Stealthing - what are your thoughts?

EliteSpartanRanger · 2017-04-26T00:18:47+00:00

I'd consider it rape.

Consent was established under the condition that they're wearing a condom. Stealthing breaks that condition and therefore it takes away the consent.

GinSmokeLies · 2017-04-26T01:20:10+00:00

I'll never understand why men want to forego the ONE birth control option that's actually in their control.

I actually had an ex try to do this a couple of times. I don't think I was raped, but it's certainly a huge violation of trust and a fucked up thing to do to someone. Even more fucked up to do it to a stranger (and stupid, considering you have no idea what kinds of diseases they may have.)

That said though, I feel like this is probably much ado about nothing. Do I believe some dumbass guys do this? Yes (like I said, I've encountered it myself.) Do I believe it's some widespread trend sweeping the nation? Nah.

HugMuffin · 2017-04-26T00:27:32+00:00

Whether this is rape or not doesn't seem relevant to me. It's morally wrong: end of story.

uto-uto · 2017-04-25T23:52:43+00:00

i don't think i'd personally consider it rape, but still a disgusting and terrible thing. also is a setback for more male birth control options. if you won't even use condoms...

more cases of a vocal/weird minority ruining things for everyone. men, you should be upset about this too.

EmMeo · 2017-04-26T09:43:16+00:00

I 100% consider it rape.

If a guy says to a girl "I only have sex bareback" and the girl says "no, I don't want to have sex with you unless with a condom." then the guy says "Ok I'll wear a condom" but secretly takes it off during - he's doing the thing she said no to.

Or another way of putting it: Is secretly cutting the ropes on someone's parachute murder?

verifiabilityagility · 2017-04-26T20:36:56+00:00

I encourage everyone commenting to read Alexandra Brodsky’s full 28 page paper if you want to fully understand what's going on here.

What immediately stood out to me was the obvious lack of sources to back up the claim that “the practice is widespread and known” with “an online sub-community of perpetrators” gloating about stealthing people. However it is important to note that Brodsky only provides 2 examples of these online communities. One being (a group of terrible people on the now defunct experienceproject.com)http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Remove-The-Condom-Without-Them-Knowing-During-StealthSex/2441931, a group that - before the website shut down in April 21, 2016 - had a whopping 565 people that were either trolling or actually enjoyed discussing their adventures in stealthing people. Interestingly enough, Brodsky failed to mention that woman were also a part of this group. In a (post titled “More FunThan You Think”)http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Remove-The-Condom-Without-Them-Knowing-During-Stealth-Sex/527307 a user named kita21 remembers, “ when i was 17 my bf at the time sliped off the condom while we changed positions and came inside of me. i didnt get pregnant but i guess thats what started my impregnation risk fantasy. he actually used the excuse "well, the damage is done so why not live it up tonight".lol “

If Brodsky was truly trying to be objective and look at what she calls a “phenomenon” without bias, omitting the numerous posts by females in the same perverted group as the males, probably wasn’t a good idea. However, they are indeed there for all to see. Some might say, “Well how do we know a man didn’t just post those?” How do we know that anyone is who they say the are online, or what they’re saying is true? We don’t, and therein lies the major flaws of this study; the other being that due to the nature of Brodsky’s work, she is not impartial. From the tone of the paper, heavily unbalanced sources, and lack of conflicting viewpoints, it is evident that if she wants to talk about law, she should learn in class that laws aren’t based on just the facts you pick and choose.

The other huge source she gives us for an internet stealther breeding ground is (shut down as well, previously ran by a relentless sick-fuck named Mark Bentson)http://iblastinside.com/2012/06/top-10-stealthing-tips/. He is the “author” that Brodsky quotes in the section about man on man stealthing, but she names him earlier on BEFORE the paragraph about man on woman stealthing in the group we just discussed.

Broadsky states:

“Stealthing is controversial,” writes Mark Bentson, who runs a website dedicated to teaching others how to trick their sexual partners into condom-less sex. “But it’s also a reality. If you want to do it, you need to know how.”

Not sure if it’s just me, but it seems like she’s trying to bring a face and a name to stealthing - which Mark Bentson is - but by stating his name before the paragraph regarding man on woman stealth, and not using one of the many quotes where it’s 100% obvious that he’s only talking about male on male sex on his website - it seems like she wants that quote from Mark to appear like he’s talking about stealthing women.

Notice how she says he runs a site, “teaching others how to trick their sexual partners into condom-less sex.” She’s not wrong, but she would have been 100% accurate if she replaced “others” with “gay men”. By not naming genders and putting his quote two paragraphs before she mentions a, “website dedicated to giving men advice about removing condoms during sex with other men, the author presents a scenario…” it becomes obvious that she’s trying to separate Bentson’s quote from the paragraph about his site. However she does cite the quote from “the author” of the gay sex page as Bentson “Bentson, supra note 17 (emphasis added)” but why try to make it seem like its not him in the passage and why add emphasis? Probably because if you do your research you’ll discover that stealthing is a problem...in gay male on male sex culture. All you need to do is scroll down through the comments on Bentson’s page and read the stories of how many gay men have gotten AIDS because of this practice and are speaking out against him for being a sick fuck.

The majority of the remaining citations given by Brodsky to support this “widespread” issue are cited as email and telephone conversations she’s had with women who have been “stealthed”.

Wikipedia’s regulations on verifiability come to mind when trying to articulate the issue with Brodsky’s sources.

They state that, “Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.” Brodsky’s sources simply do not back up the claim that this is widespread and that a few hundred fucked up men and women on a forum constitutes a community that we should be concerned about.

I’m more concerned about 4chan to tell you truth.

In the end, this paper does a really great job of sensationalizing an issue that is killing gay men, and for coherent adult heterosexuals comes down to communication and making good decisions about who you fuck - seem like it's a women's issue.

soccerstar77 · 2017-04-25T23:54:30+00:00

It's their penis, and they can put a condom on and keep it on, and put another one if need be. They have complete control in terms of birth control.

What happened to abortion being a women's right? Since when does birth control belong to men? Isn't this something women want control over?

lbspredh · 2017-04-26T06:49:21+00:00

it is rape, they didnt consent to the sex act being done to them.

IIHotelYorba · 2017-04-26T09:52:27+00:00

Few things come to mind:

These guys are SUPER fucking pathetic
Most of them are probably just lying and posting heir fantasies
Ironically, girls often don't care if you don't put a condom on. Sex with you is a big deal and being ok with it means psychologically being ok with becoming pregnant by you.
It's often harder to put the condom ON because to the girl it is this psychological rubicon of her agreeing to sex, rather than it "just happening in the moment." It makes them feel slutty.

goatismycopilot · 2017-04-26T13:40:56+00:00

This is why casual sex is not great for many women, you are like going to expose yourself to people who are total strangers who may enjoy high risk behaviors that have a negative impact. That is why casual/ONS sex is not worth it. So yup its wrong and the takeaway is ONS is a high risk choice.

fiat_lux_ · 2017-04-25T23:56:42+00:00

Not rape, but some kind of sexual battery.

"Semen battery." ~Atlasb

The best take on it, imo.

Five_Decades · 2017-04-26T02:27:53+00:00

Not rape, but sexual battery.

cidiera · 2017-04-28T00:50:29+00:00

Last year, I had this happen to me twice in the span of one month with 2 different men. It happens, and I felt completely violated afterwards. It's a shitty thing to do to someone, and it is not what I consented to.

HighResolutionSleep · 2017-04-26T01:14:34+00:00

Condoms are abysmal as birth control, to the point where it might actually be irresponsible to call it birth control. Would you call the pull-out or fertility awareness methods "birth control"? Because the condom really isn't that much better with a failure rate of 16%.

Where women have been granted full, guaranteed control over the human reproductive system, there is no excuse to hold men presumptively accountable for her choice to use it-- no matter how much birth control is available to him.

Much like the public's disposition towards the myriad of ways men are vulnerable to women in the reproductive dimension, I'm not too worried about this. We only need to find a tiny group of men talking about this in order to have a fit of hysteria over it (with zero confirmed cases, so far as I can gather). I have no outrage to spare.

It's legal when women do it to men.

OurThrownAwayDreams · 2017-04-26T03:27:14+00:00

Don't be a fool, wrap your tool!

nemma88 · 2017-04-26T09:51:44+00:00

This has precedence for being considered rape under English law. - Sex was agreed with the condition, with the condition not being met there is no consent.

Section 74 has recently been considered by the High Court and the Court of Appeal in a series of cases where ostensible consent in relation to sexual offences was considered not to be true consent, either because a condition upon which consent was given was not complied with or because of a material deception (other than one which falls within section 76 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 [SOA]). The resultant judgments identified three sets of circumstances in which consent to sexual activity might be vitiated where the condition was breached.

One of those circumstance is the condom removal. One was ejaculating inside the vagina when it was agreed beforehand to withdraw;

"She was deprived of choice relating to the crucial feature on which her original consent to sexual intercourse was based. Accordingly her consent was negated. Contrary to her wishes, and knowing that she would not have consented, and did not consent to penetration or the continuation of penetration if she had any inkling of his intention, he deliberately ejaculated within her vagina. In law, this combination of circumstances falls within the statutory definition of rape".

These of course are specific cases and 'common sense' prevalence I believe is quite good in English courts.

I do see it pretty much the same as above. If I consent to sex with condoms, I'm not consenting to sex without condoms.

EDIT: The third example is woman who was posing as a man, so there was a woman ruled against in case anyones not feeling equal enough in the consent debate.

EDIT2; In case anyone was wandering about the statutory definition of consent in these circumstances

Section 74 defines consent as 'if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice'. Prosecutors should consider this in two stages. They are:

Whether a complainant had the capacity (i.e. the age and understanding) to make a choice about whether or not to take part in the sexual activity at the time in question.

Whether he or she was in a position to make that choice freely, and was not constrained in any way. Assuming that the complainant had both the freedom and capacity to consent, the crucial question is whether the complainant agrees to the activity by choice.

midnightvulpine · 2017-04-26T10:15:24+00:00

Stealthing is bad. I don't know if I'd go as far as calling it rape, but it's an obvious violation due to the danger it involves.

mwarg · 2017-04-26T03:44:19+00:00

she's not in control of her birth control failing.

But men are always in control of their birth control failing? What.

Battle-Scars · 2017-04-26T04:52:23+00:00

Is it hard for you to tell if a man is wearing a condom or not?

sunkindonut149 · 2017-04-26T15:50:08+00:00

What do I think? Welcome to herpes

ScubaDuba672 · 2017-05-02T11:59:13+00:00

It is definitely sexual assault. I feel totally violated just when a guy thinks it's ok to 'slip the tip in' when you have been clear that condoms are a requirement not an option. They don't care to ask if you're on birth control. In their mind they may think they're clean but they don't ask if I think I'm clean.

As a single mid 30s woman I also don't know if I could make the choice to have an abortion in the case of accidental pregnancy. I don't want to rely solely on the pill because I don't want to risk having to consider that decision.

AutoModerator · 2017-04-25T23:50:33+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

whichbladeN · 2017-04-25T23:58:11+00:00

It's not rape. It's called reproductive coercion.

ManSentHisOwnWay · 2017-04-26T08:54:54+00:00

It's incredibly fucked up. I don't know if it's rape, I'll let the lawyers among us decide that but it's certainly morally wrong.

And about the reasons behind it, I'm guessing these are guys with a very specific fetish. I get it, I've got similar kinks but involving other people in your kinks without their knowledge isn't okay to put it mildly. But for them that's probably part of what arouses them so much.

Imnotmrabut · 2017-04-26T18:19:22+00:00

What is Stealthing?
Stealthing is a form of sneakily compromising, tampering with or removing a condom
Stealthing can involve someone strategically damaging a condom before intercourse, or the stealthy removal of the condom during intercourse. In the practice of condom stealthing, either party can be the deceptive one.
The receiving partner can damage the condom, either by poking holes in it, or suggesting to use a non-condom safe lubricant, like oil. On the other hand, the non-receptive partner can take the condom off during coitus. This condom removal technique is most common during doggy style, during which it is harder to see what is going on behind the receiving partner (unless mirrors are present).
Stealthing can occur between partners of any sexual preference, but is most commonly associated with women who are trying to become pregnant by poking holes in a condom, as in the banned clothing ad from Disigual ...., or by HIV positive people in the POZ scene who find gratification through the transmission of the virus. However, anyone can stealth– so even people in long term, monogamous and STD-free relationships should beware.
Source: *"What is Stealthing", CondomDepot.com,* *May 13, 2014*
Archive Copy 1, Archive Copy 2, Archive Copy 3
Propoganda Implications
Advocacy Research and Moral Panic

Returnofthemack3 · 2017-04-27T03:50:49+00:00

While I have no doubt in my mind this happens, I think it's relegated to a very small amount of men. I've never heard of this before, and I doubt im alone in that.

DontRadicalizeMeBro · 2017-04-28T00:08:41+00:00

Why are there 3 upvotes on this post and 100 comments?

Ksrichm · 2017-05-03T02:04:01+00:00

HOLD ON.... My condom broke. Now i'm on trial for rape? I wasn't stealthing. However I would still now have to pay thousands of dollars to a lawyer to prove that? There is to many ways this could be exploited. No I would never do something as stupid as this. I'm just curious to know how do they determine if someone needs to be tried for this. If its goes based off the partner simply making a complaint. That's going to be a rough one.

Title	Stealthing - what are your thoughts?
Author	IckyStickyPoo
Upvotes	11
Comments	129
Date	April 25, 2017 11:50 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/67kh1f/stealthing_what_are_your_thoughts/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/stealthing-what-are-your-thoughts.268611 https://theredarchive.com/post/268611

Comments