“Men’s problems created by men”

TehReedster89 · 2020-10-24T13:30:15+00:00

That argument is wrong for multiple reasons at the same time. As others have mentioned, it's the apex fallacy. They see that the people at the top of the world are men, so they treat men as a group as if they are all on top of the world. But most men are just trying to get through their lives. Most men are not extra powerful just because most of the people at the top of the world might be men. But the point I really want to make here is that it unfairly looks at genders as teams. They are ironically accusing men's rights people of the exact same thing they are actually doing.

I believe in men's rights. But that does not mean that I am on the "men's team", fighting against the "women's team". I think that notion is ridiculous. I still support women's rights as well, where applicable. I think the proper approach is to acknowledge the issues everyone has, and try to fix them, rather than to declare one "team" has more problems than the other, and therefore focus only on that "team".

The irony is that the people who say "yeah, but those disadvantages are caused by other men", are treating it as if it's a team game. They think that men can't claim this or that bit of discrimination, because that discrimination is caused by other men. That approach is ridiculous. They're treating it as a team game, where it only makes sense for men to complain of sexism if it's caused by women, and women are only allowed to complain of sexism if it's caused by men. And because they believe that men rule the world, obviously they think every problem in society is caused by men, and therefore, men literally face no discrimination.

It's all around insanity. I get so frustrated with it every time I see it. Most of the time, people just deny that men have issues. But even when there's finally a thread on a subreddit like /r/television where people are agreeing that men have it bad in many areas, people will start going down that path. Saying that those problems are caused by other men. Saying that those problems are the result of the patriarchy, or of toxic masculinity, and so on. It's just so ridiculous. I don't give a rat's ass if I'm being discriminated against by exclusively men, exclusively women, or a mix of the two. The point is that I'm being discriminated against. And that discrimination is just as valid as any discrimination women face.

"Don't complain to us; it's your team causing that problem" is just the most infuriating logic. They treat MRAs as if fighting for men's rights inherently means fighting against women's. They treat MRAs as if we are fighting a men vs. women team game. But they are ironically the ones who are guilty of that. Because they refuse to acknowledge any men's issue without first blaming men, meaning they are the ones actually playing that team game.

-Cyber_Renaissance · 2020-10-24T06:15:50+00:00

Actually, more women have sent men to die at wars than men have.

and India was ruled by a woman for so long, it was a nightmare for men(still is).

-Cyber_Renaissance · 2020-10-24T04:40:57+00:00

sigh... apex fallacy

they created their own problems and expect women to fix them

sometimes I think if women just lack a general sense of fondness for men? men made such a society to cherish women & children and look at how they're showing their gratefulness.

what's up with collectivism anyway? we're individuals not a fucking hive mind like women?

EvilLothar · 2020-10-24T06:19:44+00:00

Well, to be honest about it, since almost everything in the world was/ is created by a man, in that sense, it's true. Even the problems we have with some women. Men helped create them, so.. yea..

Men gave and continue to give feminists power. If men took back their power, and stopped doing all the things that keep society functioning, feminism would quickly disappear. There are no feminists on a sinking ship.

AbysmalDescent · 2020-10-24T14:39:57+00:00

This is just a common way for feminists to absolve women of any complicity and responsibility from their actions, or the notion that women can and do shape the world as women(which would directly contradict with their personal narrative that women don't have power/agency).

Men didn't "decide" the patriarchy, they stepped up to it. They took the lead because that is what women required/demanded of them, and because that is what women responded positively to. Any hierarchy that could be placed on men, whether by men or women, means nothing if women don't live/abide by it.

But, patriarchy is most definitely imposed on men by women, not by other men. Men who have power over other men, or who exercise that power over other men, are labelled as desirable, attractive and masculine. Women flock to those men in support of their dominance(even when they have all the power and freedom to do otherwise).

This also frees them from responsibility(if the tides turn, they can just plead innocence and then jump over to the next dominant power), frees them from stress of confrontation/competition(they don't have to put in the work to compete against other men) and it frees them from most of the guilt/remorse of power(they can effectively see themselves as equal victims to those being dominated, while benefiting from an elevated status granted by the dominant powers they attach themselves to).

Women have all the power in the world to break down patriarchy, simply by making a few small changes in their daily choices. They could choose to work not just for themselves but provide for others, they could choose to pick men based on altruism rather than dominance, and they could choose to pursue roles of power for themselves by taking on the risk/responsibility of leadership. These are all things that men are expected to do but that most women willfully avoid or feel very resentful about when they do.

SophiaElvenKitten · 2020-10-24T06:03:34+00:00

Sure if a man creates his Own problems then his problems were created by a man... beyond that is nonsense.

hendrixski · 2020-10-26T14:51:19+00:00

Whenever I hear that it sounds like the assholes who respond to BLM with "bUt bLaCk on bLAck cRimE".

ApprehensiveMail8 · 2020-10-26T03:33:07+00:00

I suppose it would depend on the context of the conversation:

The word "men" can refer to all humans, male and female. So yes, technically men's problems are created by men.
The majority of the electorate is female, and has been for a century. Whether politicians themselves are male or female, they are catering to mostly females voters.
The *vast* majority of consumer spending (~70 to 80%) is female directed. Whether powerful business people are themselves male or female, they are catering to mostly female consumers.
Males are usually attempting to appeal for romantic relationships and sex.
100% of mothers are female. All men exist because of a woman's choice.

Ethical_Shreya · 2020-10-28T05:14:47+00:00

My male friend got sexually harassed and my friend's response to him was, "Become a feminist, it seems that the patriarchy has affected you as well." I wanted to slap her in the face. Like he just got harassed, and this is your response? Most misandrists I have met use the patriarchy everywhere according to their convenience, but they don't know the meaning of it at all.

parahacker · 2020-10-28T14:25:48+00:00

Apex fallacy, shit... I mean there's something to that but there's a bit of missing history there.

Current custody laws were campaigned for by suffragettes.

Ask any male teacher why there aren't more male teachers, and they *won't* tell you it's because 'men don't like teaching/aren't interested.' They tell you stories of systematic discrimination that'll raise your goddamn hair.

Men's clubs which used to be common are now almost nonexistent, mostly due to discrimination lawsuits.

The Duluth model. Enough said.

So much more.

Basically, what I'm saying is that this isn't just "ignorance" or "men being silent about their problems" or "apex fallacy". I'm saying that, in many Western countries at least, there has been an active effort by feminism for over a century to remove all forms of personal agency from men. Active oppression, not just benign neglect of men's rights.

Though never confuse 'feminist' with 'woman', they are not. Many feminists who are the worst offenders at this are men themselves. Hate the ideology, not the gender.

whatafoolishsquid · 2020-10-26T08:10:23+00:00

Men didn't "decide" the Patriarchy. That's so dumb. Even if we assume the "Patriarchy" as stated exists, it is a product of cultural evolution, invented by no one but reinforced by everyone, including women.

IronJohnMRA · 2020-10-26T12:33:08+00:00

What do you think about these claims?

I think they're bullshit.

rabel111 · 2020-10-26T21:04:14+00:00

"men's problems created by men" is a feminist myth, a slogan, a meme that identifies radical feminists consumed by irrational hatred for people on the basis of their sex.

The statement is based on the obnoxious assumption that men are a unity, a single mind, that's commits acts in unison. This is an assuption that reveals a view of men as all the same. People who view others this way are racist, sexist bigots, who are incapable of seeing individuals.

Frosty-Gate-8094 · 2020-10-24T10:07:29+00:00

It's actually true. Most of the present gynocentric laws are created by male politicians.

Men and boys (who are dominant ) often engage in bullying the weak ones. Nations with strong army bully the weaker nations.

Men are inherently competitive and will instinctively out other males down to get advantage in dating.

This is why the top 1% earners of any population are men. But 90% homeless ones are also men.

The fierce competition between men segregates men towards both the extremes.

Patriarchy or matriarchy, this biological fact is never gonna change.

Yoramus · 2020-10-28T11:57:19+00:00

It’s just stupid.

What men’s problem are you talking about? It really matters, you know. Most of them have also some women to blame.

m0mmyneedsabeer · 2020-10-30T16:37:01+00:00

Victim blaming. That's what it is, plain and simple.

iainmf · 2020-10-24T04:50:42+00:00

If someone is looking for a fight then contradicting them, or making an opposing argument will dig them into their position and reinforce their views. Instead of fighting, approach the conversation like they know something insightful that can help you. Chances are you can learn something, even if it is just a better understanding of their views. If you can find something to agree to, use it. If you can't you can usually turn it around to 'what can we do to help men?'.

EG

"You could be right. If that is the case I'm not sure how we can solve them, do you have any practical ideas? What things should I be putting my effort into?"

Just about anything can be turned back to "How can I/we help men?". For example, we people point out men commit the majority of violent crime. "You're right, I wonder how we can help men before they become criminals?" Or if they claim that women are superior, then you can ask "How can we help men to reduce this disparity and have a more equal society?"

rabel111 · 2020-10-31T04:26:54+00:00

This question reveals an immature and biased mind. It is asked by a person who has already separated the world into an "us vs them" vendetta, where men and women are opposing tribes engaged in some contest.

I don't care who asked this question, but if you believe this question is justified and helpful to men's rights, or women's rights, you need help.

Rockbottom503 · 2020-10-26T16:20:02+00:00

This red pill raw file from Karen straughan probably deals with in a much more eloquent way than I ever could. It's very much all about language. https://youtu.be/n-IHtarCqA4

Shauyy · 2020-10-27T16:43:23+00:00

I like the "toxic masculinity" argument. It's the one thing feminists will talk about in regard to men's problems. When you actually look at it, it's feminists saying that the only problem men face is other men.

JestyerAverageJoe · 2020-10-28T10:45:57+00:00

It proves how much people don't give a shit about men's actual problems and are just looking to blame men for everything.

vincentvang_hoe · 2020-10-29T20:24:12+00:00

Women advocate and can openly talk about and try to fight the stigma about body image issues, mental health issues, sexual abuse, weight issues, normalizing therapy, etc.

a lot of men struggle with these issues as well, but they don’t feel comfortable enough to talk about it bc they grew up to be taught they need to “be a man, toughen up” so talking about these issues might make them feel weak. by participating in patriarchal society, they’re hurting themselves and they don’t even realize it.

don’t some of you wish you could openly talk about your mental health without being shamed? men shouldn’t have to suffer in silence because they don’t want to be shamed for it.... i have so many guy friends that talk to me about depression but would never feel comfortable doing it publically. a lot of men deal with issues but have no one to talk to about it so they to drugs or alcohol to cope. contrary to popular belief men’s suicide rates in the US are higher than women.

i’ll prob get told to shut up tho so i guess that’s as far as i’ll go on that.. hope it helps 🤷🏼‍♀️

halfgayjesus · 2020-11-01T07:06:02+00:00

It's victim blaming,pure and simple

Bluefluorescent · 2020-11-01T08:29:39+00:00

Lmaooooo. If you don’t want to have a child as a man, don’t have sex! If you have sex with a woman there is a risk she will get pregnant, duh. If you have sex with a women and she gets pregnant you may have to raise a child. That’s life. Discuss before you have sex with someone what happens if she gets pregnant. If you don’t like the answer, don’t have sex. If you don’t want any children, don’t have sex! Also, Men’s rights is the most embarrassing movement I have ever heard of besides straight pride parade.

internetuser2345 · 2020-11-03T00:32:41+00:00

You really need to understand that the patriarch was because of biology, had nothing to do with men.

SultanSaatana · 2020-11-06T00:58:23+00:00

There used to be (still is?) a feminist political party in Sweden who said if they were elected would implement a "man tax"- a tax only men would pay which would go towards feminist orgs. The reason they gave for this was "men created problems so men can pay for them".

2020-11-07T14:10:57+00:00

Several fallacies.
1. Assuming that our group is males, and that males' exclusively work for males - which is a projected notion that stems from feminists only working for females. It's an open confession of bias right there.

Since we are expected to have a in-group bias, because they do, they think that we condone and support all actions of other males. Insane stupidity basically.
Protesting in itself, saying that males' issues are not their business, is an open declaration of them NOT being for equality. They are for females, and that's all. Oftentimes, they are also preventing males' rights and welfare, systematically attacking males', or even misandrists.

Asopaso07 · 2020-11-08T01:11:58+00:00

Well if we go back to the beginning, men always controlled religion - the first most powerful influential ideology which is still the case (sadly).

99% of religions were founded by men and they promote other men as prophets, leaders etc. Religion started traditions such as male circumcision, men having to be breadwinners, protectors etc. Things that now weigh heavy on men.

Then you have the military, corporate world, police force, prisons, all flooded by men and controlled by men. Governments are nearly all run by men. You can probably count the number of women who have run countries but 98% is... you guessed it, run by men. So yes, all these powerful institutions and the world's most richest people who control the world's economy are men. SO when women say men have created cultures, traditions, rules, laws (secular or religious) which contribute to male problems, this is what they are getting at.

EDIT: I disagree with the other commenter. I don't think most women see themselves on a separate 'team'. Most women live with men, men who they love or who they are related to. The reason why some women argue that male problems are caused by men is because most men pull this card to silence a woman who is trying to make a point about women's rights. Make a seperate point about men's rights, don't ever do it while someone is explaining their issues. It's bad manners. You wouldn't start going on about your problems if a friend with cancer wanted to talk about their cancer - you listen to them and put your issues aside.

Also, what can a group which has little to no systemic power do about it? Nothing. Women can't solve men's issues because men and patriarchy are too powerful for them to do that.

JStrider228 · 2020-10-30T07:16:33+00:00

Where do you think oppression towards men is coming from? How are they oppressing you?

Ambitious_Kid4857 · 2020-10-31T08:00:58+00:00

Join the movement Men’s Proper Prospective (MGTOW)

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Ambitious_Kid4857 · 2020-10-31T08:59:43+00:00

Join the movement Men’s Proper Prospective (MGTOW)

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DebateAI · 2020-10-31T14:13:35+00:00

Women are increasingly more in positions of power, and they decide in favor of a fellow women much more than a men would do for his fellow men in a men vs women scenario. Just look at the courts.

Men are partly to blame. But placing all blame only on men for problems of women and men are straight up sexism.

SokalDidNothingWrong · 2020-11-01T01:17:53+00:00

It's because stupid feminists confuse "men" and "patriarchy" all the time, and it seems that the smarter feminists aren't too worried about correcting them.

"That's a part of patriarchy" was probably the original line. Even "Big Red" got it right - https://youtu.be/zH_ZryBfCtU?t=26

But then dumbasses recycle it, but eventually change "patriarchy" to "men".

Eventually they end up with some weird idea that "feminism" = women, and "patriarchy" = men.

If you disagree with feminism, you're attacking women, because feminism = women. If a problem is (in their opinion) caused by patriarchy then it's the fault of men.

It's kind of a motte and bailey, if you really push them they'll walk it back like some online racist saying "I didn't mean I hate (race), I just meant (ethnic slur culture)".

Rex-the-pup · 2020-11-02T20:44:57+00:00

I think they're a load of bollocks We sure as hell didn't create the women making men's mental health about women.

Rex-the-pup · 2020-11-05T19:28:25+00:00

Is that so? Then women oppression is from other women and they created their own problems and expect us to take the blame.

playingpoodles · 2020-11-06T22:01:36+00:00

It's the 'both sides of the coins', men are 'toxicly masculine', and have to 'talk about their feelings', but when they do, need to put on 'big boy pants', and stop being a 'delicate flower', etc. Women don't have to fulfill traditional obligations (eg. chastity/faithfulness to husband) but men still do. And yes, 'women's problems are men' and 'men's problems are men'. What's the point of saying, 'men's problems are men', anyway?

To make men shut up and feel bad. Saying, 'men's problems is the patriarchy' is just another way of saying 'men's problems are a fabricated laughingstock unworthy of consideration and only raised by worthless men worthy of ridicule'. So be it, the sooner men realise they're not considered by most women, society, courts, politicians, big tech etc. as deserving of much beyond the right to continue to live, the better.

karvina_42 · 2020-11-08T02:13:42+00:00

Women's problems created by women and blaming it to men. How fair society is these days

running246 · 2020-10-28T07:51:14+00:00

The world would not be a better place if there were matriarchy either.

Ogikay · 2020-10-24T15:00:13+00:00

It’s true, that’s the truth. Men expected to work, pay for dates and food , offer protection for the whole family because that’s what patriarchy is about. For example the reason why women gets more from divorce is because often they don’t work and handle house work with no experience.

Title	“Men’s problems created by men”
Author	PrettyLaughable
Upvotes	218
Comments	224
Date	October 24, 2020 4:14 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/jh2k9k/mens_problems_created_by_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-problems-created-by-men.841828 https://theredarchive.com/post/841828

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