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CMV: Redpill does give some decent pointers

yo_radical_one · 2015-11-21T19:14:48+00:00

It suddenly occurred to me, literally around 10 minutes ago of when I was a virgin teenager who had never kissed a girl. There was so much bullshit advice,...

yo_radical_one

November 21, 2015

18 upvotes

/r/PurplePillDebate

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Title	CMV: Redpill does give some decent pointers
Author	yo_radical_one
Upvotes	18
Comments	190
Date	November 21, 2015 7:14 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3tq2hi/cmv_redpill_does_give_some_decent_pointers/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-redpill-does-give-some-decent-pointers.278326 https://theredarchive.com/post/278326

Comments

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago* (190 children) | Copy Link

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (35 children) | Copy Link

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bekazzled3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

The thing is TRP leaves it up to the individual as to toe that fine line between being flirting and hurting feelings.

If you handed a loaded gun to someone who's never used a gun before, how confident do you feel that they'll use it wisely based on no information but internet instructions?

I know the regular answer is: TRP isn't responsible for how people apply the material. TRP also admits that sexual strategy is amoral.

So when a person engages in behaviour that is deceptive and amoral by the admission of the group responsible for disseminating this information, is it really surprising when people like me point out that it's amoral and loaded? In admitting there's some people out there "doing it wrong", do you feel 100% OK with this?

"People like me" aren't feminists, by the way (not using TRP's definition of feminism). People Like Me are just regular people who aren't thinking about game or strategy. They're thinking about family issues and daily bullshit. There's a tendency to forget here that our real lives pretty much dominate everything. The job, the family, the friends, the problems, the shit happening in the news... all of this is swimming around in our heads.

Then let's look at what happens when someone applies TRP principles incorrectly, using the most recent time I've come across TRP in real life.

You're doing a short course and a male student starts using his version of game by simultaneously flirting with and insulting you - it is often transparent to those who are intelligent enough to recognize they're being played (me recognizing: "OK, he started to talk as though he was about to compliment me, leaning in, getting my attention... then pulled back and sat upright, changed his tone, and redirected the sentence in a completely neg-style manoeuvre, then as I stared at him he acted as though it wasn't weird that he just insulted me out of nowhere"). In the meantime, I see him pulling the same stuff on girls in their early 20s who are a little less aware than I am. He's enjoying watching them scramble to get their attention, but also annoyed that I'm not falling in line. I can see it in an angry look: "I invited Bekazzled to lunch, then when lunch came up I quickly strolled to the elevators and down the stairs... it's up to Bekazzled to follow. I'm the prize here. Wait... she didn't follow me. WTF? Bitch."

Maybe I'm wrong, though. Maybe he's just a decent guy that messed up. Then i get a text that night saying, "So I guess lunch wasn't that important to you, then." I write back: "Lunch? You just walked off. We need to do the mock-up logo btw." Then he doesn't respond, as per the game manual (STFU), and rings me the next day using the mobile phone of another girl in my course. "I'm on Lucy's phone because I'm at her house having drinks. What are you doing all by yourself?" Me: "Studying. Do you have the website logo ready?" Him: "Do you even drink alcohol?" Me: "Yes. We have to meet up for the website logo. It's the last part of that unit." Him: "Well, if you could keep up with me when I invite you to lunch...." Me: "OK." Thinking, what the fuck, I just want to finish this course and get my certificate and FINISH.

While he was dicking around with game, I started dating another guy in my course (Mr Nice Guy) and learnt that all the men in the course regard The Player as a douchebag. It would be tempting to say they're angry betas, except they don't care about the player enough beyond rolling their eyes and getting back to either chatting normally to me or studying. Mr Nice Guy gives me a heads up: all the men have observed that while The Player's playing all the girls, they have been amused to notice he seems particularly aggravated that I'm not "responding". I say, "I'm just one of the hens he wants clucking around him." They say: "Yes, but you're his FAVOURITE hen."

Course finishes, I've started dating someone else, then get a random text message from him late one night: "You didn't tell me you were dating Bruce you fucking bitch." Charming. There's no point in me responding. There's no point in pointing out I wasn't dating this guy while he was running game, dread, whatever the hell he was doing.

The strange thing was, if he hadn't been so cocky and just invited me out to lunch, I probably would have gone based on his politeness and decent looks alone. The Game got in the way of me seeing him as a normal person. I don't even know if he is a normal person. I don't think even he knows where he starts and where TRP ends.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

OK, you basically typed out a long description of how some guy executed game poorly on you, but apparently still has some girls into him, namely the young ones most players are after anyways.

I can see it in an angry look:

His game was blown right here, and it was blown because he failed to be outcome independent.

I also bet that "Mr Nice Guy" is a lot more than just nice, but some confused 18 year old dude reading this knows absolutely nothing about him besides the fact that he's nice.... might wanna add some more details in there to help stem the tide of "nice guys."

The thing is TRP leaves it up to the individual as to toe that fine line between being flirting and hurting feelings.

This is true, and it takes lots of practice to calibrate that fine line. Even experienced, natural players with no PUA knowledge still fuck this up from time to time. The analogy I use is that its like flicking a quarter across the table: you win when the quarter extends just partly over the edge without falling off, bore the girl when the quarter doesnt quite reach the edge, and offend her when it goes over the edge. Different girls are different sized tables with different slopes and surfaces. Newbies to flirting are inevitably going to fuck up and hurt some girls feelings sometimes.

In admitting there's some people out there "doing it wrong", do you feel 100% OK with this?

Everybody's gotta learn somehow. The vast majority of the time the worst case scenario is hurt feelings, which are really not the end of the world. Human (mostly female) emotion is vastly over prioritized in modern society, which is so safe and sheltered that lots of people have never experienced much worse than hurt feelings, so its seems like a bigger deal than it is. Harden the fuck up before this world chews you up and shits you out. Additionally, we have to train newbies in way more important shit than dating, IE medicine, nursing etc. Those expert nurses can seriously hurt someone learning to start an IV but they gotta learn somehow. Experienced nurses can actually still fuck them up from time to time. Life involves a certain degree of inevitable risk and pain, there is no way to avoid this.

[–]Bekazzled0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's true that the younger girls did like him. (I should clarify btw that I'm 38. But misleadingly younger looking, and because I'm unmarried and into my own weird shit - breeding fighting fish, playing video games, stand-up comedy - but dance in a rather feminine way, it's sort of hard to place me. And I could tell he certainly thought I was younger than I was, and found it hard to place me. It does throw people of both genders off a bit.)

But yeah, I think for sure he got a few plates going out of that. In spite of the butt-hurt look in my direction (more anger than pain in that expression I think). I don't think I saw him looking butt-hurt in front of the others? I'm trying to think. No, he would do it playfully but not sincerely. Also, he did managed to get laid out of the whole thing, and capture a girl who I thought positively disliked him based on her outward behaviour towards him.

I would say he wasn't outcome independent enough generally too. He was fine about talking about his divorce, but when someone in the class critiqued his work I sensed defensive vibes. He and the other guys did not get along. He exclusively hung out with the girls. He was actually OK looking, 27 years old, tall. I sensed he was the kind of guy who could throw his work together to make it look good, but upon a second glance he didn't put in much effort and it all slightly fell apart - he got defensive when questioned during his presentation, etc.

I was waiting for someone to call me on Mr Nice Guy, because he ended up on being NOT that. A closet addict will always choose their secret drug of choice over another person. (I'm sure their are outliers, but you get what I mean.) The Player guy find out about our break-up through the grapevine and has contacted me since. I wrote back something non-committal and I think he's let it go.

To help out "stem the tide of 'nice guys'".... hmm, not sure what advice to give except that the Nice Guy persona doesn't work unless it's genuine and you're older. People are rarely 100% nice and that's OK. Being nice will get you attention, but you need to have a certain strength of personality to back it up. It's easy to confuse "nice" with "person will do whatever you want". Nice shouldn't equal doormat. Nice means you're into your own thing first and foremost, whatever that is (your job, hobbies etc). Nice also means you shouldn't put the other person (girls) up on a pedestal. You shouldn't degrade them, either; but give them the attention you'd give a new friend. A new friend is a nice surprise in life, but you don't obsess over the new friend all the time when they're not around. (Easy to write and more difficult to achieve, I admit.)

The tables analogy is interesting. Even though he didn't have game properly down, it was forceful enough to draw the attention of the other females. With one girl who seemed sensible, it was seemingly against her own will. It was odd. So, in terms of picking up, it did work.

Strange thing was though is that he seemed to want a long-term relationship, and that's one area where I believed him. He was totally unaffected (or seemed to be) about the two divorces under his belt already, which surprised me by his age. He's the sort of person who would shruggingly do something potentially dangerous without thinking it through, I think. He could be defensive and uncomfortable around other men, and as far as I could see had no male friends anymore. A few off-hand unguarded comments towards the end made me think he was looking for a relationship rather than just plates. Or maybe both. In spite of being a semi-successful player, he also seemed to be the type that always needed to have a girlfriend in his life, going from one relationship into the next (I guess hence the two marriages before age 27.) He had an outlook towards life which was almost innocent - he affected cynicism, but he was one of those people who had a natural positive outlook about his future and which guarded him against carrying a lot of baggage. (This is almost a lucky trait; I think this type of resilience helps people a lot in life.) He was of the type to be more excited than perplexed about the future, but also to occasionally get moody and drown his sorrows in drink by himself and facebook people to "come out" and none of his old male friends would. (It was uncomfortable, actually, NOT funny, to see how his old friends now viewed him. Some people don't hold back on the nasty responses via facebook.)

I agree the world's going to throw you some hard shit, no matter who you are. The thing that sucks about life is that it is not meant to be easy. The upside is that this, too, shall pass.

That's an interesting analogy about nurses. Nurses are an odd class of people to me (and I'm stereotyping and not all nurses are like that - NANALT - but in my experience, nurses get hardened by life pretty young if they're not fit for the role, and this can turn some of them into arseholes). For one thing, I've noticed that female nurses are generally divorced and unlike other professions, sole custody seems to go to the father. This would suggest an "unfit mother" in some cases. I was confused when I worked alongside nurses and saw how many of them were giving half their pay in child support. The proportion wasn't absolute, but much higher than I have seen everywhere else. Also, a lot of expert nurses certainly CAN fuck up from time to time. (Sorry, I know this wasn't your point, but what's up with nurses...?!?) I remember being rushed into E.R. and continually fainting, and giggling with delirium and sweat in the moments when I was unconscious, and laughing harder when I saw her try to shove an IV into my body and fuck it up. My blood splattered all over her as she was wrestling with the tubes, and she was angrily cursing, "Shit! Shit!" I remember seeing it in a haze, laughing at her, then laughing harder when she looked pissed off. (I mean... dude, I was insensible. Butt-hurt over a nearly-dying patient's delirium? Come on.)

It's also one of the professions that most highly represents smokers (which is cool, each to their own) which I thought was odd mainly because you'd think nurses would be most educated on the topic. Possibly they've seen a lot of shit and have a hard time dealing with it. Spending time around nurses has led me to believe that only some people are suited to the industry. You need to be able to shut off when you get home from work.

Actually, we can turn this into my biased story about dating nurses. I only have anecdotal stuff to relate, but if you're dating a nurse, there could be a lot of baggage there. Nothing ruins a party quicker than being seated beside nurses who are having a pissing contest about who's been in the worst situation (..."so this old lady had told everyone she was going to kill herself, everyone around her was apparently like, "yeah right", then she went out into her backyard and poured petrol on herself and set herself on fire. When we got there she was all charred, you know, but she still had a heartbeat, so when the cops shows up and tried to take the body I was like, "Um excuse me she's still alive and I gotta do my job?!" (in a bitchy voice with no respect for the patient whatsoever).

I was pretty mortified. So, ahem, if you're going to date a nurse... check for baggage and cynicism. My brother dated a nurse and she spent some time an a psychiatric institution because of the damage it had done to her.

tl;dr: pick-up game worked even while it was imperfect, except I sensed the dude wanted an emotional LTR over plates; and, I guess, be careful around nurses. Some of them can't let the job go when they get home. Yes I know NANALT.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Jesus christ your post was long, but everything you said about nurses is spot on. Source: I am a nurse, LOL. Psych nurses are the worst... my pysch instructor repeatedly said stuff like "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree" and "the only difference between the patients and me is that I have the keys."

A huge amount of my views come from working in female dominated fields... as well as seeing some of my colleagues get absolutely fucked in divorces :/

Acute care nurses also tend to have a short shelf life due to the ridiculous stress and greater than most people expect bodily damage.

facebook people to "come out" and none of his old male friends would.

oh how I know this feel. I have two types of male friends: fucked up losers who never moved past high school, and highly successful dudes with no time for me anymore. In an odd twist of events I hang out with mostly girls now.

In spite of being a semi-successful player, he also seemed to be the type that always needed to have a girlfriend in his life,

I have known many of these.

[–]Bekazzled0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bekazzled1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I know. What's worrying is that so many men describe themselves as "unplugged" for a very long period of time. Check our MRP, where their status as unplugged or unplugging is in the flair. Unplugging seems to hang around for a VERY long time... the reason is "it takes years to work."

So in the years where hundreds or thousands of guys are actively running about in this world, trying to get this to "work" or are "unplugging", are they not morally responsible for the shitty behaviour that splashes back onto those around them?

I should add this particular guy was ex-army, 27, and with two divorces behind him already. His game-playing meant I couldn't finish the unit I was supposed to be working on with him - eventually I spoke to the course lecturer and he agreed I could finish the module myself. Otherwise I wouldn't have finished that course.

[–]Xemnas812 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas18 points19 points20 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

The entire premise shit tests and negging is deeply misogynistic.

No, it's just trying to make sense of women's fundamentally erratic behavior (usually it's making you jump through hoops and then being frustrated when you actually do it). Let me give you an example:

It was my mother when she just got together with my father (to this I have to add that my mother is actually pretty great and if she would generally behave like TRP says, she would have broken up with my dad long ago). Back then, my parents had the habit of couching, and dear mommy always send my dad on small errants ("fetch me a sandwich", "fetch us two cans of soda" etc.). In the beginning my dad complied, but once he realized - which was pretty soon - that this was her standard M.O. and she didn't have any intentions to reciprocate or take turns, he just brushed her off and said "do it yourself".

Now the one million dollar question: how do you think would that relationship have developed had my father continued to comply? How do you think would my mother have developed her behavior had her then-boyfriend never nipped that behavior in the bud (she still has the habit of sending people on errants, btw)? What if he had signaled her - by continuing to do her bidding - that whenever she said "jump", he'd ask "how high?" (and had gone along with increasingly egregious demands)? Would it have stopped at sending him on errands?

Now this, dear sirs and madams, is a shit test. My mother didn't consciously want to sabotage this relationship. She didn't want it to fail. Yet her actions were the first push in that direction, and had my dad not pushed back and she had continued to push her limits, knowing her I can pretty much guarantee you that this relationship wouldn't have lasted and I wouldn't exist.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BeyondTheLight0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DietyzPurple Pill2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

How are shit tests misogynistic? You realize men say shit tests too right?

Not really no.

Its just the idea of someone asking a question in a somewhat innocent way that doesn't sound like a big deal but in reality it is important to them and they want you to answer it in a specific way.

With shit tests by women, the "specific way" they want you to answer is "with self-confidence". Your answer to the question doesnt really matter. Her question doesnt really matter. It's only about testing your self-confidence and not-neediness.

Otherwise it's not a shit test.

Has a male ever asked you an innocent question about your previous sexual encounters or N count? If you answered in a way specifically to sound like not a slut or not reveal something to him that he wouldn't like than he shit tested you and you passed

This is not a shit test. It's the man trying to find out if she is a slut. He doesn't ask the question to test her self-confidence. He really wants to know if she is a slut.

I see that you get the difference. But you shouldnt use the term shit-test like this.

[–]Bekazzled0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

TRP does not however acknowledge or write about men conducting shit tests. If this is in the sidebar or requisite material and I've missed it, please link it. Saying TRP doesn't bring up men because "there isn't much point" is an easy way of getting out of saying, "Both genders shit test." Under the AWALT model, only women shit-test. I have never once heard a male talk about shit-testing someone, or any acknowledgement from TRP that men do this.

If you're around that kind of group-think (women shit-test, men aren't thought of at all) what kind of vibe is that perpetuating? While you state here that men can shit test - and you probably believe it - there are a lot of RPers who don't believe men shit-test. Shit-testing is the entire field of "women's behaviour" and is used to describe women in totality: women are shit-testing children who use hamsters and have no handle on finances or intelligent thinking. That's it. Don't think of it any other way or the rest of TRP will fall over.

Because AWALT. If you keep thinking "AWALT, AWALT, AWALT," it's kind of funny how the world will suddenly take shape to fit that view.

I have a friend who is convinced that every time he looks at his watch, it seems to be 4:45. He thinks it's creepy and mystical. When I pointed out that maybe he's noticing the time 4:45 because he's glancing at the clock 15 minutes prior to finishing work, he disregards this counter theory immediately. He's seen 4:45pm showing up often enough to prove to him that "all I see is 4:45 whenever I look at the clock." Then he hears that his girlfriend's best friend has moved into 445 Samford Road. CREEPY!

No, it's not creepy. He's looking for this number. Would he have even noticed that this girl moved into 445 Samford Road if he wasn't already paranoid that the numbers "4:45" were "everywhere" and in some way meaningful?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

TRP does not however acknowledge or write about men conducting shit tests. If this is in the sidebar or requisite material and I've missed it, please link it. Saying TRP doesn't bring up men because "there isn't much point" is an easy way of getting out of saying, "Both genders shit test." Under the AWALT model, only women shit-test. I have never once heard a male talk about shit-testing someone, or any acknowledgement from TRP that men do this.

But there is no point (for us). Also, the problem with female shit tests is that they're counterintuitive - you do what she wants, and not only does the relationship get worse, but she actually stops respecting (and loving) you.

It's more difficult to come up with male equivalents for this. If I had to come up with a male shit test, it would be for example making a girl put out early on and then being disappointed that she complied as easily (thus outing herself as being "easy") and dumping her precisely because she did exactly what the guy wanted (you may actually have noticed this behavior being described at TRP, even though it wasn't described as a "shit test"). Though I'd wager that this behavior isn't necessarily common (most girls were never intended to be "upgradable" to begin with, and if they stonewall efforts to have sex with them, they just get ignored).

[–]Bekazzled1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Male shit tests" come up in the same fashion that "female shit tests" do - when two people are arguing about an issue.

Example from an ex-boyfriend whose best friend Simon owed him money (which he raged about on no less than 20 occasions):

Joe: You know what, fuck Simon. I'm going to text him.

Me: What? What about?

Joe: What do you think?

Me: About that twenty dollars he owes you from last week? Still? I thought you said you were over that. You let it go.

Joe: I am over it. I'm just going to text him about it. That fuck.

Me: It's $20. You said you wouldn't get angry about it again.

Joe: Well, I am fucking angry! I should go around their and just literally grab that gold chain off his fucking neck. He owes me more than just that $20...

Me: OK...

Joe: In fact, if I open my spreadsheet, I can give you the exact figure he owes me...

Me: I know you can-

Joe: Hang on, I'm going to email him the spreadsheet.

(Joe walks away and does this, comes back, movie is still on pause)

Joe: Fucker. He hasn't even replied to my text yet. What do you think of that?

Me: He's ignoring you. Or he's away from his phone. How many times do we have go through this?

Joe: We're not going through it. I'm just texting a friend.

Me: Exactly. Your friend.

Joe: Look at what I've written. Actually, I bet that fucker is scared.

Me: That is a wall of angry texting. This is why he's avoiding you.

Joe: He can fucking hide and run if he wants-

Me: It's twenty dollars!

Joe: Exactly.

Me: Seriously, I cannot believe we're having another argument about this. You said you were over it. Spending hours talking about-

Joe: Well, I'm ending it now. This is the LAST text I send, I promise.

Me: Another one?

Joe: Just one more.

(Silence)

Joe: Where's Jeff?

Me: He left when you started up about Simon.

Having this exact sort of argument every day wasn't fun. Joe didn't like to be angry by himself. He would shit test me by bringing up something like this repeatedly to the point where I'd get as angry as him. If I wasn't as angry as him, he was angry at that.

[–]DietyzPurple Pill2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]b38497988Numbers Game0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]DietyzPurple Pill0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The underlining principle is APALT, as it includes males too. Men and women just have different sets of values, so the questions are different. Individuals may have specific shit tests that are unique to them. The only person who doesn't shit test would be a person that isn't judgmental at all and doesn't care about the other persons social standing, finances, education, goals, hobbies etc

If you care about any of that when meeting people than you are shit testing. Remember, shit testing isn't necessarily conscious behavior

Girls talk about male shit tests all the time, any girl that wont reveal her sexual history is talking about passing male shit tests. Any girl that wont answer the "how many" question is passing a shit test, well if she gets away with it anyway. They just don't call it a shit test

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DietyzPurple Pill0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (95 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bekazzled3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bekazzled1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I didn't say patriarchy is the devil. You did. I think it would be near impossible to know how to categorize patriarchy within the context of various social systems, cultures and countries since the dawn of man and draw any amazing conclusions, as it is intrinsically interwoven with other so many other variables. I'm not an expert in this field.

Just because you don't want kids doesn't mean that anybody else should take childlessness in stride as well. Geez...

Way to make it personal... /u/Drenzard, this is what I meant about someone with RP flair's opinion on me not wanting to have kids. It's remembered and then dragged up as evidence.

I was saying, /u/exit_sandman, if anything, that the human race has managed to procreate so far on its own pretty damned well. That is it. I did not order for a culling of the human race, or suggest such measures should be implemented.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say patriarchy is the devil. You did.

Hey, don't be disingenuous - I strongly doubt that you would want to live in a system that limits your autonomy to such an extent.

The thing is: a monogamy-oriented patriarchal system helped to make sure that the average guy could reliably bank on having (and keeping!) a family at some point; which is also the reason why men have been able to reproduce pretty well for thousands of years (and men already had signficantly lower odds to procreate than women throughout history, like 40%:80%).

Absent that system, men have to come up with alternatives that make sure that their priorities are taken care of. And TRP is pretty unapologetic about being only in it for men.

It's remembered and then dragged up as evidence.

Which is perfectly within your right (and better than never getting around to have them but complaining when it's too late). However, regardless of pill color, I've observed that people who don't want to have kids have the tendency to not being able to relate to those who di.

And honestly: your attitude "men were able to procreate/have sex, so it's safe to assume it'll work out somehow, besides there are too many people around anyway" is extremely dissatisfying for someone who (a) wants relationships/sex/family/intimacy/whatever and (b) has been unable to get it so far. And again: just because you think it isn't a pressing issue doesn't mean others see it the same way.

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (87 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

They hate certain behaviours that can be overwhelmingly attributed to women and not really to men much. Feminists think that any critique of women's behaviour is misogynistic, but is it? There are so many 'male' behaviours that are shit too but it's not misandry to point that out.

It's like when feminists start telling men how to behave and start ripping on certain male behaviour. Are you telling me that they aren't being sexist? There are absolute sexists on both sides but that doesn't make every argument that each side makes sexist.

It really comes down to perspective but since you obviously have no interest in altering your perspective to develop a deeper understanding of the issue, you're never going to have a nuanced view of it, and always be reduced to making shit, ill-thought out posts that you think are pieces of gold.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Who gives a shit about certain feminist? Why do you define yourself in enemyship to a different group and view that as an excuse for it? I am not going to join Stalin because I hate Hitler. Maybe its a culutural problem, because I am not American, so maybe you really live in some kind of feminist totalitarian society that margilized you to the point, you had to join the TRP resistance, but somehow I doubt it. The picture of feminism you paint here is very typical for Reddit but hardly resonate with real life. They are not the ruling overclass supressing men, the feminist you are talking about, the crazy ones, are a loud fringe group and only affect my life peripher.

Unless of course you are mad about women being more equal now and not like in the good ol times, which I suspect, well, then I do not really require a deepder understanding of the issue, because I do not mind my girlfriend working and developing an independent character.

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (74 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Bekazzled1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Bekazzled0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

It's funny that females have to work to earn your respect, with the underlying assumption that any male around you doesn't have to.

What have you done to earn my respect, those downvoting? (i.e. you, Morpheus.)

I was born with a vagina. I didn't actually choose this, by the way. My best friend of 24 years is male. Never been any sexual tension. I don't want to have babies (so spermjacking is off the table), and I don't want to get married (forget divorce-rape), and even though I don't cheat I don't blame men or women when they DO cheat. Each situation is unique. Humans are unique in a way that might surprise you, but you can easily ignore these differences if you're wearing blinders.

The ironic thing is that many of the things I want (or rather, things that I don't want) are aligned with what RP wants/doesn't want. It's the intention that differs. I don't hate men. I don't think when a male walks up to me, "Right. Now what are you going to do to earn my respect?"

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

with the underlying assumption that any male around you doesn't have to.

that is your assumption, not mine. EVERYONE has to earn it.

I was born with a vagina.

tits or GTFO.

Never been any sexual tension.

LIES. He is your beta orbiter, I guarantee it.

I don't blame men or women when they DO cheat.

that just sounds naive. People should take responsibility for their actions.

Each situation is unique. Humans are unique in a way that might surprise you, but you can easily ignore these differences if you're wearing blinders.

more extremist blank slate nurture over nature bullshit ideology. Humans follow patterns and trends. We are not special snowflakes. You are blind to the reality that humans are animals, because your naive idealism is getting in the way of your reason.

many of the things I want (or rather, things that I don't want) are aligned with what RP wants/doesn't want.

do tell.

I don't hate men.

and TRP does not hate women. If we did, we would avoid women altogether and go for prostitutes. The reason that guys are on TRP is because we WANT relationships with women, just on our terms.

[–]anacrassismurex bath4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (54 children) | Copy Link

Of course you hate women,

Do you not see how ridiculous this statement is? why do you say it? It could not be further from the truth. If we actually hated women, we would want nothing to do with them at all and go completely MGTOW, maybe picking up a prostitute every now and then.

The fact that TRP exists is because men WANT relationships with women.

You seem to be focusing on the idea of a bitter beta trying to bulk up and get back for being an incel. This is partly true for some TRP guys, but it is less about the anger at women and more about the anger at ourselves for believing the lies we were told. Its about going past our limits and achieving what we were once unable to do.

Someone who allows their bitterness to completely consume them would not even be on TRP. You seem to think that TRP is the most extreme version of this, but we are actually the solution for men who are already going too far.

[–]Defactomonkey2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bekazzled2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, much in the same way they managed to live successfully for thousands of years without modern medicine. Or modern psychology. Or modern lots of things.

Would you consider this a compelling argument to never avail yourself of modern medicine again ? Or other aspects of the modern world ?

Perhaps you like ballet, and love going to see it. How convinced are you going to be by the point that "all through history we did without the ballet, so why not just give it up ?".

Guys want to get laid and have meaningful sexual lives. RP shows them how in the modern world. No-one is going to give that up because "Marrying the only girl in your village not related and roughly the same age was good enough for your great-great-great-great-grandfather, so get on with it".

We don't live in that society anymore. What worked then does not work now. RP is what works now.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]jsalatheMostly Red Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Defactomonkey1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Defactomonkey1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

 sounds interesting. Tell me more.

We keep each other in check. I am not the expert in everything and neither is she. We can disagree strongly on some points and the our egos will allow the stronger point to prevail.

If it wasn't for her pushing me (you call them shit tests) I would not be nearly as successful as I am today.

Sometimes I have days when I just want to relax, but she is very type A so wakes up with a plan for the day. I have learned to plan some productive activities daily to keep her happy otherwise she will start coming up with stupid tasks for me to do. In the end it made me a more disciplined person and I can directly point to where it increased my annual income by approximately $25k/yr.

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]b38497988Numbers Game0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Glad that your relationship works out for you man.

But unfortunately for many other families, that lifestyle seems to be not working out for we humans as a whole. Look at society, look at the family structure, there's a very clear positive correlation between divorce rate and how women are increasing their power/leadership within the family.

I'm not saying that it's the cause of it, but the trend exists. Women are better at certain things and men are better at certain things. I just think that leadership isn't really one women can handle. There are of course exceptions but they are rare. Leading puts too much stress and responsibilities on the person in charge. And women are worse at handling stress and emotions than men.

Feminists sure are bringing more power to women but are they bringing more happinesss to them? Which is something a lot of us consider the most important to achieve in the end.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

I am not talking about certain individuals within TRP but the ideology as a whole and as a whole the ideology is inherently misogonistic and bitter. TRP attempts to define the relationship between men and women and it does so by portraying it as a constant struggle of power between the two parties, a fight were the Redpill men has to be constantly on his wits to deploy his plans against his girlfriend to keep her irrational and childish nature in check.

Its an ideology that take all the bitterness and negative experiences some men have with women and extrapolates an entire worldview out of it. AWALT is basically your version of "all men are pigs", something a side branch of radical feminsim likes to promotes and shittests are the prime example of how bitterness is a fundamental part of the Redpill ideology. You are basically taking the behaviour of girls who treated you bad and generalized it to an entire gender.

Personally with all the girls Ive meet and been with, I rarely encountered shittests and if in the rare cases I did, I did not recognize them as shittests, but as a cunt being a cunt. There are million of men in happy relationships or getting laid who did never experience the same sort of negative feedback in regard to the other gender and they will not respond to the TRP because of that. Its the guy who feel fucked over who take their individual experience to build an entire worldview out of it which is TRP.

I admit I rarely went to the red pill sub, because really I usually never concern myself with the topic, but the last time I did I remember a thread of a girl who was linked and the brigaded from the Red Pill and she came to defend herself. The first and most upvoted comment there was by a mod who cheerfully noted to the other member to keep in mind that girls can not think rationally, thus nobody should take anything what she says seriously, and that she is only here for validation. Yeah, for most people that would be solid proof of misogyny.

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I actually am not one of those "women and men are the same" type of people, but history backs me up on the relations of men and women being variable. (Again, see point of Egyptians and Romans vs. Ancient Greeks. In Roman women didn't have as much power as men, but they could own property, often directed business affairs, etc. Ditto Egypt. Not so in Greece.)

Nurture is built on top of nature, always.

Sure, it is. But the way different societies build on top of nature is different. Women across cultures want less lifetime partners than men ... recently saw in a documentary in which one researcher studied (I think) 25 countries and in every country it was the same--the men wanted more than the women. However, the absolute numbers varied by country. In the U.S. women would prefer having 5 partners in their lifetime, the men would prefer 16. In Norway (slightly more liberal, maybe?) women wanted 7 partners in their lifetime, the men wanted 25. Obviously, then you have places that are very religious where the numbers are lower, but women never want more than the men.

So, the nature was the same ... but the way those society's incorporated that nature was different.

In some cultures women will be punished for not being virgins. In the U.S. I know some really religious guys who are ambivalent about dating virgins who are over 24 because they think a girl who hasn't lost her virginity at that age may be "running from life."

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bekazzled0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes.

When I think of RP theory in action, I think: Any time you hear yourself saying, "I've found the light" or "I've found the answer that others don't have!" don't you ever think, for just a second, that it's a little odd that you've done a complete 180 on your original position - you, your regular personality and thoughts? Did "old beta you" ever hear the words, "I have found the answer to a great mystery... it will change your life!" and think, "that sounds kind of cult-y. There are no easy answers. What is this, Amway?"

When I'm playing Warcraft, for example, if I find myself in a battle (PVP) and suddenly utilizing a strategy that has strayed so far from my original intention that I'm performing the opposite strategy than my original unbiased intention, I always question why I'm changing my strategy. Am I changing it because it's smart, or am I getting involved in a shit-fight with one particular dude and forgetting that I only win if the team wins? When did my goal change from winning as a team effort from winning against one dude who seems to have a boner for killing my character? I can spend the whole game taking revenge on this one dude and feel like I've "won" - meanwhile I've dropped out of reality and my team has lost. Meaning I've lost and I don't get the (honour) points. I've been running around a battlefield for 20 minutes for no reason. But boy, did I show that one dude who's who..... damn, I'm just 50 honour points short of getting that new gear. The object of playing that battleground was getting that new gear.

What happened half-way through to make me feel like I was winning again?

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[–]InterversityPurple Pill, Blue Tribe4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

...eye contact, body language, understanding plausible deniability, using powertalk, group dynamics, body language, abundance mindset, frame, shit tests, understanding female motivations and actions...

TRP puts together advice on every single aspect of improving your life with particular focus on social skills. It is comprehensive. But the most important thing by far is that it teaches you how to think. It encourages self-reflection and introspection in concert with repeated practice, which is applicable to literally everything you will ever do.

It is more or less 'How to be an attractive modern man 101'. I've read dozens of self help books, blogs, websites, etc. on all different aspects of this from fitness to nutrition to social skills to sex. The only other place that comes close in terms of comprehensiveness and utility is The Art of Manliness. Many red pillers would say that TAoM is a red pill publication without using the moniker.

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[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The only decent pointers that TRP gives is to improve yourself ("be yourself" is bad advice, but it's not necessary to make yourself a whole different person either. Just improve your pre-existing strengths enough to impress women.) and to not pedestalize women (just as many women are just as faulty as men). TRP does not hold a monopoly on this advice, though. TRP fails when it comes to anything they say about the nature of women that places them below men in status, and when they say any kind of generalization about the nature of women in general. While men and women have differences, they have more in common than TRP would like to think, and any generalization about female nature is impossible due to the wide variation between individual women genetically and the cultures and parental upbringings that they come from.

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[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Both Red and Blue have something to offer.

Red has a lot to offer on the attraction front; lift/get fit, eat right, dress well, have . Yes, this is available for most self improvement programs. What is not available in many other places is the PUA advice; Frame, amused mastery, handling shit tests, push/pull, etc. What is completely lacking outside of the Manosphere (and knee-deep into masculinity forums such as AskMen or the BB misc.) is the state of intergender dyanmics; hypergamy, AF/BB, feminine imperative, AWALT etc.

Blue goes out of its way to trivialise the extent to which feminism has created a toxic, dangerous environment for men in the SMP attempting to be sexual selectors. The ultimate agenda of 3rd wave feminism is to create a climate full of better Betas-high-value masculine men who covertly serve fem-centric needs, based upon the false premise of 'equality', and whom women ultimately select themselves. A lot of the procedures put in place by feminism, specifically things like 'rape culture' are based off the paranoia the feminine imperative faces from men being able to be sexual selectors. This, alongside Just get It, is a major reason that women collectively resent budding PUAs too (less so experienced PUAs who come across as natural Alphas). So, TRP and the broader Manosphere (including the MRM) helps explain concepts such as the Misandry Bubble, Marriage 2.0, the Duluth Model and VAWA, Title IX, etc.

Blue, however, has something which TRP sorely lacks; empathy. I'm not thinking much about TBP as much as 'the feminine perspective', based off the fact that the red pill mindset is highly analytical, whereas the blue is highly empathetic. I browse Quora and the answers provided there have a lot of emotional nuance, albeit sometimes misandrist. Threads like this, for example,

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3trqcm/q_for_bp_primarily_but_anyone_can_answer_wh

just get laughed at as 'lib-cuck bait' on TRP. There is very little discussion on emotionally mature conflict resolution skills, managing conflicting emotions, the dreaded 'communication and comprpomise' etc. The best TRP has to offer in this regard is Stocisim-albeit tha is a good start, internal locus of control is useful. In fact, the primary Manosphere bloggers go out of their way to dismiss betas until Alpha is established, based upon the premise that women don't like beta without Alpha being the primary mode of Frame. Yet, there are women who genuinely prefer secure, complex, emotionally adept men to rich bodybuilders and other hyper masculine 'bad boy' archetypes. There is also the fallacious assumption that most men on TRP already 'get' beta naturally. NO, lest we forget there are plenty of yung, vulnerable teenagers flocking to TRP without having developed this side of themselves, and it's also like sexual crack to aspies seeking out a very methodical and absolutist blueprint to understand social interactions and the abstract concept of emotion.

I don't ever expect, because TRP is primarily a sub to set one up to be spinning plates or engaging in casual hook-ups, where intimacy is not required. But for men pursing LTRs, I implore men to read r/PunchingMorpheus alongside TRP so that they don't lose themselves within dark abysses like 'women are incapable of love' and 'hypergamy doesn't care about relational equity'. And no, just reading the 'importance of beta in LTRs' post isn't going to cut it.

tl;dr both Alpha and Beta are important, TRP focusses on all the Alpha, but trust me, I learned the hard way, you do actually need Beta too. And the Blue perspective offers that. Without this, TRP will continue to attract the attractive yet insecure, manipulative women that helps it maintain the premise of AWALT.

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His reply:

Exercise and Weightlifting is a modern invention. It came to America in the 1930s and was popularized in the 1950s. Before that is can be traced to the 1880s in Europe. We have a history of humanity that pre-dates this activity by thousands of years. Despite what Reg Park, who is very accomplished, may claim there is nothing natural about modern weightlifting. Further there is nothing natural about modern exercise. We exercise today more per capita in America than in our entire history and yet our obesity rates continue to rise. We have affordable access to healthier and safer foods more so than the entire history of humanity and yet we are obese. How is this possible if exercise and strong lifts make your body sculpted? The fact is it is not diet and exercise that lead to a healthy life, but rather diet and an active life that lead to a healthy life. You want to know how to get strong? Garden. Your mantra should be “read the side bar and go prune your daisies.”

[–]hyperrrealLoves fun5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]mrcs84usnFatty Fat Neck Beard3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

His reply:

Normally I never second guess the Chaos and Pain blogspot when it comes to historical accuracies. We could go back and find a heavy stick someone used to get strong 5000 years ago and say "caveman TRP" and the dude that carried a cow was a total Alpha, but I think the point being made was specifically America and Europe. I didn't verify this on the Chaos and Pain blogspot, but I believe America got its start primarily populated and led by Europeans. We also saved the world twice before exercise really even became a thing here. Also to say that nothing is new in exercise as the blog claimed is an insult to the Thigh Master. All kidding aside the patent for the barbell was filed in 1865 so if this was an ancient idea that carried on throughout history why wasn't it filed 100 years earlier the day the office opened? Maybe people were too busy lifting to go get money. Since you brought Asia up I will as well. A 2012 study by the Lancet revealed 60% of Japanese adults are considered inactive yet only 3.6% are considered obese according to another study conducted by Ideas.org. I know these are not at the same level as Chaos and Pain, but it's all I got.

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[–]AmericanHistoryAFBBI'm Back0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AmericanHistoryAFBBI'm Back2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link