Abortion

a-man-from-earth · 2020-12-01T22:38:50+00:00

We are a pro-choice community. This is one of the points that's not up for discussion in LWMA. By way of exception, I'll allow people to explain their view in this topic.

But outside of this topic, anti-choice messages will be removed and may be cause for a ban.

dasmachtkeinensinn · 2020-12-01T18:17:55+00:00

I would agree with you you just have to be carefull that you dont create an power dynamic where one sex can decide everything. Woman should have the choice not to be a mother without legal consequences and man should also have the right to not be a father.

Skirt_Douglas · 2020-12-01T18:16:18+00:00

Pro-choice, and I agree with you on paper abortions.

DeepIsland8373 · 2020-12-01T19:53:49+00:00

Most MRAs I see across reddit and on other SM are mostly pro-life, and it doesn't really align with my own viewpoints.

That's not true. i've seen a poll on r/MensRights subreddit and 85% voted pro choice.

I'm pro choice.

Sanatlas · 2020-12-01T20:03:32+00:00

Women should have the right to abort. Men should have the right to abstain from paying child support, if the woman chooses not to abort.

GalileosTele · 2020-12-01T18:31:36+00:00

What do you mean 100% legal? Do you think it should be legal to have one after your water breaks? How about a week before the due date? Or two weeks? In my experience people who say 100% legal don’t actually say yes to these questions, so they do think there should be some legal restrictions on abortion. Of course it maybe easy to be opposed to such an extreme scenario, but then the question becomes when should the cutoff be, and most people when pressed, aren’t so sure.

Oncefa2 · 2020-12-01T18:37:04+00:00

I've never seen these pro-life MRAs you're talking about.

Some may personally be against it for themselves but they're not against taking away other people's choices.

z770i1 · 2020-12-01T19:54:41+00:00

I'm 100% fine with abortion, but i would want the father to have the right to not pay for child support.

sno_cone_thehomeloan · 2020-12-01T21:54:08+00:00

I’m pro-choice, for both men and women. I feel like feminists say “it’s a woman’s choice” because they know that after the abortion debate is finally put to bed and it is fully legalized, the next topic of conversation will be a man’s right to choose, and they’re covering their ass ahead of time. It’s a person’s right to choose whether or not they want to be a parent, it’s a woman’s right to choose whether to abort the baby.

thereslcjg2000 · 2020-12-02T07:03:37+00:00

I don’t have the same experience as you. In my experience most MRAs are pro choice, though a significant fraction is pro life. I definitely lean towards the pro choice side, which the exception of late term abortions.

UnHope20 · 2020-12-02T14:24:31+00:00

My experience with the MRAs is that the bulk are pro-choice.

I thought they were mostly pro-life too because the media has taught us to think of all advocacy on the part of men as being right wing.

There are a number of cognitive biases at play here which explain why we tend to believe them to be pro-life. But they're really just that: cognitive distortions.

In reality, they tend to be a mixed bag. You notice/recall the instances where an MRA said something pro-life because the majority don't really talk about abortion at all except for the select (Extremely vocal) few who do express these views.

Since this is the only time you here about it from people in this group, you mistakenly assume that these views are reflective of the entire group.

To answer your question: this is a pro-choice sub... For BOTH sexes.

Pregnancy abortion for women

And

Financial abortion for men

Dragonsdesire1 · 2020-12-01T19:00:04+00:00

Pro abortion up to a point (I think 23 weeks is the widely accepted point) and paper abortions until that point. If the man isn't notified of the pregnancy he has that amount of time from when he is told to choose to give up rights or be the father

jacksleepshere · 2020-12-01T18:45:54+00:00

What I think pro-choicers don’t get is that it isn’t misogynistic to be pro-life. Abortion has nothing to do with the woman and everything to do with the foetus, ie when does a human gain their human rights.

Having said that I am pro-abortion to an extent, I think most western countries have a good law on abortion, it’s about 6 months in the UK where I live and that’s when I think the cut-off for abortion should be because it’s about that time when a foetus’ cns starts to develop and they can experience things like pain, hunger, touch etc. I think that’s the point a foetus should have their own individual rights regardless of whether they are dependent on another human or not. So imo before 6 months it should be legal, and after 6 months it should be illegal.

I will still defend someone else’s opinion on pro-life if they think a human should gain their human rights at conception. I don’t agree with that, but it still isn’t misogynistic to have that opinion.

Honokeman · 2020-12-01T21:35:35+00:00

I see abortion like any other invasive medical procedure, for example, open heart surgery.

Ideally, you don't need one, and we should be giving people all the information they need to avoid needing one.

If you're in a situation where you might need one, you should discuss with your doctor the possible risks and benefits, as well as possible alternatives, so that you can make the right choice for you.

So yeah, I'd say I'm pro-choice. I don't think I would ever get an abortion (I mean, I'm a guy, so obviously not, but if I were a woman...), but I don't think my preferences on abortion should restrict someone else's medical care.

There are some metaphysically interesting topics, such as the ethics of aborting a fetus with downs syndrome, or aborting a fetus based on its sex, but I'm not sure you could effectively legislate those.

Katmakit · 2020-12-02T05:09:05+00:00

Pro choice both ways, woman get to choose to abort, and men get to chose to not pay child support if the woman doesn’t abort/give up all parental rights.

2020-12-02T07:41:10+00:00

Pro Choice. For males and females

BloomingBrains · 2020-12-01T22:07:13+00:00

I subscribe to Locke's view of personhood, and the argument proceeds from there.

There is a distinction between being a human and being a person.
Personhood is determined by having memories.
Fetuses don't show brain activity up until the third trimester (they have no memories).
Fetuses are not a person.
Murder can only be committed against a person (or else shedding skin cells would be murder).
Most abortions happen before the third trimester, unless the pregnancy would pose a risk for the mother and/or child.
Conclusion: Abortions are not murder, but even when they are, can still be ethically justified.

That said, if a woman wants the kid and the man doesn't, he should be able to opt out of fatherhood and absolve himself of all financial responsibilities but also all visitation rights (legal abortion).

HogurDuDesert · 2020-12-01T18:35:49+00:00

Pro-abortion as well and pro legal parental surrender.

YooGeOh · 2020-12-01T19:13:15+00:00

Pro choice. Pro education so that in many instances it isnt a necessity. Pro taking actions that avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place. (Rape and underage pregnancies stand on their own of course).

The option should absolutely be available for those who need it and or want it, but I feel a lot of the campaigning around it markets abortion as something other than what it should be; a last resort that women hopefully won't need. Its not a party, its not a good time, its a place women go to do something they'd rather not have to.

TintelFroot · 2020-12-01T20:21:29+00:00

It should be legal up until viability so 24 weeks give or take, but I hate discussing it because it's one point in men's right I feel will never become equal. The government will never take responsibility away from men, even if it would be fair I.E. when men want to commit a "paper abortion" and it can leave me seething sometimes because I really care about "true equality".

2020-12-01T21:32:45+00:00

I'm totally pro-choice, but I also believe that choice comes into play before intercourse and not just after conception.

Women should absolutely have the right to abort an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy, but with the plethora of contraceptive options made so readily available to women I think falling pregnant in the first place is something of a choice too. I'm in no way denying that contraceptive methods can be disruptive and/or uncomfortable for women, and it can fail as well, so for contraceptive failures I think abortion can be a completely legitimate necessity, and the same goes for complications during a planned pregnancy. However, if a woman falls pregnant through her own contraceptive carelessness then wants to abort because a child would be inconvenient to her, my sympathy dwindles significantly. I wouldn't argue to deny her an abortion, but I can see where the pro-life argument comes from in such a situation.

I just think women should be expected to take responsibility for their fertility in the same way men are, and both sexes should have equal say when it comes to a decision on how to handle the prospect of a child (whatever happened to the concept of "we got pregnant"?). But for some reason the zeitgeist is such that women only get to take responsibility for the abortion decision, and then the burden is 100% theirs with the "no uterus, no opinion" attitude towards men.

As an aside, I'm very interested to see how the abortion debate would change if a male contraceptive pill ever became viable.

e874yn094eyhu90 · 2020-12-01T22:12:28+00:00

Perfectly put. This is the way.

FesseEnChocolat · 2020-12-01T23:36:05+00:00

Dont have kids if you dont want to, we dont need more orphans/ hurt and dysfonctionnal people.

A woman has the right to have the baby or not, and a man should have the choice to care about the baby or not.

duhhhh · 2020-12-02T22:00:32+00:00

Personally I feel that abortion should 100% be legal

Men are statistically more likely than women to say abortion should be legal in most cases. Once you get into stuff like 39th week abortions for nonmedical reasons, the majority of supporters are women. That is where the "men controlling women's bodies" narrative comes from despite the fact that men are slightly more likely to be pro-choice (in the overwhelming majority of cases) than women.

buddhone · 2020-12-01T19:27:43+00:00

Pro choice for both men and women. As things stands now, we have an imbalance and a right for women that men don't have.

Blauwpetje · 2020-12-01T20:27:28+00:00

Carl Sagan proposed a limit of twelve weeks. He was quite liberal and his wife was one of the best biologists in the world, so I tend to think he had a reasonable point. Also, twelve weeks is time enough to find out you're pregnant and make an appointment for an abortion - at least when you don't have to wait too long.

matrixislife · 2020-12-01T22:04:16+00:00

I dislike the whole pro-life and pro-choice groupings, as if people can only ever fit into 1 of 2 groups there.
I'm in the UK where I think we've got abortion just about right. I've known and worked with girls and women who have had abortions for various reasons, and whatever happens they should be allowed to make their choice in a clear state of mind. Having someone scream at you on a pavement just before you make a decision is blatantly cruel.

While I dislike the thought that I could father a child and a woman kill that foetus off without my having any say in the matter, I do get the whole "my body my choice" thing. It's a feature of biology, there's no real options to change that until we get artificial incubators, not happening soon afaik.

I do agree with the idea of a paper abortion. It's inherently unfair to saddle someone with a lifelong commitment based on someone else's choices. As long as governments are under the thumb of feminism however I can't see that changing any time soon.

I see your comment about /r/mensrights being "a breeding ground for conservatives and occasionally far-right propaganda." I disagree. It's generally aligned opposed to feminism which according to the 2 choices were allowed to have forces it into the right wing group apparently. Pity I am left wing and a regular poster in that sub then, I've never had any hassle for that. It's useful to realise that some men seek that sub out as a resource just after they've been seriously screwed in life, a little tolerance is a good thing.

diogofd8 · 2020-12-01T23:47:32+00:00

Let's make things simple. Do we actually want equality? Then let's make it fair. If she's pregnant?

0) The pregnancy is the result of rape?
Abortion is optional. The person who got raped chooses. If the woman raped, then the guy is out of any responsibility even if she avoids abortion. If the guy is the rapist then he's forced to pay child support. In both cases, both should be in prison. If the woman gives birth, her sentence is delayed until he child is not in her care.
It's impossible here to give fully equal terms because of the ways of nature. Regardless, the one who got raped should have nothing to do with the child unless he/she chooses to. The rapist should be forced to pay child support in any case. But please abort.

1) Both parents want the kid?
They have the kid.

2) The mother does not want the kid. The father does?
Option A) She pays atonement to the father. She covers all the costs of the abortion and takes all responsibility.
Option B) She gives birth to the child but gives him to the father. Both sign an agreement that he is the sole parent of the kid and after pregnancy she's free to go. (optional) father provides care for the pregnant mother all the way till the baby is born.

3) The father does not want the kid. The mother does?
Option A) She aborts. The father covers the costs of abortion and pays the same amount of atonement to the mother in (2A).
Option B) She has the kid but signs the same deal in (2B) where she assumes sole parenting of the kid. In this situation the father is not legally forced to provide care during pregnancy.

4) They both don't want the child.
Abort it. Think of being born without any parent love or care. Would you like to be raised in an orphanage because your parents left you in a dumpster? Enough with miserable lives, just like a baby isn't an adult, a feetus isn't a baby. It's better to end it before it starts miserably. Human rights should include the right to being born in a caring environment, barbaric times are long gone.

toufikofcourse · 2020-12-01T19:33:10+00:00

Abortion is not guys' business. Also abortion is not a guys' financial responsibility. If a girl doesn't want abortion, it's totally her responsibility to provide for the baby.

2020-12-01T20:39:14+00:00

I'm not one of those anti-feminist men's rights guys and totally pro-choice

Imperator_Pyra · 2020-12-01T19:28:07+00:00

Let me answer with a meme: "Pro-life or pro-choice? Dude, I'm pro-letarian, of course I support the struggle of women for freedom and the right to self-determination."

Real talk, though, I feel like all the "pro-life" people don't actually care about anyone's life. More appropriate terms for their stance would be "anti-choice" and/or "pro-birth".

They're laughable, birth is what they care about, at best, not life, after the baby is born no one cares what happens, so it's not "pro-life" in any real way.

2020-12-01T18:17:28+00:00

Pro-abortion. Antinatalist.

z770i1 · 2020-12-01T19:54:56+00:00

What is paper abortions?

pooinetopantelonimoo · 2020-12-01T20:24:29+00:00

I'm actually pro-choice and I would like the decision to be 50:50 between parents, but I know this can't be the case while the partner who's pregnant carries the baby. That's why I'm excited about the artificial wombs that are being worked on at the moment. Dont want the baby but your partner does? Quick easy op and the baby can grow up with the parent that wants it. The future will not be pro-choice or pro-life but equal choice.

ZeroAssassin72 · 2020-12-01T21:17:47+00:00

paper abortions?

a-man-from-earth · 2020-12-01T22:21:18+00:00

[permanently deleted]

kanray86 · 2020-12-02T00:06:29+00:00

the government should not dictate abortion and choice for women, nor should it dictate paper abortion for men

CoffeehasSentience · 2020-12-02T03:19:26+00:00

100% pro-abortion. Don't care about the reason. Any reason is good reason.

2020-12-02T00:50:12+00:00

Legal, subsidized, free at point of service under an ideal Universal Healthcare plan. Same with birth control and sanitary products(Pads, tampons etc...).

YuenHsiaoTieng · 2020-12-02T10:50:26+00:00

Sterilize all humans. Until then, your way is a good half measure.

Oishiio42 · 2020-12-01T20:21:58+00:00

My viewpoint (I'm a woman) is that reproductive rights and bodily autonomy are two separate and related concerns. I think it's important to remember that male concerns is only about reproductive rights and female concerns includes both. Which is why I absolutely hate the term 'paper abortion', because it implies it's the male equivalent, which it isn't.

Women have to worry about parenthood and pregnancy, men just have to worry about parenthood. And yes, by securing abortion rights, we've (tried) to empower women to make decisions about both, and men are lagging behind because they cannot make decisions about the one that affects them. So I agree that reproductive rights need to be granted for men, but not so much so that it erases what we've done for women.

To me that means primarily making reversible vesectomies accessible. Funding research for male birth control options in general, though as I understand it it's rather difficult for hormonal control because of rates of semen reproduction basically requiring very high doses constantly. These things fully because it's just men doing things to their own bodies. Fund that until the sun goes down.

And yes, giving men the ability to opt out in unintentional pregnancy - but we have to be careful here. In order for this to work, women have to be able to have reasonable access to abortion. I can see states thinking this is acceptable when they have one abortion clinic in the whole state and all this does is make the most impoverished mothers worse off because they can't get an abortion and they also can't get support from the father. There also has to be a rather small window where he is able to do so (presumably sometime between 3-6 weeks of pregnancy) because otherwise his rights are ebbing into robbing the woman involved of her autonomy -ie. Gestating under false pretenses and then being put in a situation where she either has to abort (if she can) or be a single mother, or she has to give up a wanted baby for adoption.

And then when we get into cases of rape, reproductive coercion, and actually planning a pregnancy, it gets even more complicated because all those things should disqualify him from being able to opt out. A man shouldn't be able to agree to have a child and then opt out later when she's pregnant. Nor should he be able to rape or tamper with birth control and do the same.

Jakeybaby125 · 2020-12-01T19:49:53+00:00

I'm personally pro-life except in cases of rape, incest or the mother's life is in danger

Iaboveall · 2020-12-01T19:25:50+00:00

I have no issue with abortion for reasons such as rape, incest, mother or fetal mortality. What I take issue with is the notion that babies are disposable like garbage because it's not convenient. Abortion is now being used as birth control instead of the last resort like it used to be. It's not teaching people to be responsible when they can "just get an abortion".

And if men can't have an opinion about abortion, don't ask us to financially contribute to the child once it's born. Seems like women have all the reproductive rights and men have none. If a woman wants to be a mother, great, if not and has an abortion, she's an empowered female. If a man doesn't want to become a father, he's a dead-beat dad and on the hook for the next 18 years. It feels like women are rewarded for their bad choices and men are punished for choices that were not theirs, to begin with.

DevilishRogue · 2020-12-01T22:03:15+00:00

The current time limit for abortions is excessive to the point that late term abortions are literal murder as we've seen prematurely birthed children live before then. A more sensible term limit for abortions would be around 8-10 weeks with a mandatory general anaesthesia administered to the fetus at anything beyond zygote development. Anyone calling this a pro-life position hasn't understood the subject matter.

Title	Abortion
Author	egalitarianfox
Upvotes	56
Comments	146
Date	December 1, 2020 6:02 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/k4q8bm/abortion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/abortion.1062417 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062417

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