I guess I am officially done toying with feminism, I guess this is my place now?

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2016-01-18T05:56:39+00:00

The problem is feminists also think they are about Egalitarianism. It just happens to come with "conditions". Which mainly relate to the idea that only feminists are allowed to actually talk about equality issues, and get to define who is an isn't effected by inequality. Which is why no sensible MRA tries to debate a feminist, as their non-negotiable starting point for any debate is that they are right and everyone else is a misogynist who hates women.

You might find something useful here...but I guess a better question is...does there exist a dedicated transgender community that can focus on the specific issues you face?

v573v · 2016-01-18T05:47:53+00:00

Egalitarian and MRA do not conflict with each other.

aussietoads · 2016-01-18T05:05:16+00:00

FTR, we have trolls, assholes and other baddies of various ilk and degree on this sub just like any other forum. The major difference with this sub is the general ability of the members to agree to disagree, and not call for banning just because a post is disagreeable to someones views.

If you are going to post regularly, I hope you are thick skinned because many won't hold back their critique for the sake of your feelings. And neither should they. This sub is not a safe space to avoid conflict, but it is a place to discuss all aspects of an issue and peoples pov without fearing censorship.

'Censoring' here is generally limited to telling a poster to go fuck themselves, and take as long as they like to do it, and hope they don't come back till they're finished.

DaneWhitman · 2016-01-18T04:32:18+00:00

Always glad to have more people from different backgrounds.

Most here, I would guess, also identify as egalitarians.

Ecob16 · 2016-01-18T04:49:59+00:00

There is a certain contradiction in feminism that we show: that men and women are different, but that can't be the case if gender is a social construct.

I've found that this is only adhered-to when it is convenient and forgotten when it is not. Most of the time, they say that any differences between women and men are due to socialization (you'd expect there would be some society out there in the world which was gender-neutral, but no such society exists) and that women are just as good as men in every way, except for the ways in which women are better than men. So the stuff you don't like about femaleness is artificially-imposed on women and the stuff you like about femaleness is the Real Deal which is inherent.

Oh yes, and this 'socialization' is all men's doing somehow, because men are these all-powerful super-robots who program themselves and all the lesser robots too. But they're not any different from the lesser robots.

The whole set of ideas is loopy, nonsensical, requires poor knowledge of psychology, requires poor knowledge of biology, requires poor knowledge of anthropology, etc etc, but it soldiers-on regardless of its massive, gaping, screaming internal contradictions because it's so damn appealing to its adherents. It really is something of a marvel.

feminism requires the view that there is some kind of system where women are treated worse, almost as a lower class of people

Correct, it is the belief that women are oppressed and any talk of "equality" is based on this premise. If you don't believe that women are oppressed, you're not a real feminist.

CountVonVague · 2016-01-18T04:50:01+00:00

Sadly you'll find the "patriarchy" brand of Feminism is the rising popular trend among all the cool kids. This sub is used to new people popping in and going "huh ya'll are nicer than i thought. cool" from time to time so just disregard any bigots or trolls who comment. You might be looking for "Humanism" or "being a nice person" but personally i refrain from associating with others under labels that aren't geekdom related. I've been unplugged since that "Blurred Lines" fiasco in 2013 so don't feel like you need to know the whole of the shitshow you've just joined. For interesting reading/viewing material i'd recommend Dr.Randomercam on youtube, a friendly associate of Karen Straughn's.

Blutarg · 2016-01-18T07:54:05+00:00

feminism requires the view that there is some kind of system where women are treated worse

You are so right about that. Welcome to our corner.

JimJamesPotter · 2016-01-18T06:05:48+00:00

Milo is hilarious and absolutely insane. I love him because of his antics but I can't believe anyone would question that he hates transgender people... he even hates gay people. He's clearly a bigot.

SchalaZeal01 · 2016-01-18T06:08:53+00:00

I'm a trans woman too, and I've been hanging around here to look up certain topics, news and such. Never had an issue except maybe the hyperbolic nature of some articles or posts. I figure the issues are real enough that exaggeration is not needed to be heard, and it makes some people stop listening who would otherwise be receptive to the neutral tone thing.

I've been also on a blog called Feminist Critics. It's pretty small overall with a handful of bloggers, a lot of regulars, and usually analyzes topics in-depth. Nobody can insult and you can be pretty neutral or partial and be welcomed there without being told you're an heretic (or banned for not toeing the line). Of course, most commenters there do believe that men have issues (women too), so saying men don't have any ain't gonna float (you'd get argued with a lot, but not banned still, for believing this).

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2016-01-18T04:58:44+00:00

[permanently deleted]

iainmf · 2016-01-18T07:37:11+00:00

Here is a video of a couple of trans-women discussing men's rights.

You are welcome here but there's no need to identify as an MRA. There are plenty of people who a non-feminist and anti-feminist who don't identify as MRAs.

Rfasbr · 2016-01-18T15:56:50+00:00

Hi there. Hope you find useful discussions while around, really do.

You might have noticed that even though sometimes a very vocal minority tries to go off the hinges, we tend to be more moderate in the whole if it - not the "moral spectrum problem deconstruction" moderate, but the kind of that I admire, the "lets try and find a middle ground in the discussion" moderate.

That's what killed feminism for me early on, a kind of refusal to accept that, yes, other genders also face a lot of problems due to societal norms and no, pointing that out doesn't make me a rape apologist or mean that I hate women and want to put them back in kitchens.

The main message I get from the current feminism 3.5 wave is that you can absolutely be born with a gender that's oppressive, almighty, at the same time its weak, childish, simple-minded and simply wrong by default - having a penis. That kind of discourse is bad, to say the least, even if not many effects take place now on a grand scale (alimony system and reproductive rights apart). It absolutely states that children can be born "wrong", and they should be made to feel bad and " atone" for...what, exactly? Born the way they were? If you suggested that babies born in, lets say, Mexico, had to do the same the absurdity of it would be surely called out.

Anyway, hope you find things that help you around here.

no-more-religion · 2016-01-18T17:20:44+00:00

Pc = pussy crushing

2016-01-18T06:16:10+00:00

Seems that humans are always constructing environments and teams making people choose. I welcome you here, and I welcome your input.

SigmundFloyd76 · 2016-01-18T11:23:46+00:00

The difference between Feminism and Egalitarianism. One assumes a neutral position, the other assumes systematic oppression and disadvantage. They're not the same.

DevilishRogue · 2016-01-18T13:08:32+00:00

I disagree with you on some things

Like what?

questionnmark · 2016-01-18T08:01:22+00:00

A large number of people here are disillusioned/ex feminists. I wouldn't be surprised for instance if a straw poll revealed over half of the regular posters here used to call themselves a feminist.

AloysiusC · 2016-01-18T08:26:09+00:00

You're certainly not the only transgender woman here. One thing that's very different about us is that we don't ban people for disagreeing. That means that you will encounter tradcons and other idiots. They're not the majority and will frequently be challenged (by people like me) but at least one gets to have the discussion.

azazelcrowley · 2016-01-18T09:37:21+00:00

Milo is a fine anti-feminist, and a sub-par egalitarian. It's best to keep that in mind when listening to him. Welcome aboard.

splodgenessabounds · 2016-01-18T09:47:21+00:00

First and foremeost, you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't give a flying one who you are, where you come from, what you do in your spare time or which football team you support (though I do draw the line at Man United). I get the impression that many sub-reddits are much less tolerant than this one (not that I've done a lot of research), some TG people have posted here and there are who-knows how many lurking. You will get the odd one or two who object to you purely on the basis of your being TG - in a group this big, shitposting is an unavoidable hazard.

What's interesting is your egalitarianism and - appearances to the contray notwithstanding - that's what I subscribe to this sub for. I'm not asking for special favours by virtue of my being male, just equal and non-discriminatory treatment in pretty much most aspects of daily life. And, in those facets that aren't and never will be equal, proper respect for the roles (and the pains) that the other gender goes through.

It may well be that there is no forum for true egalitarians (again, I haven't delved): if so, this place will be useful (despite the odd post or three that make you think "wha...??") and I suggest you also have a shufty at r/PurplePillDebate (ditto) - examine, discriminate, take what works and discard the rest.

The only feminists who disagree with the notion are odd balls like Christian Hoff Sommers, old-old school feminists who are all long dead,

There are more ex-feminists with high profiles than Christina Hoff-Summers: Prof Janice Fiamengo, Erin Pizzey to name but two. Calling them "oddball" is to attempt to dismiss the validity of their arguments.

fezzygirl600 · 2016-01-18T10:35:51+00:00

You're so cute, I just want to lick you all over while you make impossibly inhuman crying noises. Please be my imouto. My sister doesn't love me.

CoalCrafty · 2016-01-18T11:01:06+00:00

Hey, I'll start an egalitarian community with you! I may not have jumped over any fences but I've talked to enough people on the other side to realise theirs is just as bad as mine, and nothing infuriates me more than either side insisting the other's problems aren't 'real', or worse, that all of the problems one side faces are the fault of the other. I truly believe that singling out a group for special treatment only serves to drive a wedge deeper between that group and the rest of the world. Women's day, black history month, gay pride parades, hell, even the 'women's officer' elected at my uni every month... all of it just further imprints the idea that 'X group is apart from Y group' further into society's collective psyche. The fundamental point of all of these is surely just that one's actions, not whatever particular combination of race, gender and sexuality you have, is what matters. Why can't we just focus on that?

Okay, rant over.

Bonesteel50 · 2016-01-18T11:47:30+00:00

Milo is a troll, so it's hard to say he really hates anything.

axsis · 2016-01-18T12:29:05+00:00

He doesn't hate but he questions the treatment for the disorder. A conversation that can't happen under feminist dogma.

SilencingNarrative · 2016-01-18T12:44:22+00:00

It really depends on what you wanted to get out of feminism that you are searching for in other movements. A sense of belonging to a group thats got your back? An identity movement that can wield institutional power on your behalf?

Or a place to think hard about what makes society tick, that usually has institutional power wielded against it, which seems to be gaining traction, but which has a long march ahead of it?

equiposeur · 2016-01-18T14:14:52+00:00

Welcome.

victorymonk · 2016-01-18T16:44:49+00:00

Being libertarian doesn't mean you have to be a feminist. Just like believing in gender equality doesn't mean you have to be a feminist.

Stay label-less. Once you assume a label it automatically makes you responsible for everything that was done and said under this label. And by everything, I mean extreme crazy s--t. Because that's the only things that people would remember. On top of that labels such as feminism or Libertarianism are now just umbrella terms that encompass many sub-movement. And these sub-movements can have opposite views.

So as I said: stay label-less. If a conversation comes to that, instead of calling yourself a libertarian you can always say sth like "I side with Libertarianism in their support of strong property rights but I don't think laissez-fair is the way to go". Or whatever your views are.

2016-01-18T16:59:22+00:00

The way I see it, with the big institutional dragons slain, modern feminism stopped being about progress in women's rights and became all about generating catharsis for upper middle class college educated white women. That's why rape on campus (where campus tribunals can circumvent the justice system) is an "epidemic" but much higher rates of rape in poor minority communities go ignored. Or why "manspreading" is a bigger deal for them than women being stoned to death for being rape victims in some places.

2016-01-18T17:14:56+00:00

You're super cool here. Cool as a cucumber even. No problems.

youhatetruth · 2016-01-18T18:06:42+00:00

You're welcome here. :)

Buffalo_B · 2016-01-18T04:38:38+00:00

Am I cool here or shall I be banished to the wastelands of Egalitarianism?

You'll probably get some snide comments from time to time. But overall I think MRA's subscribe to "live and let live." Several transwomen like Theryn Myer have made solid MRA videos.

mikesteane · 2016-01-18T05:51:32+00:00

If you do not suffer from pathological envy, you are not a feminist. Feminism is a collective delusion resulting from the inability of women to be men's equals in the roles that naturally fall to men. It cannot be appeased by concession because envy is not of that nature. Giving women "affirmative action" only emphasises the fact that women need special help to be men's equals in the role of men. Thus the envy is reinforced.

So where am I then? I always kind of considered myself an Egalitarian

Depends what you mean by egalitarian. Are laws preventing people from shaving in public toilets the same for people of all classes and genders? Obviously, they constrict only those with a need to do this: homeless men.

I would suggest that, as a transgender woman, your first hurdle is to come to terms with who you are and how you fell about it and only after you have done that will you be able to see clearly the world around you and its politics. Which you actually seem to do rather well.

Title	I guess I am officially done toying with feminism, I guess this is my place now?
Author	Princeso_Bubblegum
Upvotes	72
Comments	81
Date	January 18, 2016 4:14 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/41h935/i_guess_i_am_officially_done_toying_with_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-guess-i-am-officially-done-toying-with-feminism.958304 https://theredarchive.com/post/958304

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