Which tenet of red pill 'theory' do Blue Pillers have the most/strongest disagreements with

cherryCanSuckMyDick · 2017-11-01T21:23:10+00:00

Continuation from the previous post about ideological common ground between the blue and red pills. Yes I get that logically any blue-pillers out there are on...

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Male/female relationships are inherently antagonistic.
Women compartmentalize their attraction into two categories: sexual attraction and attraction for a relationship. Alpha traits belong to the former category and beta to the latter.
Some men are alpha and some men are beta.
Women settle for their husbands. Dead bedrooms and divorce happens because she settled for someone less sexually attractive than she was able to fuck in her youth.
Women love men for what men can do for them, but men love women for who they are.
Marriages fail because the man became too beta.
Only women are hypergamous.
Women have it easier in the RMP too.
There is a male sexual strategy and a female sexual strategy.
Women are disgusted by beta/omega men and think they are garbage.
Women view men as disposable.
Women only want Chad.
Basically anytime RP talks about how women feel and think, they are wrong.

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Male/female relationships are inherently antagonistic.

Male/female sexual strategy is absolutely antagonistic. Male/female relationships are, supposedly, compromises to ameliorate this antagonism. Both sides have to give in order to build something greater than themselves, but... in practice, I think women are the ones holding the bulk of the cards.

Women compartmentalize their attraction into two categories: sexual attraction and attraction for a relationship. Alpha traits belong to the former category and beta to the latter.

I'd argue that's almost how the terms are defined.

Some men are alpha and some men are beta.

I wish I didn't believe this, but I do. Some guys are smooth as fuck, and just present a charismatic, leadership vibe. Women melt in front of these men.

Women settle for their husbands. Dead bedrooms and divorce happens because she settled for someone less sexually attractive than she was able to fuck in her youth.

Women love men for what men can do for them, but men love women for who they are.

Yeah, this one's dumb.

Marriages fail because the man became too beta.

This can and does totally happen. Maybe not the only reason (I've known marriages that failed because the dude was too aggressive and potentially abusive), but it certainly happens.

Only women are hypergamous.

This one is true, in my view. As the more sensible R.P.ers say, don't hate the player, hate the game. Hypergamy is just female nature, and it arguably propelled humanity to be smarter, better, stronger, more capable humans.

It just sucks. We all want to be the biggest, baddest motherfucker, though, and so it sucks when a lady you're pining after goes for your taller, manlier friend. Nothing says "You're just not good enough" quite as painfully as that does.

Women have it easier in the RMP too.

Unsure. They certainly have it easier in the S.M.P, but they could well have it harder in the R.M.P. due to men being horny bastards.

There is a male sexual strategy and a female sexual strategy.

There... c'mon, are you serious? Of course there is a male sexual strategy and a female sexual strategy, you can't seriously believe that there isn't. This isn't a Red Pill belief, this is surface-level observable to everyone!

Women are disgusted by beta/omega men and think they are garbage.

I'm pretty ambivalent on this. If they didn't, the nuclear rejection wouldn't be a thing.

Women view men as disposable.

I agree with this one. Society generally views men as disposable, and the only "men" women don't view as disposable are their own sons and husbands. At best, they perceive other men to be neutral, and at worst they perceive them as active threats.

Women only want Chad.

I disagree with this one, as well.

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Why does every trait have to be either alpha or beta? There are probably a lot of traits that can be left off of that spectrum entirely.

I disagree, though, that affection and provider traits aren't ever alpha or beta. At the very least, the way those traits are displayed is directly connected to a man's alpha/beta balance. Examples:

An alpha man will show his woman affection but he won't shower her in it unconditionally. Giving another person affection when they haven't done anything to deserve it is totally beta. So "displaying affection" in a vacuum isn't alpha or beta, but the frequency and the context makes it alpha/beta.

Same thing, more or less, with being a provider. Alphas can be providers and providers can be alphas. But a guy who takes a woman out of his league on a date and automatically pays for everything, in exchange for the slight chance of sex, is beta. A guy who relies on his bank account to lock down a woman who otherwise wouldn't spare him a passing glance is beta. He is submitting, either to the woman herself or to a certain alpha fucks/beta bucks dichotomy presented by that particular woman's sexual strategy.

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Oh come on. Some of these I can't even see how you could argue that they're not true.

Women settle for their husbands. Dead bedrooms and divorce happens because she settled for someone less sexually attractive than she was able to fuck in her youth.

Of course this isn't true for every married couple, but it's a very common scenario and most people realize this.

Marriages fail because the man became too beta.

It happens often though, doesn't it? Men become submissive and complacent after being married too long, and his wife just becomes less attracted to him because of it.

There is a male sexual strategy and a female sexual strategy.

Do I even have to say anything about this one? Most biologists would agree. And if they don't, they can at least agree that most animals exhibit this. Do they really want to continue insisting that humans are one of the exceptions?

Women are disgusted by beta/omega men and think they are garbage.

Pretty much everyone is disgusted by men who act like doormats, aren't they?

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I am not red pill (happily married to a woman who basically doesn't exist according to them) so I agree with much of your list. However, I think you are misrepresenting a few points, where I don't completely agree with them but I can see where they are coming from.

Of course, for any given thing, there's someone who believes it, so I'm not saying nobody believes this, rather that it's not what I understand most of them to think.

"Women compartmentalize their attraction..." I don't think it's literally a dichotomy as you suggest. Rather, I believe that women, like men, look for many things in a partner. Most people would love a sexy, intelligent, loyal, caring, responsible partner. But in the real world rarely do you get those things in one person. And there are many people who have either "boring but reliable and honest" traits or "exciting and attractive but cadish" traits, which are somewhat mutually exclusive by definition.

If someone is looking for a fling, then the latter are relatively speaking more important. If they are looking for a committed relationship, then the former gains in relative importance.

Men do this as well as women. However, it makes sense to me that women do it more, as the social pressure to get married is greater on women by a certain age than it is for men. Biologically, men also have a much longer reproductive window than women, so it's not as necessary for them to settle down as early if they want to start a family.

"Women settle for their husbands". I would definitely not say that every woman does, but I think that many women do. Specifically, I think most RP believers think that women settle later in life. And i think that the mite you think you are settling for someone, the less happy your relationship.

A woman that marries her college boyfriend isn't necessarily settling, but a woman who is in her early 30s is more likely to be settling for someone who she's not as attracted to.

This also passes the smell test for me - not to say its true for everyone, but if you agree that:

the guys who are both sexy and are good partners tend to get paired off earlier (as more women like these guys, right?)
so the remaining guys are less likely to be both very attractive AND good partners, leading us to the situation above.
so most people need to settle, but since due to a combination of biology and social expectations, women tend to do so more than men.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't believe women look for flings. Perhaps some masculine-minded women do this, but the majority of women only have casual sex in an attempt to find a relationship. So it wouldn't make sense that the criteria for casual sex and relationships would be different.

Women settle for their husbands". I would definitely not say that every woman does, but I think that many women do. Specifically, I think most RP believers think that women settle later in life. And i think that the mite you think you are settling for someone, the less happy your relationship.

I disagree with this also, since men become more attractive as we age. The longer we wait, the more likely we are to find someone that we actually like as opposed to the first guy that paid us any attention. This is evidenced by the fact that the older women are when they get married, the less likely they are to get divorced. If what you said is true, then it should be the opposite.

A woman that marries her college boyfriend isn't necessarily settling, but a woman who is in her early 30s is more likely to be settling for someone who she's not as attracted to.

He is likely more attractive to her than her college boyfriend, simply because men in their 30's are more attractive than 21 year old men. Also, you may find this surprising, but even though younger women are more attractive, generally speaking, they are more insecure than older women. The younger the woman is, the more likely she has just married you because she's just afraid that she'll never find anyone else better. She doesn't know her own value yet.

the guys who are both sexy and are good partners tend to get paired off earlier (as more women like these guys, right?)

Yes. This is also true for women. Attractive women get paired off earlier.

so the remaining guys are less likely to be both very attractive AND good partners, leading us to the situation above.

No, because as a whole men get more attractive as they age.

so most people need to settle, but since due to a combination of biology and social expectations, women tend to do so more than men.

Women don't settle unless she has kids or needs money. Otherwise they would prefer to be alone rather than be with someone they aren't attracted to. That's apparently why there are so many incels. If women settled, then these men could just promise commitment and get girlfriends.

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They can do yes, it's entirely at their discretion. Europe is negative on free speech. If someone takes offense and the police don't like it either they'll visit you or you'll get called in. Usually it's a warning, but if it's said online there are powers in place for them to shut down your social media presence.

It's unlikely you'd get anything more than disgusted looks and maybe in a big city a leftist type calling you out on it publicly for your example though. But it wouldn't take much further than that example for the threat of police intervention to be there. Put anything with an expletive in there or a slur that can be interpreted as racial and yeah, can be screwed. A good example was after Koln a co-worker of mine put on her Facebook "These men need to start acting like human beings instead of fucking monkeys." That got her a visit and a warning, because 'monkeys' was interpreted as being a racial slur.

Don't get me wrong it's not common, but the threat is there.

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You work in healthcare? So do I! I knew we were kindred spirits. How’s your vaginal basket weaving going? I’m almost done with mine, just waiting for my alpha to come and approve it and tell me I did a good job!

Teehee.

On a more serious note though, I agree, I have experienced some of the most despicable acts from foreign men within the hospital. Especially towards their wives. This Muslim Arab man who’s wife was just recovering from a particularly nasty Pseudomonas infection (she was barely out of the ICU) kept asking us when we were going to discharge her, because he needed her to take care of the house, cook, clean and take care of the children. He was so rude and so callous. I was absolutely disgusted. He really tested my professionalism that day. He kept trying to convince her that she feels better. Can you imagine? Poor wife was so tired and so sick she was just watching and she couldn’t even say anything. I had to call one of the senior residents to talk to him because I had started getting angry. Lol they have a lot more patience than I do.

I even lived in a nonwestern country for a while, so I’ve even seen a lot worse first hand. Men there have all the power and a lot of them treat their wives like shit. When men complain about feminism here, I feel bad sometimes but I know that the reason I have it much better here and I’m not treated like cattle is because of feminism. When either gender has all the power, they tend to abuse it. It’s really sad.

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We actually had a patient where the male head of the family tried to suggest when we went into the room we cover our heads and we said *&^%$# no. I have no problems respecting the cultural beliefs of others in a healthcare setting as long as it does not involve me adapting to their cultural demands. Sorry, Bro, you're in my country and we're treating your family member and I will do everything to make your family member better but not that, leave and get treated somewhere else if you don't like it. Some of it is class, we treated the child of a famous Bollywood couple and they did not want us taking his vital signs at inconvenient times or doing a bunch of other things we finally sent in one of the Indian attendings to explain the whole your child could die thing. I think in many countries nurses do not do as much scope of care wise as they do in North America. We have had people get very upset to find out the nurses actually give the key treatments not the doctors.

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Trouble is, we don't know which millions earnestly mean that, and which millions will look the other way when their ilk commit violence. I coexist with Christians all the time. Some of them are over the top, some of them are even crazy, but very, very rarely do we have instances of violence committed by Christians, for religious reasons. That is not the case of Muslims in their own countries, to say nothing of Muslims in what they might consider the depraved and hedonist West.

Either way, it's not our job to right every wrong in the world. America is not a charity, we get to look to our own once in a goddamn while, and we're not obligated to let in half a million "refugees" with birth rates that are eight times our own to satiate your white guilt. I think a much, much better solution would be to cooperate with their countries, to get them to be stable, productive, contributing members of the global community. When that happens, I'd be much more amenable to lowering barriers of immigration - but right now they're blowing each other up with chemical weapons over whether or not establishing a medieval religious caliphate is a good idea or not.

It's less the "living alongside other cultures peacefully" and more the "join the modern world" that I'm not seeing Muslim cultures doing - and it's preposterous to hear blues defend this nonsense. These are some of the most socially conservative peoples in the world.

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AWALT literally says that women like me (who aren't the cookie cutter type) aren't worth even considering that we exist, so that.

This is more a libertarian issue and less RP-specific, but it's very common in RP subreddits and RP users on PPD (the "men don't have a responsibility to tell their friends not to rape, women have a responsibility to not get raped" people). The antisociety bullshit where they think that the only person people have to care about is themselves, and they forget they live in a fucking society with other people. If everyone only cared about themselves, then 1 or 2 psychos would take control of everything, and nobody would be around to stop them because "none of my business". To me, when you live in a society, you are using things that the society is providing for you just by being a functioning society (safety, low crime rate - and if you're saying "the law is providing that" ask yourself why some neighborhoods are safer than others even with the same laws, support system, being in a society with other people is a benefit to itself, most people don't want to live alone in a ghost town), living in a society means that you have a duty to give back to society as best as you can. And if you don't want to do that and you just want to do your own stuff, then you're free to live alone in the woods away from the rest of society. If you don't want to give back to society to the best of your ability, then don't take from it either.

Also the "as long as it's not illegal it's fine, who gives a shit about morals" RPers.

[–]cherryCanSuckMyDick[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

This is more a libertarian issue and less RP-specific, but it's very common in RP subreddits and RP users on PPD (the "men don't have a responsibility to tell their friends not to rape, women have a responsibility to not get raped" people). The antisociety bullshit where they think that the only person people have to care about is themselves, and they forget they live in a fucking society with other people. If everyone only cared about themselves, then 1 or 2 psychos would take control of everything, and nobody would be around to stop them because "none of my business". To me, when you live in a society, you are using things that the society is providing for you just by being a functioning society (safety, low crime rate - and if you're saying "the law is providing that" ask yourself why some neighborhoods are safer than others even with the same laws, support system, being in a society with other people is a benefit to itself, most people don't want to live alone in a ghost town), living in a society means that you have a duty to give back to society as best as you can. And if you don't want to do that and you just want to do your own stuff, then you're free to live alone in the woods away from the rest of society. If you don't want to give back to society to the best of your ability, then don't take from it either.

society is a transactional deal, if a person does not want to participate because they believe rightly or wrongly that the deal is not in their best interests, you cannot force them to participate

This seems to be a deepening ideological divide in our society these days

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Just because I live around others, doesn't mean I have to care about anybody else. Society doesn't provide things to me without charge. I pay my "entry fee" in form of taxes.

People treat you with decency. The person who walked by you on the street could have yelled "fucking asshole" at you for no reason except that they woke up on the wrong side of bed and felt shitty about having to go to work on a rainy day. But they don't, because society. People open the door for each other. If you're running in the rain and you're trying to get into your apartment, and there's someone at the door, they will probably hold it open for you. People are in general nice. Let's not ruin that by taking it for granted.

If you drop a $5 dollar bill, most people would pick it up and tell you dropped it and give it back to you rather than just taking it. I've even had someone tell me I dropped a $20 bill and gave it back.

I don't need to give back to society to the best of my ability; our contribution comes from the taxes that are stolen from us.

Money isn't the only way society contributes to each individual member of the society, read above.

Also, regarding the "as long as it's not illegal it's fine" motto, what exactly is wrong with that?

At least be consistent. If you base your actions on the law that also means no weed, no drugs. You can't be selective and say "well, weed is a law I don't like, so who cares" and still say that you base your actions on the law. Most of the "as long as it's not illegal it's fine" people on PPD also smoke weed, which is illegal in most states. That's hypocrisy.

Also what's wrong with thinking that as long as it's not illegal it's fine? Because I don't want to live with a bunch of douchebag assholes in society, but I don't want to live in a totalitarian big brother world that has to create laws to regulate every bit of human behavior. Hence I expect people to regulate themselves and act properly without harming others.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

This is more a libertarian issue and less RP-specific, but it's very common in RP subreddits and RP users on PPD (the "men don't have a responsibility to tell their friends not to rape, women have a responsibility to not get raped" people).

In the thread you mentioned, both Cross and I were intentionally driving the point we made earlier this week home even further which was in response to all the "why should women care about the plight of men collectively?"

Women insist that "we don't have to try to fix the dating market" just because many men are miserable and lonely to the point of being suicidal.

That's fine, but then why should we as men collectively care about making the "need to get shit-faced drunk"-market better for women? We should force men to attend consent courses and lecture our friends and buddies and strangers just so that college girls can have a more fulfilling party and casual sex life?

Nope, I am not playing that game anymore. I'll give these women the same advice that incels get:

Find a better social circle
Don't be a pushover, learn to set boundaries
Stop being insecure
Hit the gym

She just needs to spend her time with men who don't think that surprise anal and surprise bareback are perfectly okay. She needs to spend her time with people who care about her without needing to be taught to care about her. --> Problems solved

If she doesn't want to spend time with normal guys, fine, but why the hell should normal guys then feel obligated to teach the men she wants to hang out with?

I swear, the moment women make any effort to make the dating market a better place for average men, I'll be the first to make an effort to make the "getting shit-faced drunk"-markets a better place for women. I'd even make an effort to end slut-shaming. (And that's saying something).

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I just think that if we're going to make an argument "if you won't fix X then I won't fix Y" then it should at least include some discussion on what exactly they could do to fix X, and whether that's reasonable to expect. If the answer is "it's not reasonable to expect them to fix X, but it's also not reasonable to expect us to fix Y" then the point seems convoluted. Why not just start by explaining that it's not reasonable to expect you to fix Y? That's really the main point. What happens with X doesn't really matter if it's not reasonable to expect you to fix Y.

Also, I don't know how comparable X and Y even are here. I see a fundamental difference between hoping that people step in to help you have more sex (more broadly: to help you get things you want), and hoping that people step in to stop you from being raped (more broadly: to stop actual injustices from being perpetrated against you). I completely understand that there are limits to how much the second one can be expected (particularly when intervening is a safety risk), but I think it can at least be expected more than the first one.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I just think that if we're going to make an argument "if you won't fix X then I won't fix Y" then it should at least include some discussion on what exactly they could do to fix X, and whether that's reasonable to expect.

They keep telling us that X isn't their problem and that we need to solve it ourselves by doing Z.

Now I am pointing out that Y isn't our problem and they can solve it themselves by doing exactly the same thing Z.

Z = Find a better social circle, don't be an insecure pushover and hit the gym.

I want everybody to make up their own mind about what this means.

Also, I don't know how comparable X and Y even are here. I see a fundamental difference between hoping that people step in to help you have more sex (more broadly: to help you get things you want), and hoping that people step in to stop you from being raped (more broadly: to stop actual injustices from being perpetrated against you).

The answer is very simple.

They aren't comparable because you choose to look at completely different things. Both X and Y consist of point A and B.

Incels, low betas' problem:

A: "I want to enjoy dating, I want to have romance and I want to have sex" --> B: gets nothing but humiliation, rejection and pain and maybe even develops mental disorders or becomes suicidal because he can't bear the loneliness anymore.

Women's problems:

A: "I want to get shit-faced drunk with whomever and whenever I want" --> B: gets raped.

Now, what happens here is simple and it's what anti-reds do a lot:

You compare women's B to incels' A. And not only that, you frame A as "he just wants more sex".

Now all I am doing is comparing women's A to incels' A. "He wants to enjoy dating and have romance and sex" to "she wants to get shit-faced drunk with whomever and whenever she wants".

That is a fair comparison.

You could also compare the Bs and it would be fair:

"Many women get raped" to "many men suffer extreme loneliness."

That would be a level where most guys would be willing to talk about it.

If that was too complicated, I'll try to make it clear by changing your one paragraph

I see a fundamental difference between hoping that people step in to help you have more sex (more broadly: to help you get things you want), and hoping that people step in to ~~stop you from being raped~~ make sure that you can enjoy getting shit-faced drunk with strangers

Oh and remember that the whole discussion started with talking about mandatory consent classes. Maybe you missed a bit of the build-up.

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Exactly. That's what I am trying to say.

To be honest, I probably would step in if somebody tried to push himself on a black-out drunk girl, just because I love getting into fights.

But that wasn't really the point Cross and I were making in the original comment chain.

It was about mandatory consent classes and how the men who aren't rapists would still benefit from taking consent classes because they would learn how to step in and stop other men from pushing themselves on women.

And that's where we chime in and ask "Wtf? So you want to raise a male protector army for partying women or what?"

Seriously, if anybody wants to step in, fine, respect, great...but basically drafting them through consent classes?

Nope.

If they had "Men are 4 to 5 times more likely than women to kill themselves. Here is how you can recognise symptoms and support struggling men" mandatory classes, then yeah, I'd be okay with drafting men through mandatory consent classes.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm purple so I admit I'm not blue, but here is where I disagree with TRP

The extreme biological determinism. Biology is surely an influence and actually matters, but its one of several factors in a complex interaction between nature, nurture and environment.
"Women are children/teenagers." This isn't true, but women are given cultural license to avoid responsibility and rationality however. We need to start demanding more of women, but they can obviously handle it when they have to.
Men can love unconditionally but women cannot. Bullshit. No one loves or lusts unconditionally. Love is earned. Love is special. "Love everyone" destroys the value of love just like inflation destroys the value of money.
Women are attracted to men who are completely dominant over them. This is untrue. Any romance novel shows the desire is for a man who is the overlord of everyone else but is on some level dependent on the woman. Even classic rape and 'stalking is love' fantasies are really about this, showing how much this powerful and dangerous man needs her.
The idea that women who sleep around are psychologically damaged as a result of doing so. Even if sleeping around gives women 'excessively high standards' the solution is to lower the exit costs faced by men going into relationships (i.e. to make divorce-rape impossible, make false accusations harder to get away with etc), not to attempt to resurrect the stud-slut double standard (a standard which, in fact, is mostly maintained by women in order to prop up the Pussy Cartel).

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]cherryCanSuckMyDick[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Men can love unconditionally but women cannot. Bullshit. No one loves or lusts unconditionally. Love is earned. Love is special. "Love everyone" destroys the value of love just like inflation destroys the value of money.

maybe better phrased as "Men can love blindly but women cannot (or generally will not)".

Women are attracted to men who are completely dominant over them. This is untrue. Any romance novel shows the desire is for a man who is the overlord of everyone else but is on some level dependent on the woman. Even classic rape and 'stalking is love' fantasies are really about this, showing how much this powerful and dangerous man needs her.

The idea that women who sleep around are psychologically damaged as a result of doing so.

Im occasionally really puzzled by the ideas outsiders have of what TRP people think. You do realize one of the most common mantras that gets repeated in TRP is "Shes not Yours, its just your turn"?

Even if sleeping around gives women 'excessively high standards' the solution is to lower the exit costs faced by men going into relationships (i.e. to make divorce-rape impossible, make false accusations harder to get away with etc), not to attempt to resurrect the stud-slut double standard (a standard which, in fact, is mostly maintained by women in order to prop up the Pussy Cartel).

Hahaha you talk about that like its going to happen tommorow.

If even just divorce-rape was legally axed tommorow, youd be blown away by how fast a lot of the MRA community would disappear. Its probably the number one issue that holds the movement together

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I'm sure it can happen somewhere but social approval matters a lot to a woman, and even women who are coming from emotionally abusive relationships with the worst narcissists want better for their lives.

You might find women who are young and maybe broke financially...but that doesn't mean the women are turned on by rude men they just don't know they can find a better situation.

That may be your experience, Im only attempting to describe the TRP view on the subject. I dont have massive statistical surveillance studies on hand to prove or disprove one point of view, so we cant truly make a conclusion based on anything other than anecdotal personal evidence.

That seems to be the issue with most of these debates, we know one or both of the models must be false, but properly testing them is difficult because we can collect data, but its extremely difficult to properly deal with non-response bias, sampling bias, and confirmation bias in any sort of human social data. As a result nothing ever truly gets resolved between TRP and TBP, both sides have contradicting but unfalsifiable hypotheses that still fit the data well enough to work.

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