Serious Question here, why do we allow people to argue here with views that oppose our rights?

EmirikolWoker · 2022-07-28T07:33:57+00:00

Freedom of expression is a core part of the MRM - we need to be able to speak, and the silencing of mens' issues is a huge part of the problem. Banning people with dissenting oppinions would be hypocritical.

Besides, it shows a clear distinction between us and our ideological opponents - we are open to discussion, they are not; they suppress what they disagree with, we engage with it and show it to be wrong-headed.

yettobekilledbydeath · 2022-07-28T07:39:50+00:00

Personally I like hearing different opinions. I don't need to hear my opinion spoken (or written) by another person, because I already know it. And mensrights (and probably a few more) is the only ground where we can engage with those people, because in other subs we'd get banned instantly.

Sonic_The_Hamster · 2022-07-28T07:40:53+00:00

Because that is stopping free speech. Removing people because they oppose your views is stopping free speech, banning haters is stopping free speech.

But apart from all that actually engaging with people that have opposing views is good.

It teaches you how to form an argument and let's you know what works.

And

Others that read and don't post can see the difference between a bad and a good argument and whilst you may not change the OPs view you can change the view of fence sitters that you may not even interact with.

Anyone that just outright bans what they dislike is doing exactly the same as is done to many men, silencing them, and you don't win by silencing people. Unless of course you're some sort ot tyrant in a communist society.

AndyBrown65 · 2022-07-28T07:45:41+00:00

In other subs we usually see instant bans so why can't we do the same?
why don't we start banning haters

Simple answer is that we welcome debate, because we do not hate.
Feminists hate debate, because they hate.

Reddit1984Censorship · 2022-07-28T09:11:10+00:00

Free speech is an advantage because the truth is on our side

oflbtbs · 2022-07-28T07:30:59+00:00

Ive noticed them here and there. I mean if theyre trolling then I dont see much value in that, but if they want to argue or debate in good faith (rare) then maybe thats OK.

WiiWynn · 2022-07-28T11:11:20+00:00

Just my personal belief. Women who lurk or even want to participate here are here for any number of reasons. But some are curious. Some don’t quite like the feminist pill they’re taking. At least not everything. They might be wondering why some men they want to have a relationship with are repulsed by them. Or why is it that ‘all men are assholes’, yet she loves her dad and brothers. She might be wondering about the inconsistencies between what’s she told and what she’s observing.

So they might come here for an alternative view. They might try to test some feminist theories and assumptions with us through discussion. We should invite that. Speak civil, but assertively, of our perspective and experiences. Because we’re better than them (fem-nazis). And we should demonstrate that.

Edit: clarification

ConsiderationOdd2929 · 2022-07-28T08:10:20+00:00

Its a lot easier for feminists to hang themselves when you simply give them rope to do it with.

Besides, we're better than that. And better than them. Proven daily.

levelate · 2022-07-28T10:17:17+00:00

because, otherwise, we would be an echo chamber

Darkwolf90 · 2022-07-28T08:33:00+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/user/Spiritual\_Stretch\_35/

This account has been suspended .

GO HOME

No-Satisfaction-2320 · 2022-07-28T10:29:45+00:00

Because then we turn into an echo chamber, and we start becoming the feminists that we oppose.

And also I like to discuss with people with opposing opinions lol.

Ferbuggity · 2022-07-28T07:46:36+00:00

My point being that instead of stopping free speech why don't we start banning haters

Not sure you know what 'free speech' is?

Slibye · 2022-07-28T08:23:13+00:00

Here’s what I believe in theory, if we close our community off from other opinions that we disagree with the subreddit would be considered safe and innocent for a awhile, but in my theory whenever a community closes itself off from other opinions it’ll start to get “corrupted” and go off course on what the subreddit truly should represent with a purpose instead of possibly making another hate subreddit.

We should just keep this open just so we have actual discussions between opposing views for interaction on what each sides see.

bottleblank · 2022-07-28T08:56:20+00:00

I want to engage in dialogue with women, I have no desire to ban and blacklist them, even if we disagree. How can we come to any understanding of each other, or hear each others' points, if we just deny any and all differing opinions?

Many feminist spaces do this to us and it makes no sense. Why should we do that to them? What do we really have to gain from arbitrarily banning differing opinions just on the basis that we don't like hearing them? What insight will that give us, except that we're a bunch of intolerant, closed-off, ignorant bad-faith actors, just like those we observe doing it to us and dislike for it?

"Do unto others" comes to mind. I want relations to improve, I don't want to antagonise and stonewall. I want active, productive discussions with all types of people. If somebody's trolling, well, I'll ignore them as best I can if their contribution isn't productive, but even trolls sometimes spark interesting debate.

Random-Person934 · 2022-07-28T12:53:36+00:00

Because banning does not fix any problems at all. It just buried them and does nothing about them until it's too late.

It is important for us to hear criticism and views that may be different from our own so that we can correct people and clear misconception(for example people who think we are Incels) Alternatively if the criticism is well founded and delivered constructively we can use it to change and fix the affermentioned error.

Freedom of free speech is also an integral part of MRA and has been one of the key players in its success This is because MRA tends to be open and attentive to other people's issues in addition to what it stands for. Here in MRA Feminists can talk to MRA's constructively which allows for compromise and potentially grounds where we can work together, etc. This free speech can also help us get oast our differences and begin working towards a hopefully better future.

ostangestar · 2022-07-28T13:15:51+00:00

Because we don’t oppose free speech like 90% percent of subreddits do

patxiku93 · 2022-07-28T08:16:36+00:00

Why don't you just ignore them? We can't act like the feminist because when we do we'll get banned for sure. Feminists have reddit on the side, we need to be extra nice if we want to even be tolerated.

Just ignore them. If things were more equal I'd be all over using their own tactics against them, but sadly we can't. We have to play smart

Btw, meta discussions should be relegated to r/MensRightsMeta

iainmf · 2022-07-28T10:21:24+00:00

Being wrong about something is the first step to being right about it.

If you want to shut down people for being wrong, they will never change.

welcometothejl · 2022-07-28T10:58:14+00:00

If you believe in what you're saying, you don't have to ban people with differing opinions.

Potato-Murderer · 2022-07-28T17:32:39+00:00

Because free speech is what sets us apart from those feminist subreddits, if we started banning everyone that opposes us, we would be no better then them

Chaos_Therum · 2022-07-28T17:26:20+00:00

Because MRAs tend to believe in universal human rights, and the free market of ideas. Part of making sure you are getting things done is arguing with people. The reason the left is losing is because they refuse to argue with their enemies. They got strong through the 80s and 90s by arguing now that they've just started shutting people down they can't justify themselves.

Brandwein · 2022-07-28T10:41:21+00:00

Our camps are too honest and open with disdain for manipulative and fallacious tactics for their own good sometimes. That is why we are better, but also why we lose. We fight with blunt fencing weapons and cushion our stabs while respecting the rules, while the opponent likes to backstab with poisoned knifes. The ends justify the means are their motto but not ours.

Sudden_Difference500 · 2022-07-28T10:43:17+00:00

Let them speak, here we have the option to answer and correct them if possible. Good thing is they can’t censor the answers.

AspirationsOfFreedom · 2022-07-28T12:30:33+00:00

By whos standar should we censor the opposition?

Thats how you copy a feminist echochamber

bubbybyrd · 2022-07-28T15:37:37+00:00

LOL. "I hate other groups, why can't we be just like them?" 🤡🤡🤡

lordluke10 · 2022-07-28T11:04:41+00:00

I agree that we should ban brigaders and trolls that just shit on men, which are annoyingly common. But the problem with most subs for women is that they turn into echo chambers where new opinions can't be raised. Also men aren't allowed to participate in most female subs, which is just downright sexist. We are, and need to continue to be better than those cults

crabbieinreddit · 2022-07-28T09:07:06+00:00

Because it's not a right thing to do. Simple as that.

Who is to decide if they should tolerate or not other one's opinions? How do you know you are in the position to do so? How do you know they're not in the position to do so? How do you know you know what their reasons to do so are? No one should be entitled to ignore because everyone should be able to defend their standpoint, and if not, why defending it in the first place?

Also, you're not gonna convince haters by not letting them speak and discuss, you're just gonna get them to hate you more.

Huffers1010 · 2022-07-28T10:14:45+00:00

Because refusing to listen to the opposing point of view is the sign of someone who isn't sure of their position.

Also, I quite value being aware of the opposing point of view. It's not always completely mad (though the people who post on reddit are probably madder than the societal average). I genuinely want to know what both sides think so I can hope to form a view that's likely to satisfy everyone. It's an education. If we listen to the opposing point of view, we're more likely to be correct and justified in our own views.

I'm always suspicious of anyone using the word "space." This is not a "men's space." It's a forum. That sort of exclusivity - frankly to the point of outspoken sexism - is what we're trying to avoid.

And in the end, we have to treat them far better than they treat us, and I think that's always been clear. It's not hard; there are hardline feminists on reddit who really do seem to wish actual physical harm on people!

mechajutaro · 2022-07-28T12:24:07+00:00

In other subs we usually see instant bans so why can't we do the same?

We've got entirely too much of that(folks being ejected for "offensive" and "hateful" speech)in our nation as it is

Considering that the number of serious mens spaces on reddit can be counted on one hand why do we tolerate this?

Let's then be prepared to ban everyone, except a vanishingly small number of folks who think they're doing God's work by repeating everything they read over at AVFM and hear on HBR, without ever questioning that shit. This is synonymous with the psychology of university freshmen who are creating safe spaces on campus

My point being that instead of stopping free speech why don't we start banning haters

You're fine with free speech, so long as it's not hate speech. From what side of the political aisle have we heard this one from prior?https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/political-correctness-free-speech-racism-misogyny-university-yale-missouri

2HourCoffeeBreak · 2022-07-28T13:18:49+00:00

We need to be challenged. We could be wrong on something just as easily as the next person. Or just not be seeing all angles. Also, me being a conservative, I know how much it sucks to be insta-banned for challenging ideas or even “facts.”

On the other hand, if someone is in here just spewing vitriol and not looking to have a conversation, yeah they should be banned.

theplatinumway · 2022-07-28T13:55:15+00:00

All views should be allowed whether you like it or not, unless it's intending a Direct harm or act of Violence against any individual or Group. Discussions and Debates should be welcome.

ThirdCrew · 2022-07-28T14:07:07+00:00

You want this to be an echo chamber? That's how you get people to leave.

Rifter0876 · 2022-07-28T14:11:46+00:00

Its even worse than that in other subs. I've been banned from subs ive never posted in just for being a member of this sub.

Exotic_Midnight4652 · 2022-07-28T14:50:49+00:00

We're not dumb fucks unlike every cult sub ( r/witchesvspatriarchy, r/BlatantMisogyny, etc)

We like to listen to people instead of ban them on the first sight of an opinion.

GuineaPig352 · 2022-07-28T14:58:58+00:00

I like it when people who don’t agree with us comment because often times they are just misinformed. I often take that opportunity to introduce them to the Duluth model of domestic violence. Explaining our point of view can lead to productive conversations and ultimately help to Better the mens rights movement

muttonchop1 · 2022-07-28T15:12:52+00:00

By silencing the opposition we create an echo chamber, which is how the opposition got to be so radical

Oz70NYC · 2022-07-28T15:26:53+00:00

Transparency. If he just let this place be an echo chamber we're no better than the rest.

Sergio-C-Marin · 2022-07-28T16:30:49+00:00

Moderators made the rules, is not “ours”. And free speech goes both ways; if not is not free speech. Discussion is something good not something bad. And censoring is unproductive, is way better to just let them speech. Trying to control control people is dumb. You can made your own sub with that rule if you want; but plis chill and don’t start an unnecessary attack on q sub that is not yours. Grow up and stop to try to seduce others with your own believes.

Lanoir97 · 2022-07-28T16:43:02+00:00

That’s what makes here different than there. Opposition is important because it forces us to look at ourselves and consider other viewpoints that can help shape our own. I know I’ve had some real dumb fucking ideas in my head sometimes and someone who disagrees with me points out the absurdity of them and I grow:

Last_Braincell_Cant · 2022-07-28T18:05:37+00:00

I’d say it encourages an open view. Another point is ppl here make useless complaints that have no relevance. Or are just complaining about nothing. Having a counter argument can open yourself up to new solutions to problems.

HELLBENT42 · 2022-07-28T19:52:54+00:00

Because this isn't a feminist sub I suppose

peeknic · 2022-07-28T21:08:18+00:00

It is simple. Do not replicate the wrong doings you complain about. Why adopt the lower standard?

This community should as well react to people being misogynists BECAUSE we are against misandry.

Win your arguments with facts. Let the other one lose their shit... But you better be a fucking example. Banning and canceling is for the weak minds who can't hold a coherent discussion. We have to be better than that.

DavidByron2 · 2022-07-28T17:54:52+00:00

other subs we usually see instant bans

Feminists and other hate movements have to ban because they have no ability to defend their views rationally.

Allowing free speech proves that our opinions are better and truthful.

After all if anything we said was a lie or was flawed any of our opponents only need come over here and say so.

traveller1976 · 2022-07-28T16:36:43+00:00

You can't argue with bigots and misandrists. I've expressed worry that this sub is being infiltrated by those who hate men's rights. I hope not. If they ban and don't permit debate we should too.

d_qureshi · 2022-07-28T10:35:01+00:00

Yeah, they don't let us do that on their subs, time we take matters into our own hands

Fair-Lie7125 · 2022-07-28T10:38:22+00:00

All redditors are soft. This sub is full of soft people, tell someone they are an ass hole and they report you

ignigenaquintus · 2022-07-28T13:44:36+00:00

Because the bast majority of the people that oppose our rights don’t believe they are opposing our rights.

New_Engineering3987 · 2022-07-28T13:45:46+00:00

I got threatened with a ban on this sub for not holding the belief that ftm are truly male, banning opinions like that go against mens rights in most mens views. Therefore it’s best to just let the ideas we disagree with stay on here so we can discuss them together. Well that’s the plan although I just receive hate rather than any actual proper conversation

CrunchyNutFruit · 2022-07-28T13:52:40+00:00

I was just permabanned in another reddit. It was done with a bot. They refuse to tell me which subreddit I'm subscribed to that caused the ban. Of course Reddit admin is zero help.

JayMeadows · 2022-07-28T14:51:59+00:00

Personally, I don't care if you insult me and talk shit.

But once it turns from insult to push and push to shove, then we're going to have a problem.

GeheimerAccount · 2022-07-28T15:07:06+00:00

just because other subs are doing it wrong doesnt mean we have to do it wrong too.

Eliot_Sontar · 2022-07-28T15:28:26+00:00

Simple that shows that we are better thanbsubs like amr or femaledatingadvice

Separate_Ad2581 · 2022-07-28T15:47:31+00:00

Couldn’t say any better

Sintar07 · 2022-07-28T16:08:55+00:00

Many reasons.

It gives us a moral high point on freedom of speech against our opposition.

It helps shield us from devolving to the 'kill all men' levels of echo chamber induced extremism found on opposition subs.

It keeps us up to date on opposition viewpoints and in practice confronting them.

It demonstrates we are not afraid of disagreement.

It exposes any who come to argue to our views. This can potentially help us, as ours are more reasonable and a few may be swayed when they compare what we say to what their subs say.

It exposes those here to their views. This can only help us as it reveals the crazy coming from the other side.

It exposes third parties and lurkers to both sides, which for previously mentioned reasons is still likely to help.

yy98755 · 2022-07-28T16:11:20+00:00

Because your view int necessarily correct.

*I rant here because (insert story/opinion/🌹😵😵

ChadWolf98 · 2022-07-28T16:53:49+00:00

Freedom of speech is very important, not just as law(often cited by the muh private company) people,also as a principle.

Given that the MRM is too small to effectively cancel it would even be counterproductive.

Manux005 · 2022-07-28T17:17:56+00:00

Because unlike the feminism subreddit, this subreddit wants an honest discussion, and let's people have their own opinion.

cmicatfish · 2022-07-28T18:14:54+00:00

alwaysrightusually · 2022-07-28T18:54:23+00:00

Something something echo chamber

g1455ofwater · 2022-07-28T19:20:45+00:00

It's this foolish idea that ends up in men being taken advantage of. You have to analyze the context of situations and react accordingly or you just open yourself up to abuse. Imagine if you made a golf bet with someone and shook on it and promised to pay out to whatever person has the lower score but the other person cheated in a bunch of ways that made them get the lower score, you wouldn't pay that bet out because you "believe in honoring your word and honoring your bet". You would evaluate and understand in that context it makes sense to adjust you behavior because of the context of the situation otherwise you just get abused and taken for a chump. It's the same thing here, holding up this ideal of free speech only on the men's sub while other subs don't do that is playing into misandrists hands and just enables abuse of men.

Edit: Not to mention that this sub doesn't allow total free speech, there are things that are taken off. So to say this sub allows total and complete free speech is untruthful.

awkwarddoggos · 2022-07-28T19:22:25+00:00

I think because the people in this sub don’t live in a echo chamber and are open to discussion

Lightning77Plus · 2022-07-28T19:36:03+00:00

Because it's the right thing to do. Strangling the exchange of ideas would just turn this into another Reddit echo chamber.

We need to be open to outside discourse, even if it comes from a place of misandry and hatred. It's a chance to educate and enlighten those that would seek to suppress our rights.

It's not the easy path, but taking the high road seldom is.

TryingToLearn_17382 · 2022-07-28T21:16:23+00:00

Echo chambers aren't good, and questions are the best way to solidify or change your view. Censoring is stalinist behavior.

AldrichIsDaddy · 2022-07-28T21:17:28+00:00

Because we’re not nazis

Leading_Direction_84 · 2022-07-28T21:33:05+00:00

We cannot stoop to their level.

allmyghtt · 2022-07-28T22:55:48+00:00

Diversity of thought is king.. ...

That is one of the other subs biggest issues

nevermock · 2022-07-28T23:36:33+00:00

There is no point either way on Preddit.

alclarkey · 2022-07-29T00:19:25+00:00

Because we're secure in our cause. We're not threatened by opposing opinions as they're easily debunked.

wtfwasthatdude · 2022-07-29T02:09:19+00:00

The truth doesn’t mind being questioned

SpookieDookie483 · 2022-07-29T03:44:32+00:00

Idk, they wouldn't allow us to do it anywhere else. They actively try to get rid of us. I'd ban them and throw them out. I'll show you freedom of expression when you show it to me.

fgdfghdhj5yeh · 2022-07-29T03:58:42+00:00

who cares? Just dry your tears and take a walk

PeonSupreme · 2022-07-29T14:21:39+00:00

Because we’re not feminists

Title	Serious Question here, why do we allow people to argue here with views that oppose our rights?
Author	Spiritual_Stretch_35
Upvotes	89
Comments	128
Date	July 28, 2022 5:17 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/wa0w3h/serious_question_here_why_do_we_allow_people_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/serious-question-here-why-do-we-allow-people-to.1209243 https://theredarchive.com/post/1209243

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