When talking about men being victims of violent crime at higher rates, what’s a good response to those who reply that it’s men killing men

63daddy · 2023-11-23T19:36:40+00:00

A man being killed by another man doesn’t make him less of a victim. Dead is dead. Same with non lethal violent crime. A victim is a victim regardless of the sex of the perpetrator.

Also if male perpetrators are victimizing other men primarily, it certainly makes no sense to focus efforts in protecting women.

United_Reality4157 · 2023-11-23T19:00:35+00:00

I daré you to change that sentence with blacks instead of men if you are so brave

iainmf · 2023-11-23T18:46:37+00:00

Ask them "so what?"

Get them to say out loud that they think that some victims deserve less support than others based on immutable characteristics.

JACSliver · 2023-11-23T20:07:40+00:00

"Sharing traits with their aggressors does not make them second-rate victims."

Patient-Word-2971 · 2023-11-23T20:08:23+00:00

They're still a male victim, no? That would be like saying that a girl who was killed by her mother because she's a girl doesn't matter because the person who killed her happened to be female.

ERiC_693 · 2023-11-23T21:29:35+00:00

The issue is that when a man is attacked/killed by another man it will be approached in a more balanced way of gathering evidence and figuring out motives, where forensics points to etc..

However when a female kills/assaults a male that is approached in a very ideological (Duluth Model, 1994) way. That is; the woman is assumed (by feminists) to be a victim and she killed an evil abusive male in self-defense. This runs the risk of generating a gendered approach based on how feminists see things rather than how forensics, witnesses and alibis portray the crime. This also happens when men report DV from women that he is put into a perpetrator programme built by feminists to deliberately cover for the female abuser and reclassify the male as the abuser. The fact psych, therapy and law schools are filling up with said feminists is very concerning.

Notable cases are Jodi Arias and Loreena Bobbit where feminists plastered the media with "battered woman syndrome". This will serve to discourage other male victims seeing these news reports from coming forward as he sees the man in the news story portrayed by women as an abuser. This feminist portrayal of male victims as a myth also will help suppress awareness of female abusers; which is imo, exactly what it is designed to do.

So we need to talk about female abusers to loosen up prejudices that men face, tailor services to men which may be different to what female victims need and counter anti-male prejudice and gender bias in feminist models of violence such as the Duluth Model.

manicmonkeys · 2023-11-23T19:39:31+00:00

Ask what point they think that makes.

Striking_Extreme_250 · 2023-11-23T22:03:14+00:00

"And did ya know that lesbian relationships have the highest rate for domestic violence?"

HesperianDragon · 2023-11-23T18:59:25+00:00

Most criminals lacked a male role model growing up.

The solution is more male-led families.

ElisaSKy · 2023-11-23T21:16:46+00:00

"Your point? See, the only reason people bring up the higher rates of victimization of men is because people say or imply it's male privilege to be safer in the streets than women are. Which is clearly and provably false, and the identity of the perp doesn't change that fact."

Stankathon · 2023-11-23T22:16:44+00:00

Ask them whether women killing other women in astronomical numbers would be met with the same apathetic dismissiveness or a society-wide campaign against such nightmarish degrees of internalized misogyny.

Yepitsme2020 · 2023-11-23T21:40:28+00:00

#1 - Then how do you feel about the fact that women are more likely to kill their children and engage infanticide?

#2 - Domestic violence is more prevalent in lesbian relationships than heterosexual... So do women dating women deserve less empathy because it's "women harming women?"

#3 - Men raised in in single parent households where there's just a mom, and no father are far more likely to end up "a statistic" - But the same is NOT true when men are raised in a single father household.

#4 - If male victims should be shown less empathy and discounted due to "other men" being engaged in negative behavior such as violence and murder, then shouldn't the opposite also be true? Namely, that positive inventions and contributions to society that are ALSO "from men" be used to primarily benefit men as well? If the answer is no, then they need to explain the hypocrisy and why the logic goes only one way. Because using their logic, they would/should be living in the stone age whilst men live in modern society with all the cool tech. Same energy... But of course such shallow thinkers would never entertain or admit to such, because deep down inside they know they're bigots.

MaxTheCatigator · 2023-11-23T21:57:43+00:00

That must be a huge relief for the victims and make it much easier being dead.

ConflictedRebl · 2023-11-23T22:55:30+00:00

This is a great example of why feminism is toxic. It actually gives society an excuse to ignore the plight of men.

If men bear the brunt of being victimized the most, it means more men are suffering. Why do we focus on the minority who aren’t hurting one another? Why aren’t we urgently trying to address those most impacted?

Why aren’t we doing more to heal these male victims? Our excuse is “it’s men doing it.”

Sounds like clear evidence to me that mens lives are valued less by society. Is that a message you are ok with? Telling that little boy his life means less than that little girls?

Men take on all the burdens of being a man, jump through all these hoops for women, and at the end of the day society won’t even give men equal consideration.

Society needs to let go of toxic feminism. It serves no purpose if it gives us an excuse to ignore and even perpetuate the constant trauma men endure.

Lolocraft1 · 2023-11-23T21:42:46+00:00

"Just because it’s a group on same group problem doesn’t make it less of an issue"

If they keep arguing, simply tell them that by their logic, black people shouldn’t get support against violence because it’s black people killing black people. That usually either shit them off and make them mad, in both outcome they lose their credibility

NameIs-Already-Taken · 2023-11-23T22:59:19+00:00

Women's children are responsible for all murder.

Hirudin · 2023-11-23T22:21:47+00:00

It's women raising those men.

eldred2 · 2023-11-24T00:46:19+00:00

Ask them whether the women and girls trafficked by Ghislaine Maxwell's are still victims, or are they fine since they share the same gender.

CaptSnap · 2023-11-24T03:23:04+00:00

I feel the kernel of the issue here is they are saying men are causing the problem.....therefore men are the problem.

Try to see if thats what they mean?

I want to point out that racists and sexists both look at the same crime data.....the left and the right. The right look at the crime data and they say, "see! everything we have been saying about black people is true! Black people commit most of the crime! Black people are the problem!"

Now for the left, just replace that with men. Its really that simple.

Heres the problem

First we know that the criminal justice system doesnt treat everyone equally.

This works against men at every step of the criminal justice system. A man is more likely than a woman to have the cops called on him. A man is more likely to be arrested. A man is about 20x more likely to be shot. A man is more likely to be charged. A man is more likely to be found guilty. And a man is mroe like to be sentenced...and when sentenced a man's sentence will be about 60% longer than a womans.

So when you look at criminal justice data all youre really seeing, is who the system hates and who it treats with kid gloves. We should all wish to live in a world where the criminal justice system treats you like a white woman.

Secondly crime is different depending on the victim. Take for example Missing White Woman Syndrome or Women are Wonderful.... when something happens to women, particularly white women its a very big deal. When women commit crime they are usually seen as desperate little angels that have fallen from grace and been pushed to survive by some evil man and all they really need is a little help.

When men commit a crime, its pretty much just put the dog down.

So thats the two fold effect of crime data. Crimes against women are much worse than crimes against men. If a man shoots a woman he's a cold blooded killer pretty much no matter what. If a woman kills a man, poor thing was probably defending herself. I mean that literally... take the case of Mary Winkler shot her husband in the back with a shotgun and served less than 6 months and then even ended up with custody of her kids. Why so little time? Well he abused her obviously.... according to her. 6 months

Thats where their argument is coming from.....thats the overwhelming privilege.

Men commit most crime because really the the judicial system is only designed to be for men. Women have to just shy of completely lose their fucking shit to run afoul of it. Hell go watch COPS for and see it first hand. WOmen can do anything, no problem, HIt the officer? please dont hit me maam. A man isnt quite fast enough raising his hands and falling to the ground in complete compliance? Thats a tazing.

Grand_Ad_864 · 2023-11-23T19:14:19+00:00

There is no response. When people do this it is an admission that they simply don't care about the issue and they try to handwave the problem away with whatever faulty logic they can grasp. Even if this logic isn't accepted while talking about other groups and other problems.

The biggest proponents for female genital mutilation are females. The whole reason why some cultures practice FGM is a thing is so that younger women won't take the men of the older women. If you make sex less pleasurable for the girls, the girls are less likely to take your man. Yet nobody uses this as an excuse to simply sweep it under the rug and ignore it.

Most violent crimes experienced by the black population in the US are committed by black people. But yet this isn't used as an excuse to ignore the issue. But the US still acknowledges this disadvantage black communities face, and as a result, established positive discrimination in order to alleviate it.

The logic of the people you are talking about does not work and is not accepted in most situations. They get away with it as they are using it against males (a group that literally no one cares about). This argument wouldn't be accepted if it were talking about any group which isn't male.

Again, everyone knows it is wrong, they just don't care. So you aren't really going to be changing these peoples minds as they already indirectly admitted that they don't care about the disadvantages males face.

United_Reality4157 · 2023-11-23T19:07:31+00:00

Other thing Is how polititians cateer women voters making them having More places to fall back,men get none of those things ,only special circumstances ,and women being self interested wouldnt have to care

Glittering_Worker793 · 2023-11-23T20:49:06+00:00

"And what would you suggest we do about it?"

Killersmile60 · 2023-11-23T20:59:51+00:00

Why are you engaging in conversation with these people? Do you really think there's some point you're going to score, that's going to make a difference?

Just move on, you can't have an intellectually honest conversation with someone who's already made their mind up.

r_c2999 · 2023-11-23T21:27:49+00:00

That doesn’t make them any less of victims

mr_ogyny · 2023-11-23T23:52:46+00:00

All they care about is ensuring that nobody thinks it’s women perpetrating it, they couldn’t care less about male victims.

Dashing2025 · 2023-11-24T01:31:22+00:00

"So if a woman kills a another woman, it's not a crime?"

Greg_W_Allan · 2023-11-24T03:47:15+00:00

I simply instruct them to never, ever dare to claim they care about the welfare of victims.

pbj_sammichez · 2023-11-24T04:52:19+00:00

I like to point out an inconvenient fact for feminists: even criminals prefer not to harm women. Seriously. The data supports the claim that even hardened criminals would rather harm men than women. So the idea that men seek to victimize women is clearly false. Rather, criminals seek to victimize those weaker than themselves. And it's still done with a preference for facing men - who are more likely to be able to defend themselves than women - because of chivalry.

Hugeknight · 2023-11-24T13:36:17+00:00

Same as men kill themselves more, WoMeN aTTempT mOrE!

We I'm sorry I didn't know being alive was worse than being dead.

TenuousOgre · 2023-11-23T22:57:01+00:00

Through a little a Shakespeare at them, “If you cut them do they not bleed?” And say nothing more. Let them figure it out.

randonumero · 2023-11-24T01:10:20+00:00

The best response is the truth which is that men's lives also have value and men have a right to feel safe. It doesn't matter who is doing the killing, it's still an issue

kaijyuu2016 · 2023-11-24T01:12:39+00:00

They're still victims tho you misandrist

g1455ofwater · 2023-11-24T01:20:06+00:00

Why are they ok with men killing men? It doesn't even occur to them that there is a victim that is a man because men don't get empathy, all they look for is a man to blame so all their focus is on the perpetrator.

gre2704 · 2023-11-24T01:25:30+00:00

Does it hurt less if a woman is killed by another woman as opposed to be killed by a man? Is a mans life less lost if he is killed by another man? Is he less afraid? less desperate? No? Then shut your sexist, psychopathic cakehole if you have nothing of value to say!

That is my only answer to such drivel

Stunning_Memory8347 · 2023-11-24T01:43:21+00:00

Women are the main ones practices "female genital mutilation" on girls. That doesn't stop it from being a gender issue. This is just a lazy feminist deflection.

EnormousPurpleGarden · 2023-11-24T05:51:26+00:00

In countries where female genital mutilation is practised, such as in the Horn of Africa, it's entirely done by women. Men aren't involved in the slightest; most men in those places don't even know about FGM because it's done at secretive women-only events and they don't have access to anatomy textbooks to show them what a vulva would look like otherwise. If violence against men by men isn't a men's rights issue, then violence against women by women isn't a women's rights issue either. If male victims of violent crime don't matter because their attackers are mostly men, then FGM likewise doesn't matter and we can let it continue unabated.

Women oppressing other women is still considered "patriarchy." Many female politicians complain about people (read "women") complaining about how they dress, framing it as a women's rights issue.

Totalitai-state · 2023-11-24T08:02:36+00:00

We are no more responsible for male violence than women that do not employ forced removal of life from the womb as a lifestyle choice.

KPplumbingBob · 2023-11-24T12:28:59+00:00

That somebody would resort to "but it's by another man!" shows they don't care about victims, they care about women. They don't care that a person was a victim of a violent crime. Otherwise they would see how pointless the sex of the perpetrator is.

Hubris1998 · 2023-11-23T19:16:11+00:00

It's blacks killing blacks

kingslayer990 · 2023-11-24T01:45:03+00:00

It can't be women biologically. Also, men have been groomed for violence and not for comfort.

duhhhh · 2023-11-24T03:39:33+00:00

"Wow. You're a sexist piece of shit that doesn't care about anyone born with a penis regardless of who they are as a person."

itsakon · 2023-11-24T04:47:53+00:00

For one it shows we’re not a peer group and there is no “patriarchy”.

Rhbgrb · 2023-11-24T05:08:52+00:00

And that makes them less victims ... How? Sorry that's what always goes thru my head with that stupid reasoning.

lIllIlllIl · 2023-11-24T05:20:04+00:00

Being a men doesn't make me any less vulnerable to other men. It in fact makes me more vulnerable than a woman because men treat women differently than other men.

Random men will challenge other men as if to prove their own superiority to themselves.

By the way, as a man, I've been raped, attacked with a knife, strangled, sexually assaulted etc. etc... multiple times.

ChaosOpen · 2023-11-24T05:39:56+00:00

Don't fall into the trap of an "us verses them" just because men are killing men doesn't really make them any less of a problem compared to if it was women killing men. It isn't men vs women, it's criminals verse innocent.

The point is people are being killed by criminals and men appear to be more venerable to this happening to them.

jonnytechno · 2023-11-24T13:55:17+00:00

The major of women's issues are perpetrated by other women, FGM, slur shaming, objectification .... the list goes on yet we as a society are expected to resolve it

Ryuhi · 2023-11-24T13:56:47+00:00

Well, people who commit violent crime, especially against strangers are usually a very specific small subset of the population. Meanwhile, pretty much any man can, depending on circumstances, become a victim of a violent crime.

Meaning, the higher rate of being victimized really affects every man. The higher rate of being a perpetrator is completely unrelated to the vast majority of men.

You can check for various nations what percentage of people have a criminal record, keeping in mind that many of those will likely be non violent crimes.

Vaudeville_Clown · 2023-11-24T16:08:49+00:00

Hmm maybe,

"that may be, but I'm entitled to make absolutely sure I'm never targeted by this male-on-male lethal violence, right? I'm not going to intervene in any dangerous situation to protect anyone else"

Siganid · 2023-11-24T16:42:38+00:00

The numbers are skewed by innate bias.

Women are more abusive in relationships but don't get arrested. This carries over to all types of violence.

Women can wreck shit and walk away exponentially more often than men can.

ILoveTikkaMasala · 2023-11-25T05:18:17+00:00

Just bring up black on black crime and ask them the same question, most likely it's a liberal who would say that so it'll probably short circuit their brain

Jelooboi · 2023-11-25T06:35:05+00:00

"13 of them were women and children"

mdoddr · 2023-11-24T15:43:43+00:00

Blacks are killing blacks. Do you denounce black lives matter?

boomershack · 2023-11-23T22:19:19+00:00

The man is probably a bastard with no daddy and a single mama.

No-Cable7745 · 2023-11-23T20:23:35+00:00

Why would you feel the need to answer?

ImNotTheBossOfMe · 2023-11-23T19:51:45+00:00

I would like to see statistics over how common violence on men where victim has initiated the conflict. I don’t really hear about that many men walking around minding their own business getting murdered and beaten.

Nearby_Appearance289 · 2023-11-24T01:50:13+00:00

Someone's got to do the job right... bitch. /s

Don't forget the dramatic pause.

Make-TFT-Fun-Again · 2023-11-24T03:14:16+00:00

By saying that, you literally prove the male disposability hypothesis. Because men aren't just more drawn to crime due to their testosterone.

By default, their lives have no intrinsic value to society and thus they are more prone to risk-taking.

This is further highlighted by you saying that men being killed by men is okay, but women being killed by men isn't.

-----------------------------------------------------

If you want to go beyond a oneliner, here is my reasoning:

It is easy to understand why ethnic minorities are overrepresented in crime statistics. The less you are valued, the more likely you are to resort to crime. Through the lens of race theory, this premise is widely accepted.

But when we look at this issue through your supposed "gender lens", suddenly both men who commit crime AND the men they hurt have no-one to blame but themselves.

If we applied this gender lens to race, we shouldn't care about black on black crime either. Justice should only be served when black people commit crimes against white people. Which actually is what we see happening right now, except we call it racism.

Should we call your logic sexist then? Of course not. I would never accuse a woman of sexism, because *obviously* women can't be sexist, just like black people can't be racist. /s

Anyway, the answer to violence isn't only caring when women's lives are affected. Or "holding men more accountable", when they already serve more time for the same crime as women. In my opinion, it's valuing men's lives equally to women's lives.

Not that THAT will ever happen. But people claiming to be feminists, should really stop trying to gatekeep victimhood as a female issue. It's embarrassing both to them and the women they claim to represent.

LowPressureUsername · 2023-11-27T06:15:52+00:00

A victim is a victim. A male victim of a male perpetrator is just as much a victim as an African American at the hands of another African American. Just because someone who shares a characteristic with the victim committed the crime doesn’t make them second rate victims. Is a white women any less of a victim because she was raped by someone who shares the same skin color? Then why is a male corpse any lesser than a female corpse at the hands of a perpetrator that shares the same sex? So what?

Title	When talking about men being victims of violent crime at higher rates, what’s a good response to those who reply that it’s men killing men
Author	Danpackham
Upvotes	209
Comments	84
Date	November 23, 2023 6:38 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1827v7p/when_talking_about_men_being_victims_of_violent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-talking-about-men-being-victims-of-violent.1239180 https://theredarchive.com/post/1239180

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