Let's see what happens... (x-post from imgur)

[–]planned_serendipity1 46 points47 points48 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Rullknufs 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Box-Monkey 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rullknufs 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I was drunk. Left the shitty nightclub at like 2:30 or so in the morning. Standing with my friends waiting to go home. We don't go because one of my friends is talking to some guy. Somehow I walk away from them and end up talking with a girl. She seems nice (that's what I though then) and we keep talking for a while end end up outside a fish&chips shop and we share some with another guy. I say I should get back to my mates and get the taxi home together with them. She says I can stay at her place because she lives in town and I live like 20km outside. I think that sounds like a great idea because then I can take the bus back home in the morning instead.

We start walking to her place in the pouring rain. We get there and along the way I find out she's only 16 years old (I'm 18) but I think "what the heck, I'm only sleeping there" so I stick to the idea. When we get to her place she tells me she alone in the house. Her parents are on some kind of vacation and her brother is still out somewhere. She tells me we sleep in her parents bed because her bed is too small, which seems like an ok idea to me. We start making out a bit but I'm so tired and it just feels wrong. She's too young. I feel like a pedo so I just want to go to sleep, wake up in the morning and then get away from there. She crawls over on top of me, sits on me and starts rubbing her pussy on me like crazy. She does this several times and since I'm such a nice guy I don't throw her off me. Who knows, she might turn angry and accuse me of raping her or something. After reading all the horror stories here on /r/mensrights I'm not so confident any more. After an hour of getting on and off me she finally gives up. I kept my underwear on and no penetration happened, thank god.

I wake up the morning after and realise that she wasn't that attractive at all. She wasn't ugly, but she wasn't attractive either. I leave at like ten in the morning, go buy some breakfast and stroll around town in the rain for three hours before I can take the bus back home.

[–]Box-Monkey 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rullknufs 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is what I like with the men's right movement. We are open minded and see the truth. Not like the feminist movement that refuses to accept that men have problems as well (maybe not as many as women though). Indeed we must stop fighting eachother and instead fight for equality.

I don't feel that bad about the incident. I mean, this is the second time I'm with a girl, first time in bed with one, so in that way it was ok. But the thing I didn't like was that she was so "on top of me" so to speak. Maybe she should've asked me if I "wanted to have some fun" so I could politely say no. I try to not think about it so often and just remember the good things and not the bad things. I haven't met the girl since, only seen here at a distance at school. I don't want to talk to her again and hopefully I wont have to do so either.

[–]Box-Monkey 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Stop. That's in-group/out-group thinking. Everyone sees their own group as being better and more wholesome than rival groups.

Both groups view themselves as open-minded and truth-seeking, and the perceived opposition as being closed-off. The thing about both groups is that they will attract those who are doing it solely because they're hurt by the other. Men have been hurt by women; women have been hurt by men.

People, on average, will tell 9 people when they have had shitty service anywhere. On average, they will tell 2-3 people if they had a superb experience. This means that we're more vocal about negative experiences, thus the most heard thing from either group will likely be an attack or complaint against the other group.

As I see it, both groups are intending to make the world a better place, but often we're targeting the other group as being the cause of our pain. This may or may not be true, but likely it's just shitty people overall with different methods of being shitty who are at blame.

Have you considered talking to her about what happened and expressing how it bothered you? If it's highschool, I can understand your hesitations because it's such a fishbowl. But it could help you to get over it, more so than making her feel guilty.

[–]Laust17 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]burt_flaxton0 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Stick around a bit and you will see for yourself. I have posted and commented here enough times to know. I posted around 2 years ago about my concerns for circumcision and I was met with hostile and arrogant comments. Even had a few private messages about how I was not a real man, and that I was being manipulated by a woman. It seems every comment here is not received well when it questions anything that goes against men's rights. Of course, that is to be expected... it is a men's right sub. No big deal, just kind of ironic.

When the person who commented about me being downvoted, the post was -7, it is now 11 (25up|14down). Their comment is no doubt the reason it is no longer -7.

I feel that a majority of the "men" here have some sort of issue with women in general. Some may have had a bad experience with women in their life and seem to hold some resentment. Maybe not, but that is the feeling I get from a majority of the comments here.

Also, I would be interested in that government study that shows females are reported to be responsible for more rape than men.

All in all, I usually regret posting here because a movement like men's rights is something I believe in. Yet, most of the comments are really just bitching about double standards and never about anything progressive. When you have a place that is centered around self loathing and bitching... anything that gets in the way is going to be met with discord.

Just make the arrows penises and be done with it.

[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I whole heartily agree. Anything pro circumcision is met with fervent hostility as well as a lot of other topics. You will get private messages and hatred or shaming language thrown at you if you arent downvoted into oblivion.

What gets me personally is when men come here for help on their divorce or custody battle and they are told to get lost essentially (as I was) or that we arent lawyers so we cant even talk about their problems. Then it gets deleted selectively. Its beyond insanity coming from a place for men by men. If you look to the right of this post it states:

/r/MensRights strongly supports principles of free speech. People posting here are sharing their opinions. Opinions will not be removed, but actions may (see above rules).

From my own experience here, it is pretty dishonest to say that. What gets me is the rest of the group jumps on that bandwagon. Yet every critical view is met with hostility, downvotes and a whole host of other crap. I came here when I was going through a divorce and realized real quick that, this place isnt about helping men, rather more about parroting the disadvantages men have in a circlejerk, and dont dare interrupt the circle jerk. Any honest debate ive had with an anti circumcision debater exemplifies this.

Shameful really. Thats why i guess I identify more as a MGTOW compared to anything on /r/MensRights

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Id also like to add that I have had friends and other people contact me about their posts being deleted on similar grounds and its gotten to the point where if I see a similar posting to stuff I have posted about in these topics. I let them know to seek help privately through me or through another avenue or site as discussing these things will get you a delete from the mods. I find if its anything not repeating existing mantra or extremely critical of any mantra we eschew here then you are going to have a bad time in general. Yet it is no where listed in the sidebar as an offense or rule for any of these deleted posts I have ever seen. Some mods I have not had problems with at all either so its selective. /u/sillymod is a major problem IMO and obstacle to free discussion in this sub and probably one of the worst offenders.

Your mileage may vary depending on your input, but to claim this isnt a filtered and censored sub is just not accurately portraying the truth IMO.

In fact we could set up some thought experiments privately if you would like to see how quick they get deleted from here... (I say privately because they will wise up to us and play the games /r/News does in terms of censorship) We could even do some downvoting experiments as well....

[–]sillymod[M] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

You have a problem with me because I am the most active moderator, and so I tend to do the most stuff.

Comments are almost never removed, unless they have explicit sexism/racism in them. Posts are removed if they are on an unrelated topic (with an encouragement to post them in the correct subreddit), if they have been posted repeatedly before (with an encouragement for the poster to contribute to the existing discussions), and things that are intended to disrupt the subreddit.

People are free to object to a moderators actions, and all the moderators will weigh in on the subject. The majority rule wins, and the other moderators have overruled my decisions before, as has happened to all the other moderators (most recent example was a self post with links to AskFeminists, which I believed was fine but they thought should have NP links).

So you can object all you want, and you can go around spreading your rumours and claims about our "censorship", but the fact of the matter is that no content is removed due to opinions unless it is encouraged to be posted in a different subreddit.

If you have proof of this censorship, please feel free to provide it. But if you can't back up your claims, then you really are just going to appear to be a shit disturber trying to undermine people's views of the moderators.

[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

My comments about you stand. You can claim they are unrelated yet you selectively leave some be when deleting on your quest to move them to a different sub reddit. Thus i objected to that line of reasoning in its entirety. You can paint that any way you want. Its still selective and I dont buy your logic that mens divorces is off topic for MENS RIGHTS. You yourself claim you dont and I claim they are. I have deleted posts youve deleted. I have friends who have been deleted. That is my proof and that is what ive said here.

Also. Ill spread my opinion about this place as much as I choose as thats not against the rules as I understand them currently. My thoughts and expressions are my own experiences with this sub. I know anyone posting anything critical of your topics will experience the same things I have experienced.

Have a good day.

-Edit: Id also like to add. Then fine let me come across as that. You dont have a problem with people deciding on your own do you? You come across to me as a mod trying to remove me in my comments for the tiniest of reasons during any interaction with you every time. How about you let the words lie where they are and let people decide for their own who is right?

[–]sillymod2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

After your torrid rebuttal here, I will just to prove you wrong. You and I both know you've deleted posts of mine about divorces and my divorce as well. You are being extremely underhanded in the way you respond like this. Its pretty dishonest and its not fooling anyone. I am not going to try and keep arguing with you on that regard until I have photographic proof. Even when I have the proof it wont be enough. The people in the threads you deleted know, I know, my friends know. I think anyone such as the above commenter knows what its like here to go against the grain. It appears youre the one who is claiming otherwise right now. So i will oblige you and catch you in it. The problem is you have the odds stacked against me, but I will come back and I will post what I have in a different sub than this so you cannot control the conversation.

Edit- I wanted to add on this line: You and I both know you've deleted posts of mine about divorces and my divorce as well. You have even had conversations with me about how what youve deleted is fair and balanced and what ive posted is a violation.

[–]sillymod2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]sillymod2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For the record, since you seem unable to click your name, click on submitted, and then copy the link:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1j42n9/financial_woes_what_do_i_do/

This is what was removed. You threatened to commit suicide, and you were asking for financial/legal help.

We are not lawyers, as I said, and so we cannot provide legal assistance to you. Also, we have had issues in the past where SRS has come in and egged suicidal people on, encouraging them to commit suicide. As a result, I recommended you visit SuicideWatch. They are a great subreddit and can provide you with insight on places you can go to deal with your suicidal thoughts.

If you had made a post saying "I can't afford a lawyer, does anyone know where I can find out how to do X", it would have been fine. But you didn't want to do that, you just wanted to yell at me for not letting your post stay.

Edit: You also posted this http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1j49vd/deleted_from_mensright/ which was a meta post, which belonged in the meta sub. If you had posted it in the meta subreddit, I would have left it.

Just because you don't bother reading the rules, and think that you can post whatever you want, wherever you want, however you want, doesn't mean that I have to allow it. You were given plenty of options, but you are stuck in some kind of mega depression where you think the world is out to get you.

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]girlwriteswhat 22 points23 points24 points 12 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]TyrannyMcbane 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

From the report:

Most perpetrators of all forms of sexual violence against women were male. For female rape victims, 98.1% reported only male perpetrators. Additionally, 92.5% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape reported only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%). For non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, approximately half of male victims (49.0%) reported only male perpetrators and more than one-third (37.7%) reported only female perpetrators (data not shown)

[–]IdleGod -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 18 points19 points20 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

The CDC's NISVS, Full Report, pages 18 and 19 tables 2.1 and 2.2:

Previous year victims:

Female, rape: 1,270,000 (1.1%)

Male, "other sexual violence: made to penetrate": 1,267,000 (1.1%)

If you look at the definitions on page 17, "rape" and "made to penetrate" are identical, other than the mechanical question of whether the victim is the penetrator or the penetrated.

Page 24 under Sex of Perpetrator in Lifetime Reports of Sexual Violence: Males [edit for clarity] ~~reported~~ reporting only female perpetrators for "being made to penetrate" (79.2%), and sexual coercion (83.6%).

Again, most of the "rapes" against men are committed by men, because rape entails the rapist penetrating the victim. If we're talking nonconsensual sex regardless of whether the offender or the victim is the one penetrating, the numbers look very much different.

[–]madlordofestnoth 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]madlordofestnoth 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IdleGod 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IdleGod 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Here's something even more disturbing, from page 84:

As an example of prevalence differences between the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey and other surveys, the lifetime prevalence estimate of rape for men in this report is lower than what has been reported in other surveys (e.g., for forced sex more broadly) (Basile, Chen, Black, & Saltzman, 2007). This could be due in part to the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey making a distinction between rape and being made to penetrate someone else. Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national studies. It is possible that rape questions in prior studies captured the experience of being made to penetrate someone else, resulting in higher prevalence estimates for male rape in those studies.

[–]IdleGod 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Feminist Mary Koss (the originator of the 1-in-4 college women will be raped statistic, which came from a survey she did asking college women only about their victimization and college men only about their perpetration) was a consultant on the different definitions used in the sexual violence section of the NISVS. So I don't know that it's not malfeasant in some way.

Elsewhere, she has written:

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Even looking at the language she uses--"engages" implies an action or agency--that the man is participating in this unwanted sex, rather than having it forced on him. And here:

Among men, the terms “sex” and “sexual relations” may activate schemas for situations where they penetrated women. Clarification is necessary to ensure that male respondents realize that the situations of interest are those in which they were penetrated forcibly and against their will by another person, and not situations where they felt pressure or coercion to have sexual relations with a woman partner.

Penetrated forcibly and against their will when it's a male perpetrator vs felt pressure or coercion to "have sexual relations" when it's a female perpetrator. Hmmm....

She's also described men made to penetrate by women as being "ambiguous about their sexual desires". In other words, maybe they wanted it, but they just didn't KNOW they wanted it.

All this, despite the CDC's definitions:

In both rape and made to penetrate situations, this may have happened through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm; it also includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.

If the entire basis of Koss's separation of rape and "made to penetrate" is as she has herself described (that a man "engages" in his own victimization, that it is inappropriate to equate forcible penetration to "feeling coercion or pressure", and that men made to penetrate may be "ambiguous about their sexual desires") that basis is utterly contradicted by the definitions she consulted on for the CDC, which specifically uses terms like "physical force", "threats to physically harm" and "passed out and unable to consent".

She's talking out of both sides of her mouth.

Edited to add link to info and citations on Koss: http://www.genderratic.com/p/2551/male-privilege-defining-male-victims-out-of-existence/

[–]IdleGod 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The initial survey that launched her to feminist fame was done for Ms. Magazine in the 1980s. It found 1-in-4 college women had experienced rape or attempted rape from age 14 and into post-secondary. This inevitably gets translated in the feminist zeitgeist to "1-in-4 women are raped".

Oddly, only 27% of the women she classified as victims felt they were victims of rape/attempted rape. Many said it was miscommunication, a crime but not rape (this would certainly apply to some cases of "attempted rape", since you'd have to get into the offender's state of mind to know if he was just pushing boundaries and willing to back off if met with resistance, or if he was intending to have sex whether she resisted or not), and something like 10% said they didn't feel victimized.

All of that could certainly be indicative of some women being "ambiguous" about their own sexual desires, yet Koss labelled all of them rape victims nonetheless.

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Well, I'd say that a 60/40 split would qualify as an overwhelming majority in many contexts, as that means you're looking at a 3:2 ratio. Meaning you'd need a half again increase in the lower rate to make an even rate.

If a politician is leading by more than 8%, it's called a landslide victory. You're talking about a 20% difference.

Again, all that being said, I agree with the point that male victims are marginalized, I just don't support taking the feminist route of arguing all messages that don't fit perfectly with the Men's Rights mindset. 60/40 split is an overwhelming majority. but if you look at representation in media and support action, there is vastly more than a 20% difference between the amount of attention given to female-victim/male-offender sexual assault as opposed to all other types of offenses.

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Yes. It is involuntary.

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[–]Morningwoodlumberco 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Now I am no proponent of the Huffington Post, I consider myself liberal;, but it is too biased for me, however this article is pretty spot on when it comes to how the definition of rape has changed recently. This article actually references the Huffpost, but goes more in depth and has some more details. Basically, the FBI used to define Rape as a physical, sexual attack on women. Male rape had been discounted because at the time this policy was written it was believed that erections were to a degree controllable and if the man truly did not want the sex, he would not be erect.

EDIT: I tried to use sources that would mostly agree with the feminist side, and the second article goes on to attempt to rip apart the MRA perspective. I feel pointing this out is important to remove any suspicion that I cherry picked the information. I literally googled "Erection as consent" and clicked the first result.

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[–]raoulduke25 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]krakow057 -10 points-9 points-8 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]YM_Industries 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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Title	Let's see what happens... (x-post from imgur)
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	441
Comments	149
Date	September 24, 2013 1:22 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1n01em/lets_see_what_happens_xpost_from_imgur/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/lets-see-what-happens-x-post-from-imgur.1163103 https://theredarchive.com/post/1163103