My thoughts on PUA community and fulfilling healthy relationships. Long read, please take the time.

kalakalakalulu · 2011-08-19T15:54:53+00:00

[PART 2]

Short answer: Keep an open heart and mind.

Before anyone can truly find a relationship worth having, they must first have the tools to create their own world of happiness. This means knowing how to present yourself in favorable ways in ALL aspects. You need to know how to: dress properly, speak fluently, take care of your hygiene, show that you have purpose in life. In the beginning, it's fine that men/women are focusing only on improving their social life. However, if you spend too long on that and don't take the time to improve your own lifestyle, you'll fall flat.

What I mean by lifestyle is everything from your physical and mental health to your hobbies and interests. You had a bad childhood or you're still carrying around baggage? Cool, we all do. Work that shit out! Meditate, do forgiveness exercises, go through The Meditator's Handbook, hire a shrink if you need to. Whatever it takes to resolve all your past issues, do so. You're not physically active? Tough shit, you have no excuse not to be. With all the health benefits and aesthetic appeal you'll gain, you have no. fucking. excuse. If you're not a gym rat, then go hiking, biking, swimming, 4 wheeling, it doesn't matter. Find shit to do that challenges you each and every time.

No hobbies or interests outside of getting laid and video games? Fuck that. You know all that shit in the world you have no idea what or where it came from? Instead of googling, go experience it. If you start going after what you are curious about, you will instantly become happier. You'll always have something to do, something interesting to look forward to. New restaurant? Go get lunch one day; by yourself if need be. New bar? Fucking awesome, go grab a drink and shoot pool. Art/fashion show in town? May not be your thing (it's not entirely mine), but fuck it. Go out, experience it, and earn your opinion to dislike it if you so choose.

The more interesting your own life becomes, the less you'll care about meeting women and putting your sole measure of happiness into other people. You control the reins of your own happiness. This applies to being happy with women in one major way: your happiness is your own and you will always be gauging whether or not someone fits into that. When you have control over your own emotions, and KNOW you're a man of worth (by your actions and accomplishments), you will have a different view of the people you meet every day. A hot woman will no longer be just a hot woman. She'll be someone who you think could add to your happiness. So you go talk to her curious to discover the person behind the looks. If she doesn't fit into your idea of who you want, you move on. If she does, you grab her number and set up a date. My biggest point to make here is that when you are content with your own life to say "No" to people around you, you will truly have gotten to the point where a happy relationship is not even a worry for you. A happy relationship will come to fruition simply from you knowing exactly what you want. This is because you no longer need another person to complete you. Of course, you'll want to share your life with someone special, but you will be at a point where you're the one who decides that.

As for practical applications in social settings, there are some basic psychological principles that will help. First, understand the difference between I-It statements and I-You statements. There is a book by Daniel Goleman titled Social Intelligence. That book will do more for your game than any ebook from some random site. If you can grasp the concepts it details, you will be able to take your inner and social game to new heights. It goes into mirror neurons, personal statements, why honesty is attractive, and also gives research behind all of its statements. It's not the be all end all, but will help you regardless.

Next, learn all that you can on how to ground yourself. Find a way to to instantly center yourself and wash away any doubts in your mind. Those who have read my stuff before know I have a theory. I call it my "Bubble Theory". To visualize "owning your world" as some put it, imagine a bubble that spreads from your core to the world around you. It may start out small as you first begin working on yourself. However, as you become a more confident and comfortable person, the bubble will expand. In this bubble, you are its creator, its god, its source of power. You control what is in it, you control what enters/exits, and inside this bubble YOU are like a rock. Nothing bugs you, nothing fucks with you, nothing can affect you unless you allow it to. Believing that you have such power over your surroundings will spill over to the rest of your life. People will notice you, they will make sure things are to your liking, and you will become that man everyone wishes they were. It isnt' some new-age psycho babble, but simply a way to envision the epitome of nonreactiveness and a confident, sexual being.

I'm sure I rambled on in some parts, and could have clarified on others but I have things to do today. Critiques, healthy discussion, or additions are welcome.

Edit: Additional Info on Grounding and such

sixxis · 2011-08-19T17:50:24+00:00

My two cents on why PUA's struggle with LTRs: I think the PUA tends to focus on openers and meeting women. Once you've called a woman and start the dating process, very little of this information helps.

dconnorz · 2011-08-19T16:37:52+00:00

On top of all this, the community as a whole puts an ignorant rating system to women. Who gives a shit if you thought she was a 6 or 7? The dude next to you could think she is a 10... and it's WHOLLY possible that she is in fact a 10 to that one guy.

HB rating system is not based on attractiveness, but on approachability/receptiveness.

assholebiker · 2011-08-19T17:01:58+00:00

Someone like this seems to charge in every week or so, painting the community with a broad brush as social manipulators using routines to build a wall between themselves and others with the goal of having emotionless sex with hundreds of women they never speak to again.

Everyone comes here for his/her own reasons. Some of us want nothing more than a fulfilling emotional connection with one women while others just want to have a scored a few points or had a few adventures in their lives before they die while still others just don't want to die as virgins.

But as someone who has been somewhat active, I agree that the more you rehearse, the more you lose your ability to embrace the moment and really enjoy the spontaneity and if you study the material too much you'll find yourself doing nothing but microcalculating the points you just scored toward laying each girl. Beware.

Just please don't come in here and moralize about the right way to live. The material is about options, nothing more. Everyone will figure out what they find fulfilling on their own.

ThrowawayPUA · 2011-08-19T18:43:46+00:00

Quick suggestion from me, the king of the 5000 word, 5 part FR: do us a favor and put some tag like a bold [Part 2] at the top of your part 2, so we can pick it out more easily from the comment thread.

Anyway, I don't see any particular difficulty with PUAs having LTRs. Surely we who are rAFCs are doing a hell of a lot better than when we were AFCs. Having relationships is not just how we discover what girls are like in relationships. It's how we discover what we are like in relationships, and how we can grow and make those relationships more fulfilling.

Sed5 · 2011-08-19T21:09:49+00:00

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Everything you say is pretty obvious and easy to say for somebody who is at a point where he can choose between the women he meets rather than just feeling 'lucky' if a pretty girl gives him attention.

Congrats on you, applause, you're there. I am there too and it's lovely.

Having said that, it's still nice to talk/think about seducing ladies. And it's nice to exchange thoughts on that. And, it's even nicer to help each other out if a fellow man who isn't quite there yet needs some advice from fellow open-minded men.

And that's what we do here, nothing more, nothing less. We exchange thoughts, stories and advice about the first stages of interacting with women, and how to seduce them.

Want to know how to be fulfilling to her after you've connected well enough for her to want to sleep with you? Go to r/sex.

Want to exchange thoughts on the (often fascinating) things that come into play in relationships, connecting with women, etc? Go to r/2xchromosomes and r/relationships.

Want to hear funny okcupid stories? Go to r/okcupid.

Want to exchange thoughts about living in London? Go to r/london.

I subscribe to all of these, and they all have great on-topic conversations.

Just don't pretend you're the only one here who has seen the light. That said, thanks for putting such effort in your post, that's not something to be taken for granted and I respect it. And of course, glad you are at a point in your life where you can make a choice between girls rather than settling for what you can get, that's what we are all striving for in the end!

EDIT: oh, and btw:

I have lost track of how many times I've heard friends say they would never date a girl, but hang out with her because she is hot.

Get some cooler friends.

2011-08-19T19:13:55+00:00

Sort of reminds me on a post I wrote on an old account a while back, where I basically said that the tools of the seduction community are like a gun. You can use it for good or for evil. But if someone plays with guns for a hobby, people will be hesitant, unless they like guns too.

What you've said here in a nutshell, if I've understood, is "If you're concentrating on the seduction the whole time, you won't be able to have a functional LTR". I agree wholeheartedly and is part of the message we 'preach' at r/dating_advice (where there is a lot of seddit type material but packaged so that is accessible for people who are put off by the term 'seduction'. We also try to look at building the foundations of an LTR, rather than just getting a girl, which I believe is a huge shortcoming of the seduction community.

On that note, I have a friend who is a pua coach (also mods r/dating_advice) who has set up his own business which deals with pua material, as well as how to have a functional relationship.

Anyway: I agree... bit long though :P

AboveThee · 2011-08-19T21:09:33+00:00

What make's you think any of us want a fulfilling relationship... I enjoy fucking girls but I also really enjoy being alone.. I'm in real estate and I deal with people on a daily basis... I do focus on make the best possible me and frankly a relationship can be extremely distracting... I mean look how much you fucking wrote jesus... If there's one thing I remember from the mystery method it's to FOCUS ON THE MANY... and don't get caught up on one girl... this has nothing to do with being emotionally sterile but rather on the ability to STAY FOCUSED.

agroom · 2011-08-19T17:51:05+00:00

Man, I joined this forum to see of anyone was as jaded as me with "the scene." Honestly, I was out of the scene before I was even in it. Someone gave me a copy of The Game and it got me going. Read more material, watched his videos, talked with friends, etc. We went out a few times, did some material, got positive feedback. But as the OP said it completely ruined my personal dating scene as well as my evenings in general.

Before hearing any of this I loved approaching women. I was scared, excited, nervous, everything. it was fun. For the first 2-3 years after knowing all this, now all I kept doing was looking for tells, directing conversation, thinking of openers...well, you know. Honesty too, I got laid a LOT more w/o this. Maybe I'm one of the few lucky ones with natural charisma, inherent confidence, handsome, etc...but probably not :-p I've said this before here and I'll say it again...man just be yourself. You'll have so much more fun.

I'd also just like to clarify that "being yourself" does not mean picking your ass, belching, shoving Doritos down your face, etc. Don't mention you play 12 hours of video games a day on your first date. Take a shower, clean up, dress nice. Use some common sense. And with dating and confidence...I completely agree with the "fake it till you make it" strategy.

sedditlurker · 2011-08-19T18:52:43+00:00

TLDR bullet-point list of... points... raised. OP:

establishes the target audience as beginners
establishes the biggest problem for Seddit beginners: too many women fucked, not enough emotional connection
ascertains authority and status by informing the readers he chills out with models who roll deep with Drake and Kanye. They are not good enough for OP
informs readers of the importance of dressing properly, speaking well, going to the gym and taking care of hygiene. this has never been raised before around here!
makes a bold point that having an interesting life is cool
you (the reader) need to get a shrink if you need to
tells you to stop wasting time on Seddit and read paperback psychology instead
talks about some hippie bubble bullshit, or something

So I guess you have a book coming out...

rocketpants85 · 2011-08-19T17:59:11+00:00

However, without that emotional connection, it's masturbating between her legs.

Great phrasing. Great.

ge99 · 2011-08-19T18:43:54+00:00

I think this post is bullshit and you have basically created a thesis on based on assumptions and generalizations. Have any data to backup that PUAs don't have successful relationships?

Wish I had links to the presentations an articles but tons of PUA's talk about how they have/had an awesome LTR girlfriend.

PUA doesn't teach you how to be emotional detached. It teaches AFCs who fall for every girl that smiles at them to calm down realize that once they develop the skills to meet women their options are a lot more open.

madsmadsdk · 2011-08-19T16:52:40+00:00

Great read. Thank you!

2011-08-19T17:52:51+00:00

Well done, I am very glad someone brought these points up.

2011-08-19T19:29:25+00:00

You know son, sometimes, some people might not want the same thing as you.
This was the essential of my message, the following explanation is mostly rambling about the same thing. Feel free to ignore it. lol
Some people are bored of clubs, some people are bored of meaningless sex, but for some, LTR bore the shit out of them.
Sometimes you might NOT want emotional connection. You might not want to get involved seriously. You might want simple, fun, hot meaningless sex.
I think it's everyone privilege to decide what they want for themselves. And that might include trying out those thing as a social experiment, as if it's applied "social sciences".
Of course you can claim to take the high road by saying that everyone should have the virtues or the desires for LTR and making babies and having a familly, but that's as much listening to others to set your objective than you implied with following PUA "dogmas".
Is monogamy a natural state of thing, or is it a society enforced idea?
There are some animals who have "monogamous" relationship until the offsprings go on their own, but does it have to apply to us?
Maybe in a couple of decades the "atomic familly" won't even exist. People will choose mates in catalogs for procreation with the full understanding that they'll see their kids only one week out of two. I don't know, I'm speculating... but what I'm trying to say is that I don't know why I should be bound by any rules from either "sides".
I'm doing what I want, and my gauge is how I feel.
I don't want, or need, something serious right now. And that's all that matters.

However, letting her appearance dictate her worth is ignorant. Don't let the physical dictate your interest. If the only thing you are looking for is to bang good looking girl, then of course most of her worth is going to be her looks. It's like saying "Don't let the speed of a car dictate your choice" when what you want to do is race... It only depends on what you want.
I mean, if you want a wife who's a great cook and loves food, you'd probably do better chassing chubbies. Hahaha
[I kid, mostly, corellation does not imply causation and all, but you probably won't stuff your face as much if you go out with a girl who looks like a twig, it's all about your objectives.]

yokhai · 2011-08-19T20:52:22+00:00

The ranking system isn't about how hot you think she is. It's an analysis of what you think she values herself at. Hotness does equal value if that's what you value. If you want an attractive girl, then it is valuable. And a girls self-perceived hotness will affect the way she reacts to your attention. Thinking differently is just being naive.

I like the rest of what you've said. it's what I've been preaching around here for the past year. Good job.

Just remember, attractiveness of both parties does matter.

TrippinFantastic · 2011-08-20T05:19:29+00:00

I like the way you think sir. I like your style.

wesno · 2011-08-20T09:24:00+00:00

I'm confused. Are you reading old PUA stuff? The things you've said I've been hearing from PUAs for years. What you've expounded here is already the popular opinion (at least here and in the game blogosphere I read).

Nexism · 2011-08-21T15:02:55+00:00

I read your first paragraph, and immediately came up with this phrase, I think it will serve you greatly.

"Seddit teaches you how to be alpha, but alpha males are shit husbands".

eablokker · 2011-08-19T19:22:00+00:00

It's very simple. The skillset needed for meeting women and dating is a completely different skillset needed for keeping an LTR and marriage. Once you're married, it's a shame that you have to throw out all of your seduction skills and never use them again. But that's what you have to do. You say it's important to form emotional connections with women. However, forming a strong emotional connection first, without having had any physical contact or flirting, is going about things in the wrong order.

Your post is idealistic and impractical. I applaud you for the idealism. Keep in mind this subreddit is not just about following Tyler Durden, Mystery, Style, and the PUA industry. Some of us follow other systems like doing CBT exercises, and keeping up on the latest in social psychology research. Sometimes we follow no system and just go out and have a good time, being friendly with people, without routines and games.

I think you've totally missed the point about why PUAs tend to have a hard time getting into an LTR and just keep pursuing getting laid. It's about having a negative belief that if you are a virgin and don't have a girlfriend or you aren't getting laid, it means you're worthless as a man. So you want to get laid in order to feel worthwhile, but you find out that you still feel worthless. So you think you need to be with some even hotter woman to feel worthwhile. And the cycle continues. You can't really be in an LTR until you change that belief or find more internal ways of feeling like a worthwhile man instead of external.

nakedballsofrain · 2011-08-19T20:29:19+00:00

I found part 2 to be much better than part 1. Especially towards the end. Bubble theory!

2StandardDeviations · 2011-08-19T20:40:10+00:00

Do people that study PUA really have worse LTR issues than regular people?

Every WBAFC is having better LTRs by definition (having any relationship is more than zero).

Most RAFC will be in similar situations

And the guys that have a lot of options may be choosier, but that's not the same thing as being bad at LTRs, it's just a matter of not being interested in them at this point in your life.

Game has only enhanced my own LTRs.

Jessie_James · 2011-08-19T20:47:38+00:00

I agree with your general concept of why guys have a hard time getting into a LTR.

I used to date a lot, and after a few years I noticed a recurring theme: All these women would cheat on their BF, were stupid, and so forth. I came out of it being a misogynist. I literally hated women because I thought they were all shallow, had no integrity, and so forth. I literally swore off women for a number of years.

This will get downvoted for sure, but I came across Doc Love and his "Dating Dictionary". When I read it, I noticed it was poorly written, disorganized, and basically hard to follow. However, I got through it anyway.

It was only about a week later when I started to think about my past relations with women and realized that Doc Love had nailed the failure. This happened a few more times. I then read through the book a second time, this time a little more slowly and thoughtfully. All of the sudden dozens of past experiences came to light and I realized a lot of mistakes I had been making while dating.

I literally had been picking the wrong women. Sure, raise your standards they say, but what I realized was that my standards were false. They were not what I really needed, but what I desired. Case in point was that I only wanted to date women who would put out, made good money, were fun to be with, and so forth. Superficial bullshit, really. That was not what I NEEDED though, and therefore any relations with these women would fail.

Doc Love says:

The three major Female Trait qualities that men should be aware of and look for in a long term mate are: Integrity, made up of Loyalty, Trust, and Honesty; Giving; and Flexibility.

When I applied those three traits to most women I dated, they all failed. I started to look at women differently at that point, and quickly weeded out "bad" women. Since then, things have changed drastically and I am much happier.

There's been other stuff that has helped, but the basis that Doc Love laid out helped me. Perhaps it can help others as well.

johnny878 · 2011-08-19T22:32:02+00:00

probably because most guys turning into PUA are flawed in some way that makes them struggle with women, and just are able to get laid because they start actively trying hard thru the practice of PUA.

but that doesnt solve the flaws that will be uncovered in a long term relationship.

jamessnow · 2011-08-19T23:59:21+00:00

Many of the PUA here are poly and may have one or more LTR non-exclusive relationships. What is your take on that?

Sed5 · 2011-08-20T00:36:34+00:00

I'm definitely going to read this later but can someone please give me a summary of this?

Summum · 2011-08-20T01:44:57+00:00

Why would you namedrop Drake and Kanye ? What's the point ?

Naga14 · 2011-08-20T09:52:18+00:00

I'm not a fan of the idea that PUA or people who run routines are not being themselves. The amount of time in a conversation that "game" takes is miniscule compared to natural flirtation and actual conversation. Routine and game is spice on your personality, and at times it makes it more fun for you and the girl.

Also, I think your post comes off as a little bit "holier than thou," whether it is intended to or not. I'm sure many people had the same eye roll reaction when you felt the need to inform us of the hot models you roll with ;) I appreciate your insight though! That's a lot of stuff to think about :)

razqel · 2011-08-19T21:57:27+00:00

Props to you, bro, for having the courage to lay out some truth about the "dark side" of the community, as controversial as topic may be.

I agree with most, if not all, of what you said. Although there are people that claim that your statements are a gross over-generalization, there are many aspiring PUAs that fall into the traps of conventional community wisdom.

Many of the so-called PUA mindsets are taken too literally or to such extremes that they become dysfunctional (e.g., be non-reactive, liking one particular girl = oneitis). In some ways, they become what Neil Strauss termed "social robots"--seeing every interaction in terms of "game" and not allowing themselves to truly connect with people.

There's a lot of value in being sincere, genuine and honest to yourself and others. Sometimes people try so hard to learn the routines and techniques and openers that they forget how to be their best selves.

What I hope your post does is encourage others to critically evaluate everything they see in the community rather than take it as the absolute truth because some online stranger told them so. Even if something works, they should consider whether it's the kind of behavior and lifestyle that fits what they want (e.g., going to clubs and bars every week vs. day game vs. social circle building).

Jrix · 2011-08-20T16:12:55+00:00

Being a good PUA is about sitting your ass playing videogames all day and still being able to score a woman where and when you want.

Not improving your life to the point in understanding how women work cease to matter.

2011-08-19T19:24:35+00:00

You clearly have way too much free time if you have time to write this huge ass long essay on women.

Downvote me., I couldn't care less..OP time to go out and stop being on reddit.

Title	My thoughts on PUA community and fulfilling healthy relationships. Long read, please take the time.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	178
Comments	94
Date	August 19, 2011 3:54 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/jnyj8/my_thoughts_on_pua_community_and_fulfilling/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/my-thoughts-on-pua-community-and-fulfilling.1321487 https://theredarchive.com/post/1321487

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