What does gender equality look like?

John_Oakman · 2021-02-27T02:24:58+00:00

There's so many variations and definitions of what is equality that it's probably easier to go from the most extreme theoretical and work downward from there:

total/absolute equality: literally all population are clones from the same template, all living in same environment with the same amount of luck (or lack of, depending on how much predestination is involved). Completely impossible given the nature of the universe
comprehensive equality (outcome): all legal codes, economic status, and social mores are weighted to ensure that every individual gets the same outcome. Difference in genetics means a lvl of unfairness will occur to achieve equality of outcome
comprehensive equality (opportunities): similar to above except it's generally only for the starting line. Due to genetic difference on the individual level (and luck) differences will occur as they live out their lives...
on paper equality: legal codes officially stating equality, but economic status and social mores remain unequal. Most modern liberal social democratic first world nations are around here.
unequal: exactly what it says, most of the rest of the world is somewhere around here.

Ideally #3 is the best compromise between human nature and unrealistic ideals, but realistically somewhere between 3 & 4 is where humanity will likely to stuck at for the foreseeable future.

artsii215 · 2021-02-27T02:21:00+00:00

I don't think we've reached equality yet but it definitely sucks to be a man or a woman today. They just suck differently

NarniaFox · 2021-02-27T05:28:45+00:00

No, I don't think there is equality between men and women, although I wouldn't say that at least in most Western countries men have it better than women.

Equal opportunities and expectations for men and women. Also legal equality.

I start with the legal aspect:

Equal sentences for men and women.
Possibly paper abortions that would protect both men and women by giving men a short period of time when they can refuse from their paternal rights. I guess a man also should be legally informed in an appropriate time, so everyone would have time to make their decision. Of course, paper abortions can exist only where medical abortions are legal and accessible.
Shared custody should be a default option.
No alimonies. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to have alimonies for special cases like it is in Russia now. A spouse can get alimonies in case of their disability, pregnancy and a year after giving birth. Another variant would be to provide for all these cases by a state.
Shared parental leave. For example, both partners can take 6 months, but they can't give their 6 months to each other, so hopefully more men would start taking their leave.
Anonymous exams, job interviews etc. instead of quotas.

Equal opportunities and expectations:

Both parents should be responsible for their kids and spend similar amount of time with them. It also means taking sick days with kids.
Rape and sexual harassment victims should be treated equally whatever their gender and their assaulter's gender are.
Shelters for domestic abuse victims both for men and women, although men and women should have their own places to go.
People with mental issues get treated equally, although, I guess for helping men we do need programs aimed specifically at them.
Splitting bills should be a norm, I see no reason for one party to always pay for the other.
Men shouldn't bear an expectation to be sole/main providers, women shouldn't be viewed as main parents, cleaners, house managers etc. Egalitarianism is great, but even people who want to split roles should talk about it first and not put unarticulated expectations on each other.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot, but these are just points that first came to mind. The easiest part is legal changes, as it's at least somewhat clear how we could make them. It doesn't mean it will be easy to implement them, of course. Considering social changes though I don't have a simple answer, although a lot of legal changes would lead to social ones too. We should keep raising awareness of both men and women's problems, questioning existing expectations, representing different types of families, encouraging men to take an active parental role and women to let men do it.

I guess some social changes will happen sooner or later and there aren't really ways to force them to speed up. The more women work and get high salary, the more people will stop seeing men as sole/main providers. The more men stop overworking and start being involved and active fathers, the more children will be raised seeing it as a norm and probably copying this behavior in the future etc.

reluctantly_red · 2021-02-27T03:07:16+00:00

For the most part, we've arrived. The only things left to accomplish are the provision of better childcare and paternal leave (for both mom and dad).

Shirley_Schmidthoe · 2021-02-27T02:40:46+00:00

Groups don't enjoy or do enjoy status or equaity; individuals do.

Plopolok · 2021-02-27T04:31:52+00:00

It's hard to say if genders have equal status. You can't precisely measure the status of an individual, and it's even harder for a group. People who want to talk about male privilege will focus on male CEOs, people who want to talk about female privilege will focus on young attractive women. And I suppose you're talking about the USA? Because things would be different in Saudi Arabia, Netherlands or China. And even inside the US some things are specific to some communities. I think today discussing gender equality broadly is obsolete, we have to analyze complex issues topic by topic, with gender being only a part of the equation. For example, studying the pay gap means investigating why jobs chosen by women might be relatively underpaid. The higher rates of men's homelessness, incarceration and suicide is a complex biologico-social issue that's hard to address. Domestic violence can't be seen unilaterally. Height privilege is related to gender equality, but if we somehow managed to remove it, it would benefit short men even more than women. Etc.

For some specific solutions: ban circumcision, improve family law, subsidize menstrual products.

Godot96 · 2021-02-27T08:27:48+00:00

Imo it's a complete oxymoron

alwaysonalongtrip · 2021-02-27T18:49:44+00:00

Every single person has a place in their community, has a valuable job to do, and is treated w dignity and respect.
Everyone is supported in being the best version of themselves, regardless of gender.
Predators are punished, not victims. People are allowed to expect to feel safe in most places, not told they are babies for having real concerns.
Wholesome examples of masculinity and femininity from people of all walks of life.
Everyone gets a puppy.

Frosty-Gate-8094 · 2021-02-28T14:18:49+00:00

The problem with feminism is that it is based on the premise that 'women are oppressed, men are the oppressors'

This concept is the core philosophy of feminism...

As you can easily see, if you start with this prejudice, true gender equality is impossible..

So, to answer your question... How gender equality looks?

Its looks like gender equality without the prejudice..

Equal laws... (All laws, including rape laws, DV laws, everything )... In letter and spirit..

Equal judicial rulings and procedures...especially no bias towards any gender when it comes to sexual or domestic crimes.
Equal social status and pay.
Respect for biological differences. (When it comes to social status.. That is we should celebrate both feminity and masculinity).
Respect for personal choices... Like career choices, parenthood, etc.. Of both genders

PM_ME_SPICY_DECKS · 2021-03-01T05:50:56+00:00

men and women do not share equal status today.

A world of gender equality, is imo a world where gender seldom even enters one's mind. A world where it's extremely mundane to see a man teaching kindergarten or a woman as a soldier. a world where gender really just doesn't matter most of the time.

SherbertBacon · 2021-02-27T05:46:38+00:00

Do you believe men and women do not share equal status today?

No. There are places where men are disenfranchised, and places where women are disenfranchised, but on the whole and in aggregate, women still have it a bit worse.

If no, what does a world where the genders are equal look like to you?

To list just a few differences: Less negative stereotyping and biasing for women who want to work in the sciences. A world where women and men could feel equally safe at night walking home alone, or through a park, or sharing personal information online, or going on a blind date, etc. A world where men could ask for help and not feel weak.

What solutions do you propose to achieve that equality? Specifics, please.

I propose none other than gradual evolution. There's work towards awareness and making safer spaces. But I think these issues are pretty hard-lined and pervasive. Short of gradual evolution I don't see things really changing.

Please give additional context to your comments and say where you’re from.

I'm a man. I live in Australia but I'm originally from California. I align most with third wave feminist gender-political ideologies, but I also think it's important to mention and advocate for men who are hurting and in need too.

flapperfemmefatale · 2021-02-27T04:55:20+00:00

Speaking as a woman, I'd see equality as not being treated differently, or having things assumed about me, simply because of my gender identity. I'd be absolutely thrilled if gender only mattered when it came to sexual orientation.

LeatherDifference583 · 2021-02-27T11:43:24+00:00

Gender parity in government (Sweden have this) and equal representation across all other industries.

I think some Industries will always appeal to one gender more than the other (men are never going to be that interested in childcare, and women are never going to be that interested in a lot of physical jobs) but theres no reason why Hollywood for example, should be a boys club.

WilliamWyattD · 2021-02-27T15:57:56+00:00

Gender equality means that the happiness of each gender is given equal priority in a system that tries to maximize the happiness and well-being of everyone.

There are many forms this could take.

I don't think we have achieved the right balance. We may never achieve a perfect balance, but we can do better when we are able to have more honest conversations. When each gender isn't afraid to admit things because they fear admissions would be used against them. When our culture incorporates the best info. we have about gender tendencies in its decisions and choices.

I think we are slowly getting there. Feminism was a needed corrective in many ways. Any culture that had come to view the typical woman as innately inferior in capabilities to the typical man had clearly lost touch with reality. But it went too far. Long understood truths, also discovered by science, were ignored in a utopian fantasy about gender-less societies with no gender roles whatsoever. This ignores reality and isn't working for anyone. So eventually we will face up to this and have more honest conversations. Until then, it is difficult to see what ideal gender roles look like, especially as technology keeps changing the environment.

xFallacyx69 · 2021-02-27T23:46:26+00:00

There’s no women scientist affirmative action, no child support, no alimony... there’s no “ladies night”, no female only sports/locations ... but that would mean the elimination of unbridled male thirst which isn’t gonna happen

NockerJoe · 2021-02-27T02:23:37+00:00

Generally speaking, I believe nobody should be forced to spend anything on anyone else, nobody should feel like they have to buy or earn anyone elses love, and nobody should be forced into large, insencere displays. The entire concept that one party in a date should be paying for the other at all is kinda fucked up.

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PlayfulLawyer · 2021-02-27T03:20:25+00:00

Well I should start off by saying I don't believe in equality, there's always going to be somebody that's smarter, faster, stronger, better looking, richer, more experienced, be more privileged , better looking, Etc than you

To me gender equality is are we granted the same rights under the government ( a government that I want to reduce the power of by the way) , men and women can both vote, Drive, getting married, join the military and all that jazz, are there certain other things that need to be sorted out? Sure but it's nowhere near the Gap that the feminists/pib crowd would have you believe

thetruthishere_ · 2021-02-27T03:58:15+00:00

For me its both can get jobs, start businesses, have kids or not, get married or not, get into a relationship or not, buy a home, get credit/have a bank account or live the life they want.

We all have choices in most places today to live the life we want. I do know is some other countries its not so equal still.

2021-02-27T14:58:41+00:00

It looks like androgyny. And that’s a hard pass on that plate of crap for yours truly.

just_a_place · 2021-02-28T03:04:25+00:00

Equality is a concept that isn't attuned to reality. Like the notion of "heaven" it is based more on a wished fiction than on any actual fact. For example, even among twins, TWINS! Who are genetically identical and raised in identical settings they still show distinct strengths, preferences, and skills which ultimately unequalizes them. Nature seems to be striving for diversity of strengths and skills and not for homogeneity and uniformity because ultimately that is what equality actually means. People are like trees, same basic blueprint but no two are ever identical, no two share the same shape of branches or leaves. Variation always exists and as long as variation exists there will never be equality because even in a world full of clones who are equal in everything no two clones could ever share in the same exact life, time, or experiences as the others and so variation will enter the population in one form or another.

Jakes1967 · 2021-02-28T10:44:59+00:00

What does gender equality look like?

Nobody knows....

Do you believe men and women do not share equal status today?

Equal status, YES. Equal responsibility, NO.

If no, what does a world where the genders are equal look like to you?

Men remain responsible, but women enjoy privilege.

How it should be:

Women are represented equally in ALL jobs, before they are allowed to bitch about the most senior roles.

Zero special programs, until they fill the lower roles.

Equal representation in government and the law.

Gender neutral laws and representation

biggieloss · 2021-03-01T18:43:20+00:00

How would you solve problems such as women as a whole paying literally 0 in taxes, maybe even less. This is due to women being mothers and also mostly working part time. And using government benefits more WAY more than men.

Would you tell them to not have families and work long hours instead?

0imnotreal0 · 2021-03-06T20:19:46+00:00

2 years ago, you (u/poppy_blu) said you have yet to meet someone on reddit who didn’t know what the red pill is.

Here I am, 2 years later, only now discovering this discussion. I had seen the terms blue pill and red pill in passing, but truly I thought it was some reference to the Matrix until today.

I’m not even sure which group I’d be in - according to various people on this sub, it seems I’d be stuck into different groups. However, I do want to acknowledge and appreciate your way of asking questions and following up with commenters in your post/other comments. Sets up a lot of insightful answers for the reading, so thanks!

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-02-27T02:45:06+00:00

It's a fantasy because it looks like whatever someone wants it to look like.

Usually, people only care about equality when they or people that they identify with are on the losing side. They don't really care about equality as much when they're on the winning side.

Edit:

No. Women are being given more social advantages and opportunities today.
See above.
There is no solution because both sides are fighting for what they want. This is a tug of war and both sides can't win.

stats135 · 2021-02-27T03:35:42+00:00

Equality is like communism. Its only good on paper. You never end up with a society that is equality rich, you get a society where everyone is equally poor. People need an incentive to be productive. That incentive comes in the form of living a better life, which would by definition be not equal to others.

The real question should be what is the fairest way to have inequality. In ye old days we set the criteria for inequality with Royalty > Plebs and White > Blacks. I don't think that's fair. I think what would be fair is productive > unproductive. If you produce half as much, then you get half as much, society shouldn't be there to compensate you for that.

You work slower than others because you were pregnant? You do less work that others because you were born weaker? Well, then you get treated as lesser and you get paid less than others. We don't have that in today's society. A large subset of society has more than what they create, while the rest of society has a lot less.

So to give a definitive answer 1. No, at least in the western world, men get less than what they put in, while women get more. 2. Make it so that people hold the value they create, not forcefully redistributing value for some preceived equality. 3. The biggest redistribution of value comes from the government. Make the government as small as possible.

analt223 · 2021-02-27T03:36:22+00:00

1) No. Men are blamed for everything which is a surface level conclusion of the problem

2) Women deem more men desirable (younger, shorter, less income, less educated, etc), men have less thirst, and we meet in the middle so we all have to make changes

3) Men deem morbidly obese women as attractive as Emily Ratajkowski so they are freed from expectations of looks, women ask out, pay, wine and dine, find sexy men younger than them and make less than them.

The number 1 fear people have is dying alone/being replaced/being deemed obsolete in the world/etc, and this creates the "patriarchy". You want to get rid of it? It comes down to changing how men and women approach dating/romance/casual sex/marriage in ways that NOBODY seems to want to.

Feminists don't breed -> no young people -> societal woes begin because the able bodies and minds of younger people causes societal growth.

BROWN-TOILET-PAPER · 2021-02-27T05:04:46+00:00

What does gender equality look like?

Authoritarianism. Which is what would be required to make it happen.

*Downvoting is against the sub's rules.

DigitalARAS · 2021-02-27T02:34:49+00:00

I’d say there’s a ton of big dick energy in the industry I’m in. That said, there’s also a shit ton of boss ass bitches. I’m not crine for either of em.

ThrowawayCOVID999 · 2021-02-27T08:22:19+00:00

It looks like women being more equal than anyone and dogpiling anyone who calls them out

AreOut · 2021-02-27T12:33:24+00:00

gender equality is when a male tennis player who could easily beat Serena Williams earns literally 100x less than her and nobody bats an eyelid

Aldabruzzo · 2021-02-27T16:14:57+00:00

1) Do you believe men and women do not share equal status today?

No. Women are above men now.

2) If no, what does a world where the genders are equal look like to you?

There is no way it will ever happen.

Some things that will bring more parity:

a) No alimony, ever, under any circumstances, regardless of parties' positions at divorce.

b) men have financial abortion option - man irrevocably signs away parental rights. No financial obligations, but: No right to see the child and no right to consent to child's adoption. This is to counteract women's right to determine whether a man becomes a father or whether to murder his child. She has the right to decide whether to give birth; he has the right to decide whether he will foot the bill for it.

c) Women stop bitching about "equal pay for equal work". Women ARE getting paid on par with men. The reason for "77 cents for every dollar paid to men" is because men work longer, harder, more, and smarter. We don't take time off for illness, child birth, or child care. We don't go "part time". We don't have the same work options women do. We can't work "flex time, part time, non tenure track, nonpartnership track".

d) Return to simple consent, "no means no" standard for "rape". None of this "yes means yes" "enthusiastic consent" "woman must give explicit verbal consent to EVERY sexual advancement" bullshit.

3) What solutions do you propose to achieve that equality? Specifics, please.

see above. No alimony, ever. Financial abortion. Stop bitching about the nonexistent "equal pay" "problem".

4) Please give additional context to your comments and say where you’re from.

The midwest.

mimblezimble · 2021-02-27T12:40:57+00:00

Complementarity is what is desirable; which is necessarily at odds with equality.

Women who strive for equality, have a hard time finding a husband and to reproduce. Hence, the problem is busy solving itself in a very Darwinian way.

Title	What does gender equality look like?
Author	poppy_blu
Upvotes	19
Comments	177
Date	February 26, 2021 8:34 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/lt75j0/what_does_gender_equality_look_like/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-does-gender-equality-look-like.745876 https://theredarchive.com/post/745876

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