Another reason is that I don't like a doctrine that blatantly disrespects men when it tries to claim it's striving for equality. The rape culture thing pisses me off so much I don't even know what to say about it. I really don't like the implication that "oh if only we educate those stupid mens not to rape womyn then it wont be a problem anymore lolz". I don't appreciate the idea that men are the source of all female problems and that the solution is to push them down.

I know I probably wouldn't be able to get away with saying any of this to them, though. All I'd get in response is that "you're just listening to the vocal minority of radical feminists!" or some cop-out like that. That would be great if that vocal minority wasn't actively petitioning against men's rights. But in the end, they are. And it's total bullshit coming from a group that tries to claim to believe in "equality". I hold myself to a higher standard than that.

Pecanpig · 2013-08-25T02:08:25+00:00

I say "I support equality of opportunity for everyone, and that concept is simply incompatible with Feminism."

CMOS222 · 2013-08-25T06:36:29+00:00

Because the question is analogous to asking someone, "If you believe in God, why aren't you Catholic?"

At the risk of repeating myself, I use the following metaphor:

During the Middle Ages in Western Europe, Christianity was 100% synonymous with the Catholic Church. Although a variety of doctrinal variations emerged over the centuries, the Catholic Church asserted an absolute monopoly over how Christians established a relationship with God. The Roman Pope even eventually claimed authority over the Orthodox churches of the East. Among the secular population, it was taken for granted that the only way to be a good, pious Christian was to be a good Catholic, and follow unquestioningly the dictates of the clergy. To even hint that a person could be a good Christian without following the Church was at some times a crime punishable by death.

One of the results of this doctrinal monopoly was a slow descent into corruption, including the sale of Church offices and opportunities to 'buy' your way into Heaven. An associated trend was a decline in intellectual rigor, scholarship and reasoning.

Finally, somebody got fed up. A theologian named Martin Luther, basing his reasoning on good scholarship and careful reasoning, rejected the notion that a person could establish their relationship with God only through the Catholic Church. Luther and Protestant theologians advanced the novel idea that people could establish a closer relationship with God and the teachings of Jesus through direct examination of both the New Testament and their own conscience.

Although taken for granted by most contemporary people, it was appallingly heretical by the Catholic hierarchy when it first emerged. They had no way of fitting it into their worldview. It challenged the Church's monopoly over Christian thought. The idea that a person could find their own relationship with the Almighty without the intervention of clergy was anathema. In response they branded Protestants as heretics, Satan-worshippers, etc. - as it was the only way they could fit Protestantism within their limited worldview. They were psychologically incapable of of seeing the good points of this argument or understanding that a person could be both a good Christian and a non-Catholic.

The result was centuries of war and misunderstanding, before the idea of freedom of religion, live-and-let-live, became accepted.

Something similar seems to be happening with the challenge to Feminism that the MRM presents. The MRM breaks the monopoly in the debate over how gender is 'constructed' and/or how equality is achieved between people of different genders. The MRM posits that men have their own concerns, their own worldviews, their goals and ways of breaking out of gender stereotypes and roles assigned to men, their own take on equality and human rights. The MRA posits that one can be both in favor of human rights for women as well as for men.

This seems to be extremely threatening on an intellectual level to some (not all) people who profess to be feminists. They assume that gender roles, constructs and relationships can only be examined within a framework of feminist thought. Some of them simply don't know how to fit the MRM into their worldview, not realizing – or perhaps, simply not accepting - that it's their worldview that is in need of adjustment. Their discomfort and confusion drives them to search relentlessly for the smallest nugget of evidence to brand MRAs as misogynist, homophobic and racist. In the same way the Protestant challenge drove the Catholic hierarchy to brand all Protestants as in league with the devil.

It's easier that way. There is nothing you have to change in your worldview. Nothing you have to re-think. Nothing that has to change.

The confusion and discomfort is also evident when they claim, 'If you want to achieve better rights and conditions for males, you must do it through feminism and by working with feminists.' It's like the Catholic Church saying to Luther, 'If you want to have a closer relationship with God, you must only do it through the Church.'

Many people and most MRAs (obviously), see no reason for this. Why there should be only one avenue for addressing male issues and men's concerns. And why, for goodness' sake, should the only avenue open to thinking about men be one constructed by people who have been exclusively concerned with women's issues for the past 50 years.

Some feel, as did some of the early Protestants felt about the Church, that Feminism is irrelevant to addressing men's issues and men's sense of identity; others, like some other early Protestants, feel Feminism itself IS the problem.

because_misogyny · 2013-08-25T01:08:05+00:00

Feminism is hostile to me because of my gender. Feminists assume the most horrible things about me because of my gender. I can't be supportive of a movement that sees me as a problem because of what I am, not for what I've done.

M4Strings · 2013-08-25T00:39:59+00:00

Last time I was asked that online I responded with "The same reason I'm not a member of the KKK, I don't associate with a hate group". Let me tell you, I got some shit for that one.

bl1y · 2013-08-25T05:05:21+00:00

Feminism is a term used by many different people in many different ways. Because of the wide range of uses, it stops being a useful term.

I'd rather explain my views than slap some ambiguous, politically charged label on them.

egalitarian_activist · 2013-08-25T06:36:45+00:00

I oppose feminism because I believe in equality. Feminists oppose equal rights for:

1) Male victims of domestic violence and rape, particularly when the perpetrator is female.

2) Boys with respect to education.

3) Infants with respect to genital cutting.

4) The right to safe spaces.

5) The right to free speech. In particular, the right to state viewpoints on gender that differ from feminist theory.

6) The right to due process regardless of the genders of the accuser and the accused.

7) Paternity/child custody.

8) Reproductive coercion.

And many more. The only way to fight for true gender equality is to fight against feminism.

CosmicKeys · 2013-08-25T06:44:52+00:00

Because I believe in gender equality efforts, and feminism is not an actual gender equality movement.

Lancethebeast · 2013-08-25T10:35:37+00:00

I was "raised" feminist by my mother. She was a cruel human being who truly held nothing but contempt for my existence based solely on my gender. I was disadvantaged in her eyes from day one. I was physically abused a lot, but that is not what bothered me. I can take a hit, and keep on walking. What bothered me was her influence in my life. I can not really sum up how it feels saying that even though I tried me hardest I could never live up to her standards. If I got good grades its because the class favors boys more than girls, if I got bad grades its because boys are less inclined to be intellectual equals with girls.

My hatred with the feminist movement is a product of being discriminated against by the ones I love. For years I believed I was the source of all problems in her life. I thought nothing good could come out of me. I even failed not one but 4 suicide attempts. I tried to kill myself because I truly felt like a blight on the face of the world. It was not until I was 19 that I realized that the abuse I suffered was not my fault but hers.

Dont get me wrong. I love my mother, and I am willing to do anything to help her. Now that I am older and wiser, I notice that she has a good amount of mental instability. I feel like I can not blame her for what she did because she was brainwashed. I have had many sleepless night wondering if I would have grown up happier had she not been exposed to the feminist elements that gave her such a huge hatred towards me.

In conclusion feminism stole my childhood, and robbed me of any innocence I had. Feminism convinced a mentally unstable public that I was not right for this world. Those very teachings, and standards I could not live up to caused me to try and end my life in an effort to make the world a better place. I hate feminism because of my scars physical, and mental.

4man · 2013-08-25T00:51:31+00:00

My response starts with (I paraphrase here): I am a man, Feminism has nothing positive to offer me. The discussion proceeds from there in various forms.

IHaveALargePenis · 2013-08-25T21:39:04+00:00

Well according to /r/askfeminists, if I don't know feminist theory I should never call myself a feminist anything.

But if they do pull their bullshit of "you're a feminist if you believe in equality" I always start going on with "yeah you must be right, but feminism doesn't seem to focus on (alimony, child support, boys in school, etc) so I guess I'll have to do it in the name of feminism" or some shit along those lines that really pisses them off.

As for honesty, well I'm not a feminist because women had their sexual revolution half a century ago, discarding their gender roles and all. But they still expect men to be chivalrous and abide by their pre-feminist gender roles. That shit really doesn't fly for me.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-08-25T18:54:15+00:00

I do not need to be a feminist to be for equality between the sexes
I find feminist theory to be an insufficient explanation for inequality we face, and most criticism of that seems to be disregarded. Patriarchy theory is in its current forms unfalsifiable, lending itself to nothing more than an ontological boogeyman even if elements of it might be correct.
Feminism is too diffuse, lending legitimacy to harmful elements operating under the label of feminism.

A position that disregards scrutiny while it hides behind academic authority, claims to be helping both sexes but fails to scrutinize it when harm is done by it(or entities identifying as "feminist") to either sex, and says it's "just for [x]" without qualifying it is little more than a political identifier than a coherent position.

ptgrenville · 2013-08-25T02:28:28+00:00

I say, "I'm not a feminist because I believe in equality"

If they say that's what feminism means I say, "being a feminist doesn't mean you believe in equality. Being a feminist means you believe in their theories like womb envy, rape culture, ect. Moreover, feminists don't work for equality. Feminists work for privilege where they percieve women have none while maintaining the privileges women have always had"

TheGDBatman · 2013-08-25T01:07:06+00:00

Tell them to look up the Tender Years Doctrine, Duluth Modeland White Feather Feminism

2013-08-25T04:07:10+00:00

This thread is actually really useful in a sense, but that sense would be to get the actual message out there. Don't fall for the typical feministic trope that "sarcasm = wit" because it largely does not. Explain your position clearly.

Remember, if you approach the situation like a feminist, you will be perceived as you perceive feminists.

Stick to the issues. Feminism is directly responsible for the marginalizing and suffering of male victims, which is why you cannot support it in the name of equality. The sidebars have relevant information towards the subject, as does AVFM's activism page.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/activism/about/

Represent with pride! Demand to be treated as an equal member of society, and treat everyone with the same respect and integrity you'd expect yourself to be treated with. Hatred works cyclically- it always returns to haunt the person flaunting it.

SDcowboy82 · 2013-08-25T04:39:07+00:00

"I treated feminism like any other conspiracy theory. I listened to the conspiratorial claim, in this case patriarchy theory, looked at the evidence, and came to a conclusion."

rightsbot · 2013-08-25T00:02:17+00:00

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2013-08-25T11:10:47+00:00

Feminism is failing with the egalitarian agenda in western cultures massively. Further it appears to be actually causing hatred of males(misandry) unjustly so.. in western cultures.

Tomdowney · 2013-08-25T15:00:50+00:00

Feminism has taken my rights of equality as a father, the right of presumption of innocence when accused of DV, rape, or any other crime that a female chooses to accuse me of, and social justice against me as a man is brutal. All a woman has to do is call me a rapist, wife beater, child molester and her word is golden, social justice puts me in my place and I have been punished by the seriousness of the accusation, actual facts and my innocence is immaterial and ignored.

VortexCortex · 2013-08-25T15:57:59+00:00

I reply, "I don't support feminism because I support women's rights without Marxism"

Typically I ignore them if they loose their shit at this point -- You can't deconvert the Pope.

Otherwise, I proceed to educate them about my study of feminism from either the Marxist Kyriarchy: Ruling Class is the Problem = Oppressed Proletariat rise up against the Bourgeois. Or start at the very beginning with Marxist Feminism, then Radical Feminism being this + Patriarchy, and explain that the entire system of ideals ("Feminist Theory") is composed of assumptions then supporting evidence found through classic selection bias -- which proves nothing: If you step on a crack and go looking for bad stuff you'll find a mother with a broken back.

If they're even a bit rational I'll explain how Feminism abhors the scientific method, and does not pose any disprovable hypotheses, thus has no merit.

For the TL;DR: I'm against Feminism because that is the rational ethical response of anyone who has studied it deeply.

SteelCrossx · 2013-08-25T16:55:08+00:00

I tell people I don't identify with any groups if I can avoid it. I judge positions upon their own merit and don't like feeling compelled to accept any ideas in order to claim an allegiance.

SilencingNarrative · 2013-08-25T03:25:03+00:00

Because I believe that women are just as good, and just as bad, as men are. Feminists disagree that women are just as bad. Which makes them female supremicists.

MockingDead · 2013-08-25T03:54:48+00:00

Because I am not an idiot.

2013-08-25T05:12:18+00:00

Because I want nothing to do with a group that hates me for just existing.

giegerwasright · 2013-08-25T05:25:32+00:00

When people ask me why I'm not a feminist, I say "Because I believe in equality, not self involved chauvanism."

Demonspawn · 2013-08-25T06:36:01+00:00

The problem with most people is that if they support feminism, they're already wrong about so many things up the chain that any discussion I'm going to have with them is going to be flawed because we're not even going to be talking the same language. So when someone asks me why I'm anti-feminist, I look them in the eye and start from the beginning:

"Where do rights come from?"

I have not yet found anyone who supports feminism who knows the actual answer to that question.

anonlymouse · 2013-08-25T15:31:54+00:00

"Women are more violent than men, this is shown in numerous studies that actually compare the rates between both genders, across over 30 countries and for more than 30 years. Feminists lie, and claim that not only the reverse is true, but that violence is almost exclusively perpetrated by men. I will not be part of such a dishonest movement. And yes, I've got a bibliography bomb to back that up."

Samsilent · 2013-08-25T00:03:34+00:00

Cause I'm not braindead

rottingchrist · 2013-08-25T04:20:03+00:00

I'm a man. Feminists hate men and think of all of them as oppressors of women. See the pronouncements made by prominent feminists and their actions. They've made their opinions of men pretty clear many times.

That puts me in opposition to them.

2013-08-25T07:24:57+00:00

"We should aim to make a better society for all. This means addressing problems that men and women face, and not minimizing or ridiculing the problems of either gender."

2013-08-25T09:38:33+00:00

Easy.

When someone asks you why you are not a feminist, then just ask them why you should be a feminist.

Listen to their points and then refute every single one of them.

2013-08-25T10:51:36+00:00

I point to the blatantly authoritarian tendencies that run throughout the movement and its followers. This is a movement dedicated to telling other people what we can and can't say, can and can't do, can and can't believe. This is a movement that has gone to great extents to embed itself in the law. A lot of men have been bitten in the ass by bullshit 'Domestic violence threat' laws that criminalize yelling or slamming a door as a 'threat of violence' (because women don't want to take responsibility for their own irrational fear of male anger, which they tend to view as illegitimate regardless of the cause), or divorce courts, or just someone who decided to 'put them in their place' at work (as many women in power treat their underlings the way they would treat children, and not employees).

If talking to women, don't bother. Very few women are feminists, so if you run into one, just ignore her. If there are other women about who seem iffy about feminism, tell those women the real feminist agenda: fear. Women's groups want to keep women afraid -- of life, but of men in particular, so that they can milk those women for money and support (because fearful women will have to turn to the women's groups for support).

Most people in the real world -- particularly most men -- hate feminism. Most women are at best ambivalent. Reddit is not the real world -- feminists are not only more common here, but the kind of men who indulge their bullshit tend to be as well. I've never received any substantial push back from anyone that mattered.

Klang_Klang · 2013-08-25T13:15:28+00:00

I'm an atheist but a good religious analogy is to say that being for women's rights but not feminism is like being a christian but being against organized religion.

2013-08-25T14:26:16+00:00

I don't support mainstream feminism, because human trafficking is about slavery, not prostitution; sexual & domestic violence is about victims of violence and not women's victimization; parental rights is about the best interests of the family and not deadbeat dads. If you ignore half the problem how could you possibly fix it.

johntheother · 2013-08-25T03:43:19+00:00

I tell them, "because feminism is a violent hate movement". If they're especially obtuse I might ask why they aren't members of the nazi party.

guywithaccount · 2013-08-25T03:04:33+00:00

Yeah, I don't have a handy anti-feminism elevator pitch memorized either.

2013-08-25T06:18:18+00:00

I'm not against women having the right to live their own lives and equal and free access to the job market. I am very definitely against feminism's ongoing hostility to men.

cypher197 · 2013-08-25T15:58:40+00:00

Short version: I say that because [reasons] men need a movement, and feminism cannot be that movement because [reasons].

I don't identify as anti-feminist, though. At least not without qualification as to which sorts of feminists we're talking about.

Celda · 2013-08-25T17:59:52+00:00

Because I disagree with specific feminist actions and because of their dishonest claims (wage gap lie, false rape claims are a trivial issue, most victims of DV and rape are women) etc. etc.

mikesteane · 2013-08-26T06:53:10+00:00

Because feminism is a hate movement embodying the same underlying psychology as Marxism.

chibambi · 2013-08-26T09:24:12+00:00

I don't hate men.

avantvernacular · 2013-08-26T12:20:18+00:00

Because I don't believe someone needs special protection or to be coddeled simply because of their genitals.

crankypants15 · 2013-08-26T16:26:44+00:00

I show them my imgur album filled with irrational feminist rage and hate towards men. A lot of women actually aren't aware of all this hate that is still out there. I didn't until I found Men's Rights.

If the woman is still rational at this point, I continue with:

I don't hate women, I just don't want any part of the hate groups.
"Feminism" is defined by the group that gets the most publicity.
The most publicity is by a hate group, who doesn't want equal rights for men and women.
Moderate feminists don't speak out against the extremists, so all I can conclude is the moderates support the extremists, until I have evidence to the contrary.

BrambleEdge · 2013-08-26T19:27:36+00:00

Because I'm not a gynocentrist.

miroku000 · 2013-08-26T20:35:22+00:00

I would say that while feminists claim they support gender equality, many if not the majority of feminists support policies that favor women.

PeterArching · 2013-08-28T19:35:36+00:00

Well first I ask them to define feminism in a way all feminists would agree with...

2013-08-25T00:19:27+00:00

I ask what kind. Then I simply ask a few questions that demonstrate what they actually think is either contradictory or has a broader term.

The_Patriarchy · 2013-08-25T05:50:11+00:00

https://femintology.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/why-im-an-antifeminist/

VeryWideDoucheNozzle · 2013-08-25T06:35:22+00:00

I am an egalitarian, equality for all. See ... there is no fem or men at the start of it

p3ndulum · 2013-08-25T06:38:42+00:00

"Because I'm a man."

BrSy · 2013-08-25T13:20:08+00:00

I would not respond. They're much more likely to start spouting bullshit than to actually listen to you and reconsider so why bother?

Demonspawn · 2013-08-25T11:48:48+00:00

I respond that I am a feminist. A classical feminist like my mother who believes men and women should have equal rights, not a modern feminist like Big Red who believes that women should be more equal than men because patriarchy.

I've only used this argument twice. In one case, it led to an excellent discussion about the nature of modern feminism and the differences between it and its antecedents, focused on worthy causes like universal suffrage and suchlike. In the other, the lady said some rubbish about it being necessary because women are still oppressed and I don't know what else because I stopped listening to her at that point.

ptgrenville · 2013-08-25T21:33:42+00:00

"I would probably stumble trough a lot of disjointed facts and opinions not convincing anyone of anything."

That's because you're probably a bit thick.

...and you're asking other equally thick people for advice on how to appear less thick when you say you are, effectively, anti-equality and anti-equality driven movements.

2013-08-26T02:42:53+00:00

"Because I haven't actually read anything about feminism and I wantz mah male privilege" might be a good place to start

When people ask why you're not a feminist, or why you're against feminism, how do you respond?

Comments

1, Could not agree more. I hate being grouped into a negative group based on my gender alone. Being thought of as a threat because I am a man, even though I have done nothing, is gross and sexist.

2 Also agree. I am starting to see feminists the same way I see some african american folks. (I owe them something for bad acts that happened before anyone on this planet was even born).

Title	When people ask why you're not a feminist, or why you're against feminism, how do you respond?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	33
Comments	128
Date	August 25, 2013 12:00 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1l1319/when_people_ask_why_youre_not_a_feminist_or_why/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-people-ask-why-youre-not-a-feminist-or-why.1165536 https://theredarchive.com/post/1165536