"Men's forcefully drafting was done by men so we (women) aren't at fault"

NiceTraining7671 · 2024-05-27T21:07:19+00:00

Three things:

Men are the ones who actually challenge the draft in court. Look during WW1, WW2, the Cold War era…it was mostly men who challenged the legality of the draft.
Women have been complicit in the drafting of men. Look at the white feather campaign in Britain. Think about the amount of mothers and wives during the Second World War who expected their sons and husbands to fight.
Only powerful men make the rules. It’s 18-25 year olds who are most commonly drafted. In the US, 18 year olds were conscripted in WW2 but guess what…18 year olds didn’t have the right to vote then. So how are men at fault for getting drafted? Lawmakers are responsible for men getting drafted.

DownwindLegday · 2024-05-27T20:31:45+00:00

From 1875 to 2004 and statistically examined gender differences in military aggression. They found that 36% of the female leaders initiated at least one militarized dispute, while only 30% of male leaders did the same.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/03/08/sheryl-sandberg-says-female-leaders-dont-go-to-war-heres-what-research-says/?sh=527800a41fa7

Edit fixed link

SomeSugondeseGuy · 2024-05-27T20:54:10+00:00

It's simplifying a complex issue. Yeah sure, it was caused by people who happen to be men, but those people are also rich and powerful - which has much more of an effect on their ability to do that than their genitals do.

Normally I respond with something like:

"And 60% of gynecologists are women, so it's actually women's fault that IUD insertion rarely involves anesthetic. Just because it's done by someone who looks like you doesn't mean it's any less painful or discriminatory."

henrysmyagent · 2024-05-27T21:11:07+00:00

Ukraine is a perfect microcosm of the inconsistency inherent in feminism.

Women are the equals of men...until the start bombs dropping.

Did the Ukrainian women of military age sign up to defend their country from the Russian invaders en masse?

A few did.

The vast majority of those women ran to Poland and other countries. The brave young women of Ukraine are perfectly content to fight the Russians to the last drop of Ukrainian men's blood.

Women loudly demand equal rights with men, and equally loudly refuse to accept the responsibilities that are required to secure those rights.

Punder_man · 2024-05-27T21:39:00+00:00

I'm pretty sure there's research out there which proved that even in middle ages, Queens were universally more likely to start wars than Kings were..

Wars in which the majority of the forces would be made up of male peasants who had no choice but to fight and die in a war demanded by their queen..

The idea is to paint things as "Only men cause war" so they can attempt to brush away responsibility..
I also note that women / feminists don't seem to be all that vocal about removing the requirement to be drafted from enjoying the same rights and privileges they get to enjoy without having to agree to serve their country in times of war..

Privileges like:

Being able to vote on who runs the country
Getting a Drivers license
Getting Federal / Government welfare / support / student loans..

Women get access to ALL of those without agreeing to fight / die for their country or to be "Drafted" to breed more babies for their country etc..

Where as men only get access to the above privileges by also agreeing to the responsibility of potentially being drafted and sent to fight in a war..

I imagine the draft would be ended overnight if it involved women agreeing to be "Drafted" to risk their lives giving birth to babies "For the good of the country"
But hell, even if they tried to mandate that.. Feminists would fight it, stop it and then continue the status quo of men being drafted while giving lip service "I don't think anyone should be drafted"

CaptSnap · 2024-05-27T21:27:07+00:00

Ask them if they feel Clarence Thomas should resign from the Supreme Court bcause of his wife's views/activism.

In case you hadnt heard

so its sort of old news now...but at the time it really highlighted the Progressive hypocrisy here.

Clarence Thomas is a patriarch, has all the power, all the privilege..women never had power or responsibility.

But here is Ginni Thomas who apparently does have some kind of "soft power" and now suddenly its an issue. Progressives suddenly woke up to the reality thta maybe women were more than witless children on this wld ride calld all of fucking civilization.

But then shortly after it was back to women never had power and certainly no respnosibiity, forever and always.

So thats the rub, does soft power exist? and if it does...did it too elude women for all forever in all cultures? I mean at some point its blatantly sexist how little we must think of historical women.

_name_of_the_user_ · 2024-05-27T20:55:48+00:00

Their argument depends on seeing women as useless and not a part of society, while seeing men as all controlling. (Hypoagents vs. hyperagents). Women very much were a part of society and are today, and men aren't all powerful God's.

The way to dispute it is to highlight how misogynistic they're being.

ManofIllRepute · 2024-05-28T00:18:34+00:00

Her statement implies that all men are a singular class with similar class-based interests. Dunno why men are assumed to be a class with no delineations within the grouping. Anyway, ask her if she thinks if all black people share a class interest with Clarence Thomas, Kanye, Lebron, Oprah, and Beyonce. I can almost guarantee you she'll say no. And if she does say no, then query why does she think men all share a singular class based interest.

The logics fall-apart when you think of international conflict. I highly doubt she believes Israeli and Palestinian men have similar interests.

Honestly, this woman doesn't understand what a patriarchy entails. Patriarchy is not anything a man does, and men are not understood as a class in feminist thought. Legal feminist scholar Nancy Dowd's The Man Question explores this quite well.The orientation of patriarchal systems tend to a hierarchical structure with specific group at the top; in the US, it'll be white, wealthy upper class men; China, presumably it'll be wealthy Han men; Nigeria, wealthy, native born Nigerian men; etc.

The men who are drafted are generally not the children of the elite.

And draft dodging seems to be a preferred hobby among our elite.

Stephen_Morgan · 2024-05-28T06:23:36+00:00

In Austria they had a referendum on conscription. Most men voted to abolish it, but there were more female voters, and they voted to continue subjecting men, and only men, to conscription.

It's being brought back in Poland, after polling showed that most men are against it, but most women are in favour. Women won't be conscripted.

Estonia and Finland refused to take Russian refugees fleeing conscription for the war in Ukraine. Both have conscription for men only, both had female prime ministers who had never been conscripted. Maintaining the idea that male only conscription is legitimate was more important than denying soldiers to the "enemy".

In Denmark and Korea, feminist organisations had led the effort to prevent women being conscripted.

So maybe it "was done" by men, but it IS done at least as much by women.

Current_Finding_4066 · 2024-05-27T21:46:15+00:00

It is still being done, so they can stuff such excuses up their asshole.

WhenWolf81 · 2024-05-27T23:18:51+00:00

Men forcefully drafting was done by men so women aren't at fault

These men in power are representatives, elected officials, who have been voted into office by both men and women. As such, both genders share responsibility and blame since these representatives are acting on behalf of all constituents.

Additionally, the issue is not the gender of the representatives, but rather the system or the necessity to protect/defend oneself. Therefore, replacing these men in power with women would lead to the same outcome.

WanabeInflatable · 2024-05-28T05:30:05+00:00

Women are the majority of voters in practically every country. Voters decide which government and parliament to vote in. These women vote in the men who particularly discriminate men to the favor of women.

There is at least one country where draft was abolished by a male president and then reinstated by female president - Lithuania.

Countries that are considered most feminist - northern Europe have draft. I.e amount of power women have in society doesn't contribute to emancipation of men.

Jaffacakes-and-Jesus · 2024-05-28T07:03:22+00:00

You can also point out that this is the ultimate proof that rule by men is not rule for men. The fact that elite men are prepared to do this to the rest of us suggests that they are not acting in our interests most of the time. Leftist anti-war analysis 101 is that the ruling class exploits the working class through war. Why chuck out that analysis and take a very victim blamey stance of "men doing it to themselves" just because you know that if you acknowledge there are forms of class based exploitation that hit men worse? Is it because you know that if you did have to question whether describing men primarily as privileged oppressors is a good idea? That it is probably actually helping the ruling class to obscure their sex based exploitation of men and undermining solidarity in the face of gender based bullshit?

You can also emphasise that countries with female MPs also bring in and enforce sex based drafts. And that historically ruling class women are part and parcel of whatever war machine is in operation (the Yorkist and Lancastrian women during the Wars of the Roses for example). There have also been times when political activism by women helps to create and enforce a sex based draft. US women asking for the vote without offering to be drafted, conservative women objectingera to the ERA on the grounds of the draft being extended to them, women in one of the Nordic countries (I forget which one) voting to keep the draft sex based, the white feather girls and many other contexts in which women are the cheerleaders of the battlefield.

Is the point of talking about gender on the left to end gender based exploitation or to blame men for everything?

PlatformStriking6278 · 2024-05-27T23:19:56+00:00

Well, it isn’t women’s fault, but it isn’t “men’s” either. It’s difficult to know the intended implications of such a statement. Of course, any conclusions drawn from it would likely be treating each of the genders as a monolith. The social trends that have disadvantaged men throughout history were not self-inflicted by the individuals who were subjected to those restrictive gender roles. Or they could simply be trying to deflect responsibility by acknowledging the lack of agency that their group played in the development of these gender roles, which is selfish to say the least. Women still take responsibility for their own social activism while simultaneously limiting men’s ability to participate and calling men to action. Social activism shouldn’t be limited to the group that a specific prejudice personally affects, and if it was left to the group that experienced privileges as a result of these social constructs or that allegedly created the system, then nothing would get done. As others have said, it makes no sense to broaden the agency involved in the causes of a specific oppressive system arbitrarily to a group that they want to hate. Correlation doesn’t equal causation, and their oversimplified perspective of history just neglects relevant counter evidence in favor of an emphasis on the relevant subsets of that irrelevant category (not all men but always men type thing).

GNSGNY · 2024-05-27T23:37:34+00:00

poor men are drafted by rich people

TheSpaceDuck · 2024-05-27T23:23:49+00:00

Ok this will be a long one, but I decided to make a small compilation since this topic (and excuse) comes up so often. Here are a few relevant examples:

1 - First and most obvious: It wasn't always done by men. In fact, queens were 27% more likely to wage war than kings. As someone else here pointed out, modern female leaders have also waged war more frequently than male ones. Out of all these female leaders, the amount that drafted women was the grand total of zero.

For a more modern example, in Lithuania male-only conscription was re-introduced by a woman (Dalia Grybauskaite).

Another one which does not involve a leader, but the politician who actually made the decision: In Germany it was a woman named Lisa Paus, Federal Ministry of Family Affairs, who ensured that self-determination law for transgender people would not apply to the draft, to avoid men using it to evade it.

2 - When we look away from leaders and into supporters of the male-only draft, the influence of women is even greater. For example, during WWI there was a movement by the Suffragettes (the first feminists) to shame young men they saw for not fighting in the war, by giving them a white feather that symbolized cowardice.

Recently in Poland there was a poll on whether to reintroduce mandatory military service, only for men. Most men said no (58% no, 39% yes), most women said yes (47% no, 49% yes).

Also recently in Denmark, when there was a proposal for mandatory military conscription to be gender-neutral, it was not only women but feminists who opposed it.

Note on the last 2 examples: Mandatory military service is not the same as the draft. You can have a gender-neutral mandatory service and still have only men being forced into war. Or you can have no mandatory military service at all, and that won't stop people (in most cases, men) from being drafted in case of war.

3 - Efforts to make the draft gender-neutral have come from men's rights organizations, not women's organizations. Most successful one so far was the NCFM (National Coalition for Men), which managed to bring the case to a judge, who the male-only draft as unconstitutional. Unfortunately, that's just the beginning of the battle, but a major milestone nonetheless.

Camelsnake · 2024-05-27T22:13:52+00:00

Men were treated differently than women. Some good some bad. I don't think it can be simplified into who was treated worse

SvitlanaLeo · 2024-05-28T00:11:13+00:00

There are no such things as collective fault and collective innocence of social groups.

Shingz101 · 2024-05-28T04:01:05+00:00

Can make the point more women bully other women in regards to clothing choices so all the mental health issues with regards to body issues has nothing to do with men

Hatethehater33 · 2024-05-27T21:27:53+00:00

I love owning the woke women on this one because in my woke blm supporting anti confederate statue city it was a black female police chief who gave the order to use the same exact CS gas that saddam Hussein did on children and civilians in my town. It was a black woman who did that one not the patriarchy lol

Eaglingonthemoor · 2024-05-28T00:56:08+00:00

This one is an example of where a thoughtful feminist should actually be on your side. Women are not "at fault" for war time drafts but the compulsory drafting of exclusively men conceptualises men as automatically protectors and aggressors and women as automatically weak and in need of protection. It is an extremely feminist issue and your best argument would be to point out that any good feminist would care about this immensely and not just write it off as "man problems."

luther9 · 2024-05-28T01:24:03+00:00

Are they trying to argue for a men-only draft? Why should we care whose fault it is? Not to mention the fact that they're invoking collective guilt as an excuse to hold back progress, which is reprehensible in itself.

LucastheMystic · 2024-05-27T23:07:00+00:00

This is the same gender that shamed British Men who didn't want to fight and die in WWI. They can get out my face with that shit.

Archangel1313 · 2024-05-28T02:30:18+00:00

Technically, no one is "at fault" for policies like those, except the assholes who implemented them. However, women were exempt from the draft in almost all cases, so it is a primarily sexist policy regardless of who's to blame.

ArmchairDesease · 2024-05-28T07:33:35+00:00

No need to refute anything. Agree with them and then take their logic to its consequences.

- Yes. The Draft was set up by men in power. It's one of the many misdeeds of the Patriarchy.

Now that we agree on that...let's fight it. After all, as feminists, it's your mission to fight against the Patriarchy's wrongdoings, right? -

If they refuse to protest it anyway, then they are admitting they only care for stuff that affects women and, therefore, that feminists is indeed not for equality.

1stthing1st · 2024-05-28T07:43:31+00:00

I had a woman on Reddit trying to tell me war harm women more than man. If you count rape on the battlefield.

savethebros · 2024-05-28T12:42:08+00:00

Replace every male government official with a woman, and literally nothing would change regarding to the draft.

btw Finland has a female PM but still has a male-only draft

Jolly_97 · 2024-05-28T17:02:31+00:00

I don't understand how people are totally incapable of understanding that I am not my great great father

Bagelblast23 · 2024-05-27T23:23:10+00:00

I mean yeah, of course women in general aren't at fault for these systems. They are still an example of a form of gendered oppression unique to men, imposed not by the men being drafted but by the few in power, mostly other men (who would never be drafted anyway) but also increasingly by powerful women (though not the average woman, obviously).

The draft, like most things, is not a men vs women issue, but a power vs powerless issue. One that just so happens to primarily affect the men in that second group.

Blauwpetje · 2024-05-29T09:23:56+00:00

Feminists fought for more leading female politicians and CEO’s. They NEVER fought for more female soldiers. (An exception may have been revolutionary feminists who applauded female guerrilla warriors, but they hardly ever decided to fight themselves.) And not all feminists were pacifists, so the others thought it apparently alright that men died for them.

Banake · 2024-05-29T16:19:27+00:00

Many women supported the draft. Read about the white feathers movement. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/11/first-world-war-white-feather-cowardice

radulakoleszka · 2024-06-11T23:20:59+00:00

The blame for the draft should go to those who put it in power, not a gender. There is nothing to refute.

MaudyReddit · 2025-05-12T06:59:29+00:00

50 percent of the voting age citizens are female. So if they say it’s a men’s world when they themselves make up half of the population, why let them vote in the first place if they aren’t even going to try to fight for equality of all genders and not just their own privileges.

VisceralSardonic · 2024-05-27T21:31:33+00:00

I mean, what point are you hoping to make in refuting the statement? The wording and message would change depending on what you disagree with here, because I’m a little confused by your wording.

The draft is sexist, deadly, and harmful to men, and is based on the theory that women are not capable of or supposed to fight on the front lines. I don’t think anyone would refute that.

Are you arguing that women ARE responsible? I will say, lawmakers during all of these periods WERE primarily men. That’s not to say that women have never voted or pushed for a sexist draft policy, but even during the most recent 1971 draft lottery, I believe there were only 12 women in all of congress. At various points when cases were brought to courts to argue for or against the draft, women were not/barely even on juries, let alone acting as judges. That’s a very different discussion than the abolition of the draft though, so there are nuances here too.

Are you trying to say that women should be doing more to protect their homelands? This is an argument that depends on the war and the context too. The American perspective (war happens Over There to someone else’s homeland) leads to very different demographics than when war is an invasion. I know Ukraine is referenced a lot here as well.

Are you just discussing the callousness of the “well, not my fault so shhh” approach? Heard.

What part do you fundamentally disagree with that you’re looking for perspective on?

"Men's forcefully drafting was done by men so we (women) aren't at fault"

Comments

Stop generalising! It creates more hate!

Title	"Men's forcefully drafting was done by men so we (women) aren't at fault"
Author	The_Better_Paradox
Upvotes	191
Comments	106
Date	May 27, 2024 4:09 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1d1v3s8/mens_forcefully_drafting_was_done_by_men_so_we/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/mens-forcefully-drafting-was-done-by-men-so-we.1519727 https://theredarchive.com/post/1519727